184 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Celestina wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

I did eventually romance Anders with my Fem-Hawke. I don't know how you ladies feel, but everything about the relationship felt like a total manipulation. Too often it came off like "Either you're with me or against me" from Anders.

To be fair…Anders did warn you about a dozen times that he was doomed, before the relationship became serious. That doesn't excuse his manipulative behavior, but there were "warning signs". Hallucinations, voices in his head, violent tendencies, mood swings. You were just too far in love.

You should have realizd you were in an abusive relationship and sought professional help.  

Exactly.  Anders wasn't exactly hiding his condition and he tells you flat out on multiple occasions it'll end with a brokenhearted Hawke.  We all just wrote it off because it's a fantasy setting and "love conquers all" 99% of the time.  But looking at it from a realistic perspective, Hawke would have no one to blame but him/herself.  Anders warns repeatedly he'll only break her heart in the end and Hawke must actively persue the romance.

Also, he wasn't manipulating Hawke the whole time.  It makes no sense whatsoever for him to be so open about the Justice possession thing, try to warn her off, and then wait for her to make the first move three years later if he was just trying to play her.  It's extremely clear he was genuine but couldn't control Justice.

[Asdara]

Maria Caliban wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Oh, and I romanced her as a FemWarden and got absolutely zero party banter about the romance. That kinda sucked too.

I wouldn't be surprised if a someone who played a FemWarden who romanced Alistiar finds DA 2 lacking compared to someone who played a FamWarden who romanced Leliana. I loved Leliana, but Alistiar was obviously an important part of the plot, and there was an entire drama built around him being king (or not) and the PC being queen or dumped at the end. Plus you could flirt with Zevran and he'd react and there were several banters about your relationship.

While I think all the love interests in DA:O were good, the straight only romances felt more important and seemed to have more content.

In DA II, when I'm facing the Arishok and Isabela burst through the door with the Tome of Kuslin, it feels all sorts of romantic and important. I find it strange that the first time I get an 'Oh! My knight in shinning armor!' moment in fiction is with... Isabela.

Absolutely this - I enjoy it.  I'm straight, engaged, long-term relationship (coming up on 10 living together), but I find the fluidity of the female companion to female Hawke flirtation and romance very inspiring.  The imagination is a wonderful thing and, while I can only speak from experience during the 'experimentation phase,' it felt very natural and had a true-to-life sense to it.  For me, at least.  I am looking forward to when my fiance plays a male Hawke looking for male romance partners and getting to see and hear his impressions of it, if they are similar.  

Leliana wasn't done badly as a female Warden's love interest, but... and I hate to say this, because I did enjoy it... it took for...ev...er.  And you meet her really early on, and she has great dialog with all the stories and the pretty song and you're totally into her, but she's got so many layers to peel away before you are even going to be able to show an interest.  And if you miss a window there... well you better hope there's a glitch in your favor, or you're looking at Zevran down the road, because you've likely shot down Alistair by now since he fumbles his way forward if you just keep giving him dolls for his collection.  ...sorry, that got ranty fast.  

Anyway, I really like a lot of the things they've done with the companions in terms of nuances and fluid conversation - and the voice acting... it is really nice.  Don't get me wrong... I do NOT love the wheel, but it is so nice to hear my part of the conversation (I just replayed DAO and Awakenings this past week for import values).  Greater Accuracy is needed - because saying something I totally meant the opposite of and thought I was choosing the thing I wanted, but not pisses me off to no end.  But hearing both sides of the conversation, IS really a nice perk I would miss now.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?

You could ask that of every, last BioWare love interest.

I can't remember a bioware love interest that didn't have some sort of major malfunction. Some are just more major than others. 

[_Aine_]

The mechanics of how the romances worked in DA2 did a disservice to the writing, I think. For most characters that is. A couple just felt flat, but many...when you played several times, or just explored dialogue itself, were really quite interesting....just difficult to get to know and care about.

The way the *first* game unfolds, you were eager to talk to them more, like a real person, they had interesting things to say, and not ONLY when they wanted you to do something for them. Mods even expanded on this, but they were bonus to an already emotionally and intellectually compelling story that went along with tactical game-play.

Timing is everything they say, and while that might not technically be true, if the timing rules given do NOT leave room for your mind to play along and expand the story (and your involvement WITH that story) then it will leave you wanting.... and not in the way you may *want* a romance in a game to leave you wanting.

In DA:O, I had this feeling of conquest, a game within a game sort of thing. In DA2, it was very much Act 1: 1) do quest. 2) initiate step 1 flirt for romance. 3) Understand you are done for that Act, do not speak to your interest again or they will only give you canned speech.... Act2: repeat steps for Act 1. Act 3: Rinse repeat.

Too scheduled to be intriguing I guess. Random talk brought in a sense of humanity to a fake character. Without it, they seemed robotic despite being well written for what they DO say when they say it. I didn't like the set-up at all in ME2 though either and it was very very similar to DA2 That style of mechanics just essentially put them behind glass. So close, but untouchable.

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?

You could ask that of every, last BioWare love interest.

Eh.  I guess so.  Not possessed, though.  Edit:  And I don't think that a lot of their "issues" qualify as mental illness.  Maybe Leliana, lol

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?

You could ask that of every, last BioWare love interest.

Yup; I love the companions, but all my canon characters is single.

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

Speaking here as a Zevran fan, so not a Leliana nor an Alistair fangirl, but someone who has done all the romances...

Hmmmm, though I know Leliana had a lot of bugs, including one where her declaration is not triggered, it's hard to believe that the conversations she had when beginning to care (especially if you're fooling around with Morrigan or Zevran), when hitting adore, and falling in love are comparable to the few lines that are basically tacked on to the normal conversations to make them into romance conversations with the LIs in DA2. I'm not even crazy about Leliana's romance, but there just is so much to it, as there are to all the romances in DA really. Leliana probably has fewer than Alistair and Morrigan, but she still has quite a few more than the romances in DA2.

Both Leliana's and Alistair's romances have that awkward, "feeling out" conversation where they're trying to see if it's possible that their feelings are returned. When Alistair gives the rose? Urgh, it's beautiful. Or when he kisses the warden for the first time, there's just so much to those conversations.  There seems to be an actual falling in love, and this is important enough to get their own conversations.

Maybe just people prefer the fewer and shorter conversations. There's nothing wrong with that.  DA2 definitely has the squee moments.  

Edit: I do know there are a few extra conversations if in a romance in DA2, but there are fewer and they are shorter.  I don't know.  I did like the DA2 romances, but it seemed like more should happen in a romance that spans 6 3 years.  

Speaking as a Leliana fangirl... I found Merrill and Isabela's romances (I didn't finish Isablea's romance but I have seen how it plays out) to be on par with it. I disagree about the romantic lines being tacked on in conversations in the DA2 romances.

Also, while it's true that there was more content to her romance than in both of the romances above mentioned, the content that was made for the DA2 romances was excellent and for me at least, made up for the disparity in content. Hell, the fact the love making scenes were not cringe worthy this time almost makes them better... ok, that's a stretch of course, but that was one MAJOR improvement in my opinion. So was getting that tender kiss at the end. Yes I know, mods can give you that in Origins, but we're talking vanilla here.

I felt that all those three romances were excellently done and of equal quality.

Regarding that article, seeing how I couldn't care less about Alistair and his gushy moments, I can't really relate to what the author is trying to explain. It's true that Alistair's romance (as well as Morrigan's) was more developed as it was deeply tied into the main story. And given how much drama that romance had, I suppose it's understandable if she doesn't feel the same way about the DA2 romances, although I personally think that Anders' romance matches that one up in terms of drama.

[_Aine_]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?

You could ask that of every, last BioWare love interest.

Eh.  I guess so.  Not possessed, though.  Edit:  And I don't think that a lot of their "issues" qualify as mental illness.  Maybe Leliana, lol

there is a BIG difference between a major-malfunction being what contributes to a sense of "humanness" though and one that just seems like a plot function.   

"we need an evil-doer. Oh, let's warp a loveable but dorky character into a monster.  Oh the angst we shall cause" seems a bit shallow to me.  But, admittedly, this is a sore point for me.     

When the flaw makes them more real, it is a good thing.  When it becomes everything about who and what they are:  not so much. 

Modifié par shantisands, 21 avril 2011 - 01:31 .

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?

You could ask that of every, last BioWare love interest.

Eh.  I guess so.  Not possessed, though.  Edit:  And I don't think that a lot of their "issues" qualify as mental illness.  Maybe Leliana, lol

I wanted to make some sort of sassy reply (preferably mentioning Alistar), but your hate for Leliana is somewhat endearing at this point. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zjarcal, 21 avril 2011 - 01:32 .

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Why would you ever get involved with someone like that, when you go into it knowingly?

You could ask that of every, last BioWare love interest.

Eh.  I guess so.  Not possessed, though.  Edit:  And I don't think that a lot of their "issues" qualify as mental illness.  Maybe Leliana, lol

I wanted to make some sort of sassy reply (preferably mentioning Alistar), but your hate for Leliana is somewhat endearing at this point. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Well, I'm serious.  I think she's got a screw loose.  :innocent:

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, I'm serious.  I think she's got a screw loose.  :innocent:

I think she has a screw loose but she's mostly harmless and has a good heart.

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

Speaking as a Leliana fangirl... I found Merrill and Isabela's romances (I didn't finish Isablea's romance but I have seen how it plays out) to be on par with it. I disagree about the romantic lines being tacked on in conversations in the DA2 romances.

Also, while it's true that there was more content to her romance than in both of the romances above mentioned, the content that was made for the DA2 romances was excellent and for me at least, made up for the disparity in content. Hell, the fact the love making scenes were not cringe worthy this time almost makes them better... ok, that's a stretch of course, but that was one MAJOR improvement in my opinion. So was getting that tender kiss at the end. Yes I know, mods can give you that in Origins, but we're talking vanilla here.

I felt that all those three romances were excellently done and of equal quality.

Regarding that article, seeing how I couldn't care less about Alistair and his gushy moments, I can't really relate to what the author is trying to explain. It's true that Alistair's romance (as well as Morrigan's) was more developed as it was deeply tied into the main story. And given how much drama that romance had, I suppose it's understandable if she doesn't feel the same way about the DA2 romances, although I personally think that Anders' romance matches that one up in terms of drama.

Unless the conversations with Isabela and Merrill are dramatically different, the romance conversations ARE tacked on to the non-romance ones, with a couple of exceptions (sexytime, post sexy time, comfort -- all were awesome).  Fenris' declaration is definitely tacked on to a non-romance conversation.  The flirts are as well.  It's not an insult -- there are just fewer conversations so some of the conversations just end earlier if you're not in a romance.

The Isabela moment where she comes back, while if you're romancing her may be squee, is not romance.  It happens if not in a romance as well.

Does it matter that in Origins the kisses were meant to be there at the Denerim gates?  They ran out of resources, but for Morrigan, Alistair, and Zevran it states clearly that many of the dialogs are supposed to lead to a kiss. I think it was a shame that they weren't there.  

But in Origins, you also could kiss your LI, even in the vanilla game, at times other than scripted events.  That added a lot.  People complained bitterly that they couldn't kiss Leliana/Zevran whenever as you could Morrigan and Alistair.  But still, at camp, you could kiss them.  And it was sweet.

I do think Leliana had the least romance dialog of the Origins romances so it's possible that Merrill and Isabela had as much (well, aside from the additional jealousy convesations).  But even Zevran had more romance specific dialog, and that's on top of the flirty options you could take with him in conversations, than Fenris and Anders.

Also, the lack of Leliana/FemWarden banter may have something to do with feeling there was more there for Isa/Merrill.  I thought it was a shame that there wasn't that banter -- the straight romances definitely had the most. I imagine having them in DA2 added just as much as the banters in DAO added for the other romances.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[Deztyn]

I found it funny when I noticed that taking heart options with Anders ended conversations and actually resulted in learning less about him.

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...
Also, the lack of Leliana/FemWarden banter may have something to do with feeling there was more there for Isa/Merrill.  I thought it was a shame that there wasn't that banter -- the straight romances definitely had the most.

Actually that may be it.

I never had any banters acknowledging the romance, whereas I had plenty of those in DA2. I also had at least one more companion start a conversation regarding the romance. In Origins it was only Morrigan and Alistair (during his gossip convo), while I had Isabela, Anders, and Varric (bugged, but I saw it with the console) all talk to me about my relationship with Merrill.

So my experience of romance in Origins wasn't as rich as yours (in terms of content, not in terms of enjoyment). I suppose that could explain why we feel differenly about this.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 21 avril 2011 - 01:47 .

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Also, the lack of Leliana/FemWarden banter may have something to do with feeling there was more there for Isa/Merrill.  I thought it was a shame that there wasn't that banter -- the straight romances definitely had the most.

Actually that may be it.

I never had any banters acknowledging the romance, whereas I had plenty of those in DA2. I also had at least one more companion start a conversation regarding the romance. In Origins it was only Morrigan and Alistair, while I had Isabela, Anders, and Varric (bugged, but I saw it with the console) all talk to me about my relationship with Merrill.

So my experience of romance in Origins wasn't as rich as yours (in terms of content, not in terms of enjoyment). I suppose that could explain why we feel differenly about this.

Yep, that makes a lot of sense.  I noticed it when romancing Zevran on a male character as there were far fewer banters acknowledging it.  The banters really add so much.

Edit: Do you think having the same number of romance dialogs as there were in DAO and combining that with companion banters acknowledging it would make for an even better romance?  I know the main complaint is, while we still had the banters, we had fewer overall conversations and that made the romances feel far more shallow.  There were also fewer romance banters, at least for Fenris and Anders, than there were for Zevran and Alistair.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 01:49 .

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...
Yep, that makes a lot of sense.  I noticed it when romancing Zevran on a male character as there were far fewer banters acknowledging it.  The banters really add so much.

Edit: Do you think having the same number of romance dialogs as there were in DAO and combining that with companion banters acknowledging it would make for an even better romance?  I know the main complaint is, while we still had the banters, we had fewer overall conversations and that made the romances feel far more shallow.  There were also fewer romance banters, at least for Fenris and Anders, than there were for Zevran and Alistair.

Definitely agreed with the bolded part. That's actually one of the things I personally liked a lot more in DA2, the interaction between companions, both in banters and in some of those scenes where you would see the companions talking to each other before Hawke joins in.

As for your question, it definitely would. I don't deny that there could've (and should've given the seven year timespan) been more conversations with the companions. Again, seeing how you're talking from the viewpoint of someone who mostly romanced Zevran and Alistair (whose romances had more content than FemWarden/Leliana), I think it's quite reasonable that you felt less satisfied with the DA2 romances.

Granted, a romance will only be enjoyable if you actually like the character. On that regard I would enjoy Anders' romance more than Alistair's one, even if it had less content. But of course, that's an entirely subjective matter.

At any rate, I would never say no to more content, so while I'll defend the DA2 romances seeing how much I enjoyed them, I will support any campaign for more content in future romances.

[Nyreen]

Deztyn wrote...

I found it funny when I noticed that taking heart options with Anders ended conversations and actually resulted in learning less about him.

^ This. Hawke says the stupidest things sometimes. <_<

[Maria Caliban]

ejoslin wrote...

The Isabela moment where she comes back, while if you're romancing her may be squee, is not romance.  It happens if not in a romance as well.

I'm not sure that matters.

In Dragon Age II, Hawke falls for a woman who everyone says was no good. It turns out that Isabela was the cause of all the trouble with the Qunari. After helping her find the relic, Isabela ditches Hawke. Hawke has to face the Arishok, who has just murdered the Viscount, and get the qunari out of the city.

Then, at the 11th hour, Isabela returns with the Tome. Isabela decides she cares so much for Hawke that she can't leave her that way.

It's dramatic and it's romantic.

In DA:O, the Warden falls for Leliana and they help Leliana sort out a problem with her mentor.

Oh, I love Leliana, but I don't think the stories can compare at all. That Isabela will return even if she isn't in a relationship with Hawke doesn't matter. Alister can become king if he's not in a relationship. Morrigan will ask for the OGB and then leave if she's not in a relationship.

What matters is that if you are in a relationship with Isabela, it feels wonderfully satisfying when she kicks open that door and swoops in with the book.

[bleetman]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Do you think having the same number of romance dialogs as there were in DAO and combining that with companion banters acknowledging it would make for an even better romance?  I know the main complaint is, while we still had the banters, we had fewer overall conversations and that made the romances feel far more shallow. There were also fewer romance banters, at least for Fenris and Anders, than there were for Zevran and Alistair.

Just to chime in my own thoughts:

Yes. Yes a hundred times over. What irked me the most about DA2's romances was not what was there, but what wasn't there, and the obviousness of the absence - namely, some shred of interaction between two characters who are supposedly romantically involved. Not that I'm expected a relationship simulator here, but Merrill having nothing to say whilst living at Hawke's estate drove me to increasing lengths of frustration.

It's so pleasing to see improvements made in terms of how party members interact and their relationship to each other, showing up at each other's homes and the like, but then Hawke's own interactions have somehow ended up suffering. One step forward, one step backwards.

But then, I'm still in the 'I'd rather have more conversations and a mute main character than fully voiced, with less interaction' camp. It feels a bit 'if wishes were fishes' at times.

Modifié par bleetman, 21 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[_Aine_]

bleetman wrote...

But then, I'm still in the 'I'd rather have more conversations and a mute main character than fully voiced, with less interaction' camp. It feels a bit 'if wishes were fishes' at times.

I really (surprisingly) enjoyed the voiced protagonist aspect of this game, but if I had to choose??? I would choose mute + more over speech + less in a heartbeat.  I hear ya.  

[ejoslin]

Oh, there's no doubt that Isabela's moment is complete squee if you're romancing her. 

I'm also not putting down the romances in either game. It's just that DA2 has fewer romance dialogs, and less of a feeling of a relationship building in my opinion. DA2 has some amazing moments, though -- some incredible dialog. In fact, I would put the squee moments in DA2 in the same category as the squee moments in DAO as far as dialogs go. The difference is in the smaller moments.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 avril 2011 - 02:25 .

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Well, I'm serious.  I think she's got a screw loose.  :innocent:

I think she has a screw loose but she's mostly harmless and has a good heart.

The whole talk about preferring seduction to torture "because it works better," in that little-girl voice, freaked me the hell out.  But generally I agree.

We digress...

I did appreciate the effort at making the kisses more passionate, and I think Anders even got a full-contact visible kiss?  Fenris still usually missed, but all in all the animations were pretty steamy.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 02:52 .

[nightscrawl]

Did none of you ever romance Alistair as a human MAGE? If you make the right choices, you can make him king and stay together. Or of course, you don't have to make him king at all, he can stay with the Wardens if you make Anora queen, and you still stay together. Becoming queen is a horrible idea to me, so I was happy to find the alternative.

As far as DA2 relationships go, Fenris is by far my fave. He doesn't want anything from you, he just is who he is, all his problems included. Someone in another thread mentioned that it was unfortunate that you don't get to see your characters "fall in love." I agree with this 100%, and this is the main issue I have. I think the ability to have a conversation anytime in DAO really helped with that illusion. On the other hand, you do get to see the relationships your companions develop with each other through party banter, and how that evolves over time. Some of the stuff between Sebastian and Fenris, and Sebastian and Anders is very interesting.

Unfortunately, with the DA2 romances it just seems like the person likes me because we share similar opinions (friendship romance - I have yet to do a rival romance), and helping him/her out in their personal quests.


"We should move on," makes me sad .

Addai67 wrote...

... and I think Anders even got a full-contact visible kiss? Fenris still usually missed, but all in all the animations were pretty steamy.

Yes indeed! Anders's animation team gets an A+ for those.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 21 avril 2011 - 03:00 .