92 réponses à ce sujet

[nekhbet]

I thought Anders' mental illness analogy was very clear. It's kinda hinted at in Awakenings, when he tells you about his year in solitary confinement. That's a solid base (ha) for a later mental breakdown.

Enjoyed both articles.

[Apathy1989]

Interesting read thanks.

Still have the issue of using blood magic without consequence in front of templars though.

[silver-crescent]

Interesting article yes. I had no idea such a site even existed though, amazing how seriously some people take games (and I don't mean this in a negative way)

[Leanansidhe]

Really excellent article, Maria.  Thanks so much for posting it.

It's nice to see something positve said about the game, for once.  I was beginning to believe I was the only person in the world who actually liked it.

Every time some idiot accuses the writers of laziness, I just have to metaphorically slam my head into my desk.  Obviously most players missed some things.  To caught up over the fact that they have a junk tab in their inventory now, I guess.  Another example of not seeing the forest for the trees.

[Addai]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Camenae wrote...

I wasn't aware people have been criticizing DA2's portrayal of mental illness. Link to what those critics are saying?

At the end of this article. I believe Jennifer (Anders' writer) posted in the comment section about mental illness as well.

I feel so stupid. I have never once tried to look at Anders' character as someone who suffers from a mental illness, but it fits perfectly. I mean it doesn't excuse what he does but it offers a much more insightful perspective on his character and what his struggle must be like. Thank you for that link.

So... they're actually offended that mental illness is a) not presented as a positive thing- WTH? and you can't cure people?    What are they picturing, a little talk therapy?

And someone please explain what's supposed to be so egregious about this:

Something that occurred to me after this published. I was disappointed when I discovered that stripping my male Hawke of his armor merely placed him in pin-striped pants without a top. Doing the same with Lady Hawke put her in panties and a bra. While much guffawing was done over the awkwardness of the undergarments in Origins, this approach to it seemed a slap in the face.

I just can't keep up with everything I'm supposed to be offended about.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 02:34 .

[silver-crescent]

Yes it is quite ridiculous in parts. Don't even get me started on the "whitewashing". But still it's an interesting read.

[hoorayforicecream]

 

Addai67 wrote...

I just can't keep up with everything I'm supposed to be offended about.

If it's there, somebody hates it.

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

So... they're actually offended that mental illness is a) not presented as a positive thing- WTH? and you can't cure people?

I don't think anyone is asking that mental illness be shown as a good thing. I think the criticism is that mental illness is synonymous with psychopathic murder.

People who read as mentally ill:
1. Abduct and murder elven children because of demons they perceive.
2. Murders a series of women, including your mother, to make a patchwork, necromantic horror in the image of his dead wife.
3. Force feeds their guards lyrium, and then torture and murder their servants.
4. Are Meredith.

Jennifer suggested that Anders is meant to be read as mentally ill. The author of the article didn't see this, nor did I, but now that she's pointed it out, I can appreciate it.

As for curing, that's a bit more thorny. I don't think anyone is asking for a magical cure. I do think that the narrative suggests my four examples are all mad dogs who need to be put down.

And someone please explain what's supposed to be so egregious about this:

Something that occurred to me after this published. I was disappointed when I discovered that stripping my male Hawke of his armor merely placed him in pin-striped pants without a top. Doing the same with Lady Hawke put her in panties and a bra. While much guffawing was done over the awkwardness of the undergarments in Origins, this approach to it seemed a slap in the face.

They made the granny undies for the women more attractive but covered up the dudes.

I just can't keep up with everything I'm supposed to be offended about.

I'm sure you'll find something.

[Inzhuna]

I enjoyed that article. It's a bit sad how the author kind of got yelled at in the comments.

[Addai]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

 

Addai67 wrote...

I just can't keep up with everything I'm supposed to be offended about.

If it's there, somebody hates it.

Or if it's not there!

@Maria, thank you for your patient explanations.    So someone actually misses the deerskin thong.  Whoda thunk.  Or I take it what they wanted was a deerksin speedo.

[hoorayforicecream]

Would you consider Samson as mentally ill? He wasn't a psychopathic murderer, but he did have lyrium addiction issues.

[mesmerizedish]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Would you consider Samson as mentally ill? He wasn't a psychopathic murderer, but he did have lyrium addiction issues.

I'd consider him as mentally ill as I would any other addict. Which is to say, not very. Addiction is a disease, but "mental illness" carries more connotations that just "a disease in your brain."

[hoorayforicecream]

Does demon possession count as mental illness?

[silver-crescent]

But lyrium withdrawal does cause permanent mental issues like dementia etc.

[mesmerizedish]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Does demon possession count as mental illness?

No. At least, I don't consider it a mental illness, and neither does the Catholic Church. Nor the Circle of Magi. Kepler/Kelper/Kessel/Whatever was said to be mad, not possessed. There's clearly a distinction.

[David Gaider]

While I would agree in theory that mental illness should not be portrayed lightly, I personally don't think there's much traction to be had in deciding that everyone who acts in psychopathic faction is, in fact, mentally ill... particularly in a world full of demonic possession... and then claiming our portrayal is uneven. There's a leap of logic in there I'm not very comfortable with.

[hoorayforicecream]

David Gaider wrote...

While I would agree in theory that mental illness should not be portrayed lightly, I personally don't think there's much traction to be had in deciding that everyone who acts in psychopathic faction is, in fact, mentally ill... particularly in a world full of demonic possession... and then claiming our portrayal is uneven. There's a leap of logic in there I'm not very comfortable with.

Mr. Gaider, I must both commend you while sighing and shaking my head at the same time. The entire world setting seems to be built on the ability to answer practically any question with a shrug and an "iono". I can't decide if this is a great thing or an awful thing.

[Maria Caliban]

Inzhuna wrote...

I enjoyed that article. It's a bit sad how the author kind of got yelled at in the comments.

That bothered me as well, especially as the blogspace is intended to be inclusive and friendly. I do appreciate the editor stepping in and reminding the posters that the author is a guest.

Addai67 wrote...

@Maria, thank you for your patient explanations.    So someone actually misses the deerskin thong.  Whoda thunk.  Or I take it what they wanted was a deerksin speedo.

No problem. Reading over the article, I have to agree that it's difficult to follow. Getting rid of the irony quotes and parenthetical comments would make it clearer, but it seems this was originally taken from a personal blog anyway.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

I enjoyed that article. It's a bit sad how the author kind of got yelled at in the comments.

That bothered me as well, especially as the blogspace is intended to be inclusive and friendly. I do appreciate the editor stepping in and reminding the posters that the author is a guest.

Well, now I'm interested. I kind of get off on righteoud indignation, so I love it when not-altogether-wonderful people assault others for saying things like this. I mean, I don't really love it... it'd be great if it didn't happen. But I'm kind of addicted to the feeling I get when it does.

[berelinde]

It's the internet. People will tear each other apart with no reason whatsoever. Why should they show more restraint when others challenge the reality they choose to embrace?

Edit: Corrected screwed up syntax. Blame what you please.

Modifié par berelinde, 21 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[mesmerizedish]

berelinde wrote...

It's the internet. People will tear each other apart with no reason whatsoever. Why should they show more restraint when others challenge the reality they choose to embrace?

Edit: Corrected screwed up syntax. Blame what you please.

I'm of the mind that people should always show more restraint. That they don't isn't an excuse for continuing to not.

"It's the internet" isn't an excuse. "They're fictional characters" isn't an excuse. There's no substitute for civilized discussion.

A LESSON ANDERS MAY NOT HAVE LEARNED BECAUSE HE WAS CRAZY AND/OR POSSESSED?

Oh yeah. I just made that on-topic, b*tches.

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

While I would agree in theory that mental illness should not be portrayed lightly, I personally don't think there's much traction to be had in deciding that everyone who acts in psychopathic faction is, in fact, mentally ill... particularly in a world full of demonic possession... and then claiming our portrayal is uneven. There's a leap of logic in there I'm not very comfortable with.

I think that's fair.

I think most players would view the characters I spoke of as... bat**** insane. Whether that's due to the idol, demonic possession, or regular mental disability, I think that's how they'll be perceived.

The idea of the Inclusivity Review is to hold up a specific game to the light and look for flaws. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's written, but I believe it's good to reflect on these things.

I liked the quest with the magistrate's son and considered it well done specifically because my choices felt so limited. I really wanted to help the guy, as I didn't see him as evil, but there wasn't anything I could do. That was more honest to me than being able to smack around a demon and make him all better.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think that's fair.

I think most players would view the characters I spoke of as... bat**** insane. Whether that's due to the idol, demonic possession, or regular mental disability, I think that's how they'll be perceived.

The idea of the Inclusivity Review is to hold up a specific game to the light and look for flaws. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's written, but I believe it's good to reflect on these things.

I'll always look at how they appear and why they appear that way. I know I can't say that most players are just like me (heavens, would that be a circus!)... but I'll bet a lot of people see something craxy, and proceed to ask "Why?"

I don't think any of the "bat**** insane" characters were pathological before whatever catalyst got to them, be it spiritual possession, the idol, or what have you.

I think Loghain is a much better example of a truly pathologically insane character than any in DAII.

I liked the quest with the magistrate's son and considered it well done specifically because my choices felt so limited. I really wanted to help the guy, as I didn't see him as evil, but there wasn't anything I could do. That was more honest to me than being able to smack around a demon and make him all better.

Except, of course, for the magistrate's son.

I felt my choices were limited as well, but I didn't see that as a mark of how well-done it was. I thought its presentation was good, but it was lacking the one outcome that I desired. Take him back to Kirkwall and ensure that he's imprisoned. The magistrate says he sentenced him to life in prison (which was apparently a lie). But, I caught him in the act of kidnapping a girl, I have a confession from him, and he's clearly dangerous. The magistrate doesn't care, but I do. I can drag him back and have Aveline lock him up. Except that I can't.

I never wanted to kill him, because I have strong feelings on that sort of thing. My characters tend to be more flexible than I would be in real life, but neither of them that I've played so far really believed he deserved to die. Even if demons weren't actually controlling him, he still couldn't control himself. But my only choices were to kill him or to set him loose.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 21 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[DeathStride]

Disclaimer: I sincerely apologize for the staggering length of this post, I hope at least a few of you will find it worth your time to read it.

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Kirkwaller’s Guide to Social Justice

Let me see if I can address each of the points in the article in an organized manner...

(By "score" I mean I approve.)

1) Subverting the Worst Excuse
Women in positions of power and authority without any Thedasians blinking twice? Score. Also, I highly approve of the open gender roles in Thedas and the approach the writers took where they made it "an apolitical personal quirk," as Alis Dee puts it. It's not a virtue or a taboo, it just is.

That being said, I don't think the "Hawke is just that awesome" explanation comes anywhere close to cutting it for why every-single-companion you can hit on is is Hawkesexual. That's more a sign of BW taking the easy road, making all these individuals who are supposed to have unique personalities and backgrounds into 1-size-fits-all Hawkesexuals. I am quite disappointed by the bland and IMO lazy approach they took there.

2) How to Kill a Hypotenuse
Not much to say here; Aveline isn't just another "piece of @ss" even though her husband is killed off early game- Score.

3)The Thedas Guide to Passing
Feynriel issue: never had one.

As for mage Hawke being blatantly ignored? "Bribes" and "status" being used to explain the massive inconsistency/discconect by Dee is pure mind-canon on her part. The writers don't even try to provide us any evidence why things are as they are until you're quite deep into the plot at which point the whole "mage in a society that abhorrs and represses mages" is given only passing mention. This was a serious flaw in the game; if one tries hard enough, any flaw can be explained away using mind-canon, as we see here.

4) The Secret Life of Them
Companion actually having lives of their own: Score. Although overall, I did feel that the companion in this game had less depth to them overall, the spectrum of companion backstory and development ran from hilarious to heart-wrenching and further in Origins and I just didn't get that feeling in this game. The characters felt a bit "flat" to me in 2 in comparison. Maybe the writers thought the "decade-long journey" would provide enough filling-out to make up for it, who knows.

On a side note, I felt Dee was pushing the feminist angle a bit too hard with the almost malicious glee at the Anders/Fenris rivalry over Hawke's affections. I have no problem with that setup by the writers, but it's more than a bit hypocritical to complain about  that issue with female companions and turn around and call it "delicious" when seen with male companions.


5) You keep using that word...
As others have mentioned before this, I don't know if I'd agree that DA2 really qualifies as Low Fantasy, but I see what Dee's trying to say. I even admit that I was one of those disappointed when I came in expecting a sequel to Origins and found something akin to another series, genre-wise.

6) Strength As Weakness
While I agree with a lot of the plus points mentioned in the review, I absolutely do not agree that they somehow "make up" for the many flaws in the game. What it comes down to is the PoV of the player. People like Dee and other Border House writers and readers are specifically looking for things like gender equality and open gender roles etc and few games cater to that audience in a complex and meaningful way these days(from my experience).

So for them, when a game does so, and does it quite well, those strengths in a sense "eclipse" serious flaws in the gameplay like incredibly over used maps, "streamlining" of RPG elements like removal of companion armor customization, total disconnects of story/breaks of game immersion when someone like Orsino attempts to murder all his own protectors(Hawke and co.) when there are Templars 20 feet down the hall, and so on.

A perfect example of this is the Templar-goggles that everybody, especially Templars seem to be wearing, that block out glowing magical staves, loud incantations, and graphic spells. Dee explains away this problem using mind-canon while most others(as far as I've seen) find that to be a glaring inconsistency in the plot.

Modifié par DeathStride, 21 avril 2011 - 09:12 .