184 réponses à ce sujet

[Viyu]

Plaintiff wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

Celestina wrote...
Aw, that stinks. Despite all its flaws, I was very proud of the fact that DA2 made its romances gay-friendly. Like the article said, very forward-thinking, especially in comparison to other games.

True, though it couldn't been handled better.  I felt that each character should've had a set sexuality, but also have the option of conversion through dialog and interaction.  Unless of course the character in question is as loose as isabella, whom I'd have reservations leaving alone with my mabari.

I think that has the potential to be extremely offensive, depending on how that would manifest in-game. Would a character announce it verbally? "Oh Hawke, you've turned me straight!"

Sexuality is a pretty touchy subject and I can see a lot of people getting pissed at the idea that it's just something you can change or "fix" by flirting enough. I think it's a lot safer (and easier in terms of development) to just make all romances available to both genders from the outset.

I actually figured they were all bi. But thats not what gets me. What gets me is that they pretend that the bi element doesn't exist if you're in a heterosexual relationship. If anything I believe its trying too hard to be straight friendly, and presumes that straight people can't like bi characters. Take Anders. Karl obviously meant a lot to him, his death made him rather cathartic. Anders never dared to fall in love because of the chantry but he took that risk with Karl. We never hear it in the femhawke playthrough and we miss out on the nature of Karl and Anders' friendship to ever give a damn about the pain he probably went through. We learn about Zevran as a character when he talks about the lover he was forced to kill. We learn about Alistair as a character, and it allows the pain in losing his friend Duncan seem real because he allows the player to see that aspect of his character. Whereas killing Karl seemed like a means to an end. That end simply being to get Anders in our party.

It TOTALLY feels like they were trying to protect the straight players from "offensive" material in the same way they try to protect us all from nudity now. In my opinon, it feels like they threw LGBT fans a chewed up bone they should be "greatful" for, and people praise BioWare for giving them "meat". <_<

I think it shouldn't be approached as a matter of fixing someone straight. if they're all bi, they're just in a relationship with the opposite sex for the moment.

Modifié par Viyu, 23 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[jds1bio]

Plaintiff wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

Celestina wrote...
Aw, that stinks. Despite all its flaws, I was very proud of the fact that DA2 made its romances gay-friendly. Like the article said, very forward-thinking, especially in comparison to other games.

True, though it couldn't been handled better.  I felt that each character should've had a set sexuality, but also have the option of conversion through dialog and interaction.  Unless of course the character in question is as loose as isabella, whom I'd have reservations leaving alone with my mabari.

I think that has the potential to be extremely offensive, depending on how that would manifest in-game. Would a character announce it verbally? "Oh Hawke, you've turned me straight!"

Sexuality is a pretty touchy subject and I can see a lot of people getting pissed at the idea that it's just something you can change or "fix" by flirting enough. I think it's a lot safer (and easier in terms of development) to just make all romances available to both genders from the outset.

Ok, but whatever happened to certain content being available only to certain roles (like the old trope the "thieves guild")?  I think that is still ok to have in RPGs.  Otherwise they will end up taking the mystery out of the relationships, if they expect every love interest in every future game to be available to all roles and all genders.  Someone who is straight shouldn't be offended if a character just happens to be gay, and vice-versa.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

jds1bio wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

True, though it couldn't been handled better.  I felt that each character should've had a set sexuality, but also have the option of conversion through dialog and interaction.  Unless of course the character in question is as loose as isabella, whom I'd have reservations leaving alone with my mabari.

I think that has the potential to be extremely offensive, depending on how that would manifest in-game. Would a character announce it verbally? "Oh Hawke, you've turned me straight!"

Sexuality is a pretty touchy subject and I can see a lot of people getting pissed at the idea that it's just something you can change or "fix" by flirting enough. I think it's a lot safer (and easier in terms of development) to just make all romances available to both genders from the outset.

It's easier to have them both go ways perhaps, but why safer? NPCs don't have to change orientations just to suit the PC, and I'd find it more believable if I was, say, hitting on Merrill as a guy and she said she was flattered but only interested in women. Where is the shame or controversy in a single gender orientation? Such realism and characterisation is simply deemed inconvenient by the playerbase, who want to be able to romance everyone and get upset if they prefer an NPC who just isn't into them.

[Serelir]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

True, though it couldn't been handled better.  I felt that each character should've had a set sexuality, but also have the option of conversion through dialog and interaction.  Unless of course the character in question is as loose as isabella, whom I'd have reservations leaving alone with my mabari.

I think that has the potential to be extremely offensive, depending on how that would manifest in-game. Would a character announce it verbally? "Oh Hawke, you've turned me straight!"

Sexuality is a pretty touchy subject and I can see a lot of people getting pissed at the idea that it's just something you can change or "fix" by flirting enough. I think it's a lot safer (and easier in terms of development) to just make all romances available to both genders from the outset.

It's easier to have them both go ways perhaps, but why safer? NPCs don't have to change orientations just to suit the PC, and I'd find it more believable if I was, say, hitting on Merrill as a guy and she said she was flattered but only interested in women. Where is the shame or controversy in a single gender orientation? Such realism and characterisation is simply deemed inconvenient by the playerbase, who want to be able to romance everyone and get upset if they prefer an NPC who just isn't into them.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm still glad that they didn't slant DA2 toward one preference and/or gender or another. Fact is, people would make mods that switch the orientation of all the characters anyway. Maybe they should just make the romances more difficult. I think the rivalry romances headed in that direction, but there's room for improvement.

[Rifneno]

Celestina wrote...
LOL! Now how am I supposed to romance future Bioware characters without having those images stuck in my head?!!! Pixel sex, oh dear...

It could be worse.  Did you know they had pornographic games as far as back as the Atari?  Fortunately the graphics were so terrible you couldn't even tell what was going on.

22nd MadJack wrote...

True, though it couldn't been handled better.  I felt that each character should've had a set sexuality, but also have the option of conversion through dialog and interaction.  Unless of course the character in question is as loose as isabella, whom I'd have reservations leaving alone with my mabari.

O_o  Like, have it so Hawke can talk a straight character into being gay for him/her?  Wordsmiths at Webster's are feverishly working on a new word right now to describe exactly how bad an idea this is.  No current word begins to suffice.

Viyu wrote...

I actually figured they were all bi. But thats not what gets me. What gets me is that they pretend that the bi element doesn't exist if you're in a heterosexual relationship. If anything I believe its trying too hard to be straight friendly, and presumes that straight people can't like bi characters. Take Anders. Karl obviously meant a lot to him, his death made him rather cathartic. Anders never dared to fall in love because of the chantry but he took that risk with Karl. We never hear it in the femhawke playthrough and we miss out on the nature of Karl and Anders' friendship to ever give a damn about the pain he probably went through. We learn about Zevran as a character when he talks about the lover he was forced to kill. We learn about Alistair as a character, and it allows the pain in losing his friend Duncan seem real because he allows the player to see that aspect of his character. Whereas killing Karl seemed like a means to an end. That end simply being to get Anders in our party.

It TOTALLY feels like they were trying to protect the straight players from "offensive" material in the same way they try to protect us all from nudity now. In my opinon, it feels like they threw LGBT fans a chewed up bone they should be "greatful" for, and people praise BioWare for giving them "meat". <_<

An excellent point.  It especially matters with Karl like you said.  His hatred for the templars is significantly more understandable if you factor in that they basically stole his lover's soul and in the end Anders was forced to put him to the murderknife himself.  That's a huge difference from merely a good friend.  And he never really expresses how difficult it must've been because of that.  If I had to "pull the plug" on a good friend, it'd really suck, but I don't think it'd be a life-changing thing.  If it was a love though... I'm not sure I could even do it, let alone what it would do to me.  But Anders has to just carry on as if Karl was a penpal because we can't put spotlight a gay relationship or something.  Bah.  I don't know why they toned things down for 2...  In DAO Leliana was pretty clear about Marojolaine regardless of the Warden, Zevran still hit on anything that moved...

[22nd MadJack]

Rifneno wrote...
O_o  Like, have it so Hawke can talk a straight character into being gay for him/her?  Wordsmiths at Webster's are feverishly working on a new word right now to describe exactly how bad an idea this is.  No current word begins to suffice.

A word like 'reality' would suffice.  Mayhaps you have had a different youth, but I grew up in a world where you are straight until proven gay.  You may guffaw at the 'coming out' story, but for many it is a powerful and evocative tale, a tale that has often featured in film, television and literature (to critical acclaim).  Certainly if BioWare could write it, kudos to them.  But with such narrative stinkers as 'All that Remains' I would hasten to agree that this may be beyond BioWare's abilities.  

Understand, I believe a person's sexuality is an integral part of their character.  It is more human, more real, more believable.  The complacency that BioWare presents in DA2 does not resemble the complexities of sexuality as I have experienced it.  However, choice is an important part of a player's enjoyment, as is the ability to achieve that choice. In this regard, if my Lesbian friend wishes to romance Alistair with her Male Warden, allowing her to fulfill this dream provides satisfaction, and that satisfaction is all the more potent if there is a little bit of conflict along the way.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 23 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[Plaintiff]

22nd MadJack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
O_o  Like, have it so Hawke can talk a straight character into being gay for him/her?  Wordsmiths at Webster's are feverishly working on a new word right now to describe exactly how bad an idea this is.  No current word begins to suffice.

A word like 'reality' would suffice.  Mayhaps you have had a different youth, but I grew up in a world where you are straight until proven gay.  You may guffaw at the 'coming out' story, but for many it is a powerful and evocative tale, a tale that has often featured in film, television and literature (to critical acclaim).  Certainly if BioWare could write it, kudos to them.  But with such narrative stinkers as 'All that Remains' I would hasten to agree that this may be beyond BioWare's abilities.  

Understand, I believe a person's sexuality is an integral part of their character.  It is more human, more real, more believable.  The complacency that BioWare presents in DA2 does not resemble the complexities of sexuality as I have experienced it.  However, choice is an important part of a player's enjoyment, as is the ability to achieve that choice. In this regard, if my Lesbian friend wishes to romance Alistair with her Male Warden, allowing her to fulfill this dream provides satisfaction, and that satisfaction is all the more potent if there is a little bit of conflict along the way.

"Coming out" as a homosexual is not the same as being magically turned into one by the power of flirting. Far be it from me to decry anyone's sexuality as invalid, but in my general experience, a few double entendres won't magically create desire where there was none before.

I would've loved to romance Alistair as a male warden, but the idea of having to "turn him gay" through, say, a specific line of dialogue is nonsense and carries all sorts of negative implications about sexuality. If it worked the other way, with a previously gay character being magically turned straight, you can bet that it would carry negative implications for homosexual players. It undermines sexuality by suggesting that it's a frivolous thing that people can discard when it becomes inconvenient, or worse, that a homosexual is only homosexual because "they haven't found the right man/woman yet".

I'm fully in support of players being able to romance any NPC as any gender, but why create a special hoop players have to jump through in order to force a sudden shift in sexuality? Why not just make them all bisexual, and thus available to all players from the outset? It's not the most realistic setup, to be sure, but it offers the freedom of choice that is so important and it's more realistic than having Alistair impulsively gush that a particular line of dialogue has opened him up to the pleasures of manlove (although to be honest, in some of the discussions at party camp, I was half-expecting him to do exactly that).

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[22nd MadJack]

Plaintiff wrote...
"Coming out" as a homosexual is not the same as being magically turned into one by the power of flirting. Far be it from me to decry anyone's sexuality as invalid, but in my general experience, a few double entendres won't magically create desire where there was none before.

I would've loved to romance Alistair as a male warden, but the idea of having to "turn him gay" through, say, a specific line of dialogue is nonsense and carries all sorts of negative implications about sexuality. If it worked the other way, with a previously gay character being magically turned straight, you can bet that it would carry negative implications for homosexual players. It undermines sexuality by suggesting that it's a frivolous thing that people can discard when it becomes inconvenient, or worse, that a homosexual is only homosexual because "they haven't found the right man/woman yet".

I'm fully in support of players being able to romance any NPC as any gender, but why create a special hoop players have to jump through in order to force a sudden shift in sexuality? Why not just make them all bisexual, and thus available to all players from the outset? It's not the most realistic setup, to be sure, but it offers the freedom of choice that is so important and it's more realistic than having Alistair impulsively gush that a particular line of dialogue has opened him up to the pleasures of manlove (although to be honest, in some of the discussions at party camp, I was half-expecting him to do exactly that).

Romance in DA2 is ... simplistic at best (eg ROMANCE = (FLIRT >1) +(FRI/RIV>50)).  By extension, and reference to my last post, so long as this ... rigid romance is in place, I do not believe BioWare capable of creating a system more complex which would incorporate the 'conversion' suggestion.  I am also hesitant to use the word 'convert' now, they do not convert, they fall in love.

The suggestion is not 'real' either, people generally go through life with a set sexuality.  However, it is more realistic than the current set up.  Also, it is more prone to stepping on toes, as you point out. Consider though, I did not give specifics on how these romance options would be unlocked, so please do not jump to the worst conclusion (ie magic line of dialog).  There would be no magic switch.  There would be situation, conflict, resolution.  It would be complex, it would easily go awry, but in the end it would be powerful.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 23 avril 2011 - 12:38 .

[thermalware]

Wow that's disgusting. why would anyone romance anders? I kicked him out of my group when he killed that girl. infact I wanted to kill him long before he showed up towards the end and murdered everyone

[Plaintiff]

thermalware wrote...

Wow that's disgusting. why would anyone romance anders? I kicked him out of my group when he killed that girl. infact I wanted to kill him long before he showed up towards the end and murdered everyone

Wow it's just a game, calm down. It's very easy to save Ella, in which event there is no reason to kick Anders off the team. And personally, I find him far more appealing and interesting as a character than any of the other romance options.

[Rifneno]

thermalware wrote...

Wow that's disgusting. why would anyone romance anders? I kicked him out of my group when he killed that girl. infact I wanted to kill him long before he showed up towards the end and murdered everyone

Approx 30% of the threads seem to be about Anders-based nerdrage.  Perhaps you could try using one of them instead of defiling this one.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Tuilinn Celeborne wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but I'm still glad that they didn't slant DA2 toward one preference and/or gender or another.

Many people were, I know, and I'm happy for them.

Fact is, people would make mods that switch the orientation of all the characters anyway.

This is quite possibly true, but just because the majority of players want something specific in the game...that isn't always a valid reason for the devs to do it. All the characters would have nude models available ingame if mod popularity was all it took, and I understand teh nekkid is what's usually the most downloaded addon.

I assume the Dragon Age franchise wants to maintain a certain level of integrity, and Majority Rule isn't always the way to go about it.

But I also know Bioware are never going to please everyone no matter what they do. XD I think realistic gender preferences across characers are better than 'open to all', and others will disagree. Way of the world.

Maybe they should just make the romances more difficult. I think the rivalry romances headed in that direction, but there's room for improvement.

More difficult means more dialogue I think. I am always a fan of more dialogue, but I don't know if Bioware is interested in making NPC chatter deeper than what it was in DA2 moving forward, unfortunately. :/ I guess we'll see.

[Maria Caliban]

Rifneno wrote...

I'm not that picky, the choices are just meh.

You are picky.

But there's nothing wrong with being picky.

[Nyreen]

Rifneno wrote...

thermalware wrote...

Wow that's disgusting. why would anyone romance anders? I kicked him out of my group when he killed that girl. infact I wanted to kill him long before he showed up towards the end and murdered everyone

Approx 30% of the threads seem to be about Anders-based nerdrage.  Perhaps you could try using one of them instead of defiling this one.

Rifneno, thank you. 

Modifié par Celestina, 23 avril 2011 - 06:29 .

[jds1bio]

But Geekmom addresses Anders directly. My rage against Anders isn't nerd-based. It's based on knowing that in subsequent playthroughs his actions will never change. In fairness to Anders, he does warn Hawke not to go there with the relationship. My first time through I just didn't realize that he would be right about that.

[BlueMew]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

True, though it couldn't been handled better.  I felt that each character should've had a set sexuality, but also have the option of conversion through dialog and interaction.  Unless of course the character in question is as loose as isabella, whom I'd have reservations leaving alone with my mabari.

I think that has the potential to be extremely offensive, depending on how that would manifest in-game. Would a character announce it verbally? "Oh Hawke, you've turned me straight!"

Sexuality is a pretty touchy subject and I can see a lot of people getting pissed at the idea that it's just something you can change or "fix" by flirting enough. I think it's a lot safer (and easier in terms of development) to just make all romances available to both genders from the outset.

It's easier to have them both go ways perhaps, but why safer? NPCs don't have to change orientations just to suit the PC, and I'd find it more believable if I was, say, hitting on Merrill as a guy and she said she was flattered but only interested in women. Where is the shame or controversy in a single gender orientation? Such realism and characterisation is simply deemed inconvenient by the playerbase, who want to be able to romance everyone and get upset if they prefer an NPC who just isn't into them.

Of course it is deemed incovenient. Because it's incovenient! If all / nearly all companions had a single gender orientation, you can't simply go looking for love someplace else. It's a game. There's just not enough companions, not when you still want game room for some decent banter with everyone. You'd be stuck with whoever suited your own, much like us poor girls were stuck with the choice between Anomen and Anomen in ye old days. Thanks for bringing that up again, ouch.

Anyway, in order to fulfill that wish, you pretty much have to sabotage the game for all those people who don't particularly want it. So it's not to 'suit the PC...' it's to suit the player, and since my PC is not actually real, I'm quite happy that it suits me.

Modifié par BlueMew, 23 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

BlueMew wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

It's easier to have them both go ways perhaps, but why safer? NPCs don't have to change orientations just to suit the PC, and I'd find it more believable if I was, say, hitting on Merrill as a guy and she said she was flattered but only interested in women. Where is the shame or controversy in a single gender orientation? Such realism and characterisation is simply deemed inconvenient by the playerbase, who want to be able to romance everyone and get upset if they prefer an NPC who just isn't into them.

Of course it is deemed incovenient. Because it's incovenient! If all / nearly all companions had a single gender orientation, you can't simply go looking for love someplace else. It's a game. There's just not enough companions, not when you still want game room for some decent banter with everyone. You'd be stuck with whoever suited your own, much like us poor girls were stuck with the choice between Anomen and Anomen in ye old days. Thanks for bringing that up again, ouch.

Wow, you had that big a problem with Anomen being the only romance choice? I had no issue dumping him for being annoying, and no problem playing the game through sans romance. If anything irked me in BG2 it was the lack of equality, with male PCs getting no fewer than three romance options while females just got 1. At least we're on par now with DA.

So we'd be stuck with whoever suited us? Or we could *gasp* pick no one to fill the empty void of our PC's heart? Big deal. I'd rather RPG characters be their own characters than completely designed to fit a Hawke mold. At least then I'd know "Anders/Alistair is bi for good reason and it makes sense for his character" rather than "Anders/Alistair is bi because the fans would whine otherwise."

Anyway, in order to fulfill that wish, you pretty much have to sabotage the game for all those people who don't particularly want it. So it's not to 'suit the PC...' it's to suit the player, and since my PC is not actually real, I'm quite happy that it suits me.

So you're saying the game wasn't just sabotaged for the people who didn't want it, eh?

Fair enough. <_<


Edit: Next they should just remove the possibility of dying. How inconvenient is it having to reload the game all the time?

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 24 avril 2011 - 02:41 .

[dantares83]

i kind of agree with the writer... it just seems much more in DAO

[BlueMew]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Wow, you had that big a problem with Anomen being the only romance choice? I had no issue dumping him for being annoying, and no problem playing the game through sans romance. If anything irked me in BG2 it was the lack of equality, with male PCs getting no fewer than three romance options while females just got 1. At least we're on par now with DA.

No, my favourite character was in fact male and didn't romance anyone. They didn't fit him. What was groanworthy about Ano was the inequality AND the fact that apparently someone somewhere thought that this annoying little ****** was worthwhile enough.

So we'd be stuck with whoever suited us? Or we could *gasp* pick no one to fill the empty void of our PC's heart?

Like I said. I can, I did. But if you implement the option, why go to great runarounds and obstacles to prevent so many people from fully enjoying it? For realism? For art's sake?
As far as I know, a certain lack of realism is what keeps us drawn back to games like this.

Big deal. I'd rather RPG characters be their own characters than completely designed to fit a Hawke mold.

Well, that's it isn't it... they are not really their own. They're fictional, and there is a degree you can and should make them fit into a game, suit the main character and so on. Computer games are for a big part meant to be entertaining, not necessarily works of art or realism.

At least then I'd know "Anders/Alistair is bi for good reason and it makes sense for his character" rather than "Anders/Alistair is bi because the fans would whine otherwise."

*shrug* why not both.

So you're saying the game wasn't just sabotaged for the people who didn't want it, eh?

Fair enough. <_<

I don't think it was. No one stops anyone from thinking Merrill or Fenris or Anders is woman or man or bi-oriented, well, Isabela's Isabela, but there's room for that too, no?
I've always found it easier to expand my own mind than find new ways to limit others.

Edit: Next they should just remove the possibility of dying. How inconvenient is it having to reload the game all the time?

...yeah. Well, that's so far off that it doesn't really warrant a comment. Anyway, the people who think this already play World of Warcraft.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

[quote]BlueMew wrote...

No, my favourite character was in fact male and didn't romance anyone. They didn't fit him. What was groanworthy about Ano was the inequality AND the fact that apparently someone somewhere thought that this annoying little ****** was worthwhile enough.[/quote]

Some people really liked him. If you didn't, and you didn't like the female LI's either, how would making them available to both genders solve anything? There are people who played DA2 who didn't like any of the romance options.

You can't satisfy everyone, and I don't think the game should TRY to satisfy everyone.

[quote]But if you implement the option, why go to great runarounds and obstacles to prevent so many people from fully enjoying it? For realism? For art's sake?
As far as I know, a certain lack of realism is what keeps us drawn back to games like this.[/quote]

There's game realism, and then there's human realism. And yes, there's also art.

[quote]Well, that's it isn't it... they are not really their own. They're fictional, and there is a degree you can and should make them fit into a game, suit the main character and so on. Computer games are for a big part meant to be entertaining, not necessarily works of art or realism.[/quote]

It's ok, I understand that a more realistic portrayal isn't interesting to you. You're hardly alone.

[quote][quote]At least then I'd know "Anders/Alistair is bi for good reason and it makes sense for his character" rather than "Anders/Alistair is bi because the fans would whine otherwise."[/quote]
*shrug* why not both.[/quote]

Integrity?

Or do you think altering every creative decision to suit mob rule and please the vocal fans is a good idea?

[quote]
No one stops anyone from thinking Merrill or Fenris or Anders is woman or man or bi-oriented, well, Isabela's Isabela, but there's room for that too, no?
I've always found it easier to expand my own mind than find new ways to limit others.[/quote]

Really? But it was the characters who were limited, which is part of my objection. You only hear about Anders' relationship with Karl if the PC is male, for instance. Why was it cut for a female? To not offend? So that they would think he isn't or was never into other men? I thought it was a brilliant bit of background, and was upset I didn't hear it as a female PC because it added even more emotion to the fact that Karl had just been made Tranquil by the Templars and killed.

Why the sudden limitation?


[quote][quote]
Edit: Next they should just remove the possibility of dying. How inconvenient is it having to reload the game all the time?
[/quote]
...yeah. Well, that's so far off that it doesn't really warrant a comment. Anyway, the people who think this already play World of Warcraft.[/quote][/quote]

Never touched it, and never will.

Maybe I should have used a dialogue wheel icon for that comment.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 25 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[BlueMew]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Some people really liked him. If you didn't, and you didn't like the female LI's either, how would making them available to both genders solve anything? There are people who played DA2 who didn't like any of the romance options.

I DID like them, but my protagonist was way too much in love with his magic to romance anyone. Anyway, if you make them available to both genders, you do improve possibilities.

You can't satisfy everyone, and I don't think the game should TRY to satisfy everyone.

But if you implement the option, why go to great runarounds and obstacles to prevent so many people from fully enjoying it? For realism? For art's sake?
As far as I know, a certain lack of realism is what keeps us drawn back to games like this.

There's game realism, and then there's human realism. And yes, there's also art.

That's right, you can't satisfy everyone. But catering to a realistic / artistic minority, however genuine in their intent, just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

It's ok, I understand that a more realistic portrayal isn't interesting to you. You're hardly alone.

Ooo! I finally get to be a shameless crowd follower! That's a first. *goes offline to read Twilight... uh, then again, maybe not*

Integrity?

Or do you think altering every creative decision to suit mob rule and please the vocal fans is a good idea?

You seem to be pretty vocal, and you don't seem pleased
What I meant was you can have a degree of integrity while still trying to please. 100% integrity, that's not something to strive for in something as interactive as a computer game. You'd need a one-way medium for that.

 But it was the characters who were limited, which is part of my objection. You only hear about Anders' relationship with Karl if the PC is male, for instance. Why was it cut for a female? To not offend? So that they would think he isn't or was never into other men? I thought it was a brilliant bit of background, and was upset I didn't hear it as a female PC because it added even more emotion to the fact that Karl had just been made Tranquil by the Templars and killed.

I think that doesn't have much to do with limiting players by offering fixed gender orientation romances. 
I cannot say I was actually upset that this scene was cut if you play female, but I was puzzled, yes, and I agree with you fully that it still should've been there. It seems to me it brings just that bit more depth to Anders' Templar hatred.

Anyway, I get the feeling we're going off topic here 
Sorry people. 

[Viyu]

Plaintiff wrote...

22nd MadJack wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
O_o  Like, have it so Hawke can talk a straight character into being gay for him/her?  Wordsmiths at Webster's are feverishly working on a new word right now to describe exactly how bad an idea this is.  No current word begins to suffice.

A word like 'reality' would suffice.  Mayhaps you have had a different youth, but I grew up in a world where you are straight until proven gay.  You may guffaw at the 'coming out' story, but for many it is a powerful and evocative tale, a tale that has often featured in film, television and literature (to critical acclaim).  Certainly if BioWare could write it, kudos to them.  But with such narrative stinkers as 'All that Remains' I would hasten to agree that this may be beyond BioWare's abilities.  

Understand, I believe a person's sexuality is an integral part of their character.  It is more human, more real, more believable.  The complacency that BioWare presents in DA2 does not resemble the complexities of sexuality as I have experienced it.  However, choice is an important part of a player's enjoyment, as is the ability to achieve that choice. In this regard, if my Lesbian friend wishes to romance Alistair with her Male Warden, allowing her to fulfill this dream provides satisfaction, and that satisfaction is all the more potent if there is a little bit of conflict along the way.

"Coming out" as a homosexual is not the same as being magically turned into one by the power of flirting. Far be it from me to decry anyone's sexuality as invalid, but in my general experience, a few double entendres won't magically create desire where there was none before.

I would've loved to romance Alistair as a male warden, but the idea of having to "turn him gay" through, say, a specific line of dialogue is nonsense and carries all sorts of negative implications about sexuality. If it worked the other way, with a previously gay character being magically turned straight, you can bet that it would carry negative implications for homosexual players. It undermines sexuality by suggesting that it's a frivolous thing that people can discard when it becomes inconvenient, or worse, that a homosexual is only homosexual because "they haven't found the right man/woman yet".

I'm fully in support of players being able to romance any NPC as any gender, but why create a special hoop players have to jump through in order to force a sudden shift in sexuality? Why not just make them all bisexual, and thus available to all players from the outset? It's not the most realistic setup, to be sure, but it offers the freedom of choice that is so important and it's more realistic than having Alistair impulsively gush that a particular line of dialogue has opened him up to the pleasures of manlove (although to be honest, in some of the discussions at party camp, I was half-expecting him to do exactly that).

I don't think you'd necessarily have to turn a character straight. I thought I mentioned this before. If a strictly gay character likes someone of the opposite sex but still likes people from their own means at most they've gone bi, not straight. Same could be said if someone whose strictly straight becomming bi.

[22nd MadJack]

Viyu wrote...
I don't think you'd necessarily have to turn a character straight. I thought I mentioned this before. If a strictly gay character likes someone of the opposite sex but still likes people from their own means at most they've gone bi, not straight. Same could be said if someone whose strictly straight becomming bi.

Yes, I unfortunately misused the term 'convert'.  My desire is to see thematical elements revolving around falling in love and overcoming the boundries of gender to do so.  It's not about 'converting' it's about falling in love.

Modifié par 22nd MadJack, 25 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[ReallyRue]

I don't think I'll ever quite understand why Alistair is supposed to be the pinnacle of the romancable male character.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ReallyRue wrote...

I don't think I'll ever quite understand why Alistair is supposed to be the pinnacle of the romancable male character.

It's Garrus.