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[YourFunnyUncle]

I must confess that I'm not well versed in these arguments, but isn't Sandal an example of a "mentally ill" person who is portrayed in a very positive light? In addition to his obvious skills, when you go off to find him in the deep roads it's not to rescue him from the darkspawn, as it's quite clear he can handle himself very well, but simply to guide him back to the group.

[DA_GamerGal]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

I must confess that I'm not well versed in these arguments, but isn't Sandal an example of a "mentally ill" person who is portrayed in a very positive light? In addition to his obvious skills, when you go off to find him in the deep roads it's not to rescue him from the darkspawn, as it's quite clear he can handle himself very well, but simply to guide him back to the group.

I don't think Sandal was meant to be portrayed as a "mentally ill' person (but I could be wrong.. Mr. Gaider...?) but rather someone that is mentally challanged, to some degree. He seemed more like someone that may have some level of Autism.... or Aspergers...

[YourFunnyUncle]

krissyjf wrote...

I don't think Sandal was meant to be portrayed as a "mentally ill' person (but I could be wrong.. Mr. Gaider...?) but rather someone that is mentally challanged, to some degree. He seemed more like someone that may have some level of Autism.... or Aspergers...

Yeah I was thinking that, but then I thought: "How do you define where mentally challenged ends and mentally ill begins?" I think the problem with understanding mental illness in general is that we still don't really understand the mind, and the diagnoses and terminology always seem very ill-defined and up for debate.

[TobiTobsen]

That was an interesting article. Thanks for posting it Maria.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Sandal isn't mentally ill, but he appears to be intellectually disabled. Not faulting anyone for finding the terminology confusing - here are the Wikipedia articles on intellectual disability and mental disorders. There are sound medical reasons to seperate these conditions - and neurological diseases that impair brain function, such as Huntington's disease, belong in another separate category. Which is not to say that perceptions and classifcations don't change over time. It's not that long since homosexuality was removed from the DSM.

Anyway, back on topic. As a person with a mental illness, Anders' emotional state seemed familiar to me, often painfully so. I'm not surprised that Jennifer Hepler was thinking explicitly along those lines. I'd always like to see more fictional mentally ill people who are not psychotic murderers. Only a small percentage of the mentally ill are ever a danger to anyone other than themselves, but you might not realise that if all you see are the stereotypes present in the media. However, I do understand that there are difficulties tackling these issues in a fantasy RPG.

Firstly, you can't tell that someone is mentally ill just by looking at them, and it's not something that's going to come up in conversation with your average quest giver. How would the player even find out if Elthina suffers from obsessive-compulsive disorder or that merchant trying to sell you armor is bipolar? It's only going to be revealled if it's presents a problem for the player, like Ogrhen's drinking or Anders' mood swings.

Secondly, an enormously inflated percentage of the people you meet in fantasy RPGs are violent murderers, regardless of the state of their brains. An awful lot of people get stabbed and set on fire in Dragon Age and most of the time mental illness has nothing to do with it.

Thirdly, Thedas is a Medieval setting. While the perception of mental distress is obviously very different to the way it was in our Middle Ages - they can actually tell if someone is posessed by a demon - it's not like they have SSRIs and lithium. I was actually intrigued when Bartrand gets taken to some kind of asylum if you have Anders heal him and spare his life. Those weren't very widespread here on Earth until the 18th century, so maybe Thedas is ahead of the curve there.

I think BioWare does better at social justice issues than any other game developer I'm familiar with. There's always room for improvement, but in a world that contains Duke Nukem Forever I find it immensly heartening that there are developers that even NOTICE these issues.

Modifié par Andrastee, 21 avril 2011 - 02:07 .

[Adara]

Thanks Maria for posting this. It was an awesome and enlightening article. She hit on a lot of points that I was thinking. While it's true that DA 2  has its flaws; I think you guys at Bioware did a commendable job with what little time you had. I love games, and this is the first one that truly touched me emotionally. I experienced everything from sadness to elation to anger. Some of the characters even inspired me to write poems or fanfic about them, and its not easy to inspire me. So hats off to you Bioware, I look forward to any future Dragon Age stories.

[Inzhuna]

Actually, the disabled community have found the portrayal of Sandal incredibly ableist and offensive. I only seen this as a mention, and I would like to read a full article on it.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Inzhuna wrote...

Actually, the disabled community have found the portrayal of Sandal incredibly ableist and offensive. I only seen this as a mention, and I would like to read a full article on it.

Really? He was found by Bodahn which implies that he was surviving on his own, and has the amazing ability to turn up in the middle of a battle zone and wander the deep roads unscathed. In addition he performs a vital service that usually takes years to train for. I'm truly interested to see what can be construed as offensive about that.

[TheAwesomologist]

Interesting read, even if the author lost me a little. Took me a while to understand what she meant by "passing".

#1. Subverting the worst excuse - Women in power and sexuality in Thedas didn't bother me or whatever. It was already established in DA:O. I guess it is praise worthy, but for me it wasn't anything "special" one way or the other.

#2. How to kill a hypotenuse - I really liked Aveline's story and her character. I'm actually bummed because she isn't Hawkesexual but totally appreciate her love story with Donnic. I had no idea this "kill a hypotenuse" thing applied to Anders though since I've never romanced him. In fact I always end up with some initial rivalry because I don't swing that way. That kind of bummed me out. Then I remembered how annoying he is and it didn't bother me anymore.

#3. The Thedas guide to passing - I never got the point the writer was trying to make with Fenryiel but really that quest for me was less about his race and more about magic. But as to the second point I never really got a sense that MageHawke was privileged or bribing anyone until Act 3 where MageHawke is protected since he's campion. From the beginning of the game where you have that first fight in the Gallows with some upset refugees my suspension of disbelief was shattered. It didn't matter that I was calling down bolts of lighting in the middle of a mage prison in front of guards. I chalked it up to the writers/designers not caring for that aspect of the story. Then I spent the next two acts trying to find the fanciest dress I could wear and which "I'm an apostate" sign I can have strapped to my back. In Act 1 MageHawke saves Cullen from a templar abomination and the Knight Captain could care less that I'm a mage. I got no sense of privilege because of social/financial standing, I just took it as the writers not making two different stories for different types of classes.
The characters that do get a pass are Merrill and Anders. We know that Varric is protecting both of them via bribery, and that at least Merrill is doing the best she can to lay low.

#4. The secret life of them - I liked that the characters had their own lives. I learned waaaaay too much about Isabella this way. That said, there could have been more companion dialog instead of quest dialog. The only miss here was Fenris who lives in a house with rotting corpses for 6 years. Sure you get some dialog that he hangs out with Donnic and helps Aveline from time to time. Otherwise all he does is brood at home. Everyone else seemed to lead their own lives though. I don't play out the gay romances so I've never had trouble with Anders or Fenris b*tching to each other any more than they normally do. In fact it's their b*tching in general that leads me to not use them as much as possible.

#5 - I still think the the game is a "Confined High Fantasy" game. For me low fantasy is a world where magic and magic like effects are rare and subtle. Arthur and Merlin are Low Fantasy. As soon as you have Dark Spawn, Elves, Dwarves, Golems, Ninjas, Pirate-Ninjas, Templar-Ninjas, Dragons in various sizes, and horned Qunari the whole "low fantasy" thing flies right out the window. The writers just made a point to confine the story to one spot so the game just feels smaller and less epic.

Modifié par TheAwesomologist, 21 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[Inzhuna]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

Actually, the disabled community have found the portrayal of Sandal incredibly ableist and offensive. I only seen this as a mention, and I would like to read a full article on it.

Really? He was found by Bodahn which implies that he was surviving on his own, and has the amazing ability to turn up in the middle of a battle zone and wander the deep roads unscathed. In addition he performs a vital service that usually takes years to train for. I'm truly interested to see what can be construed as offensive about that.

I can think of a few things, but I'm not confident enough to talk about them, since I'm not disabled. I might ask on the borderhouse blog in the comments and see if anyone responds, since I would like to know. Just food for thought: portraying a minority as possessing awesome magical abilities does not necessarily mean it's a positive portrayal. Think of the common Magical ****** steryotype, for example, or Magical Queer.

[ImoenBaby]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What about the Count's boy in 'On the Loose?' His family were wealthy, Orelesian nobility. Hawke interacts with a number of socially privileged people in the game and no where is it suggested that you can remain an apostate by greasing the right palms.

True.

I first read privilege as a possible explanation for the occasional apostate, as a reflection of some sort of social advantage. I don't remember seeing anything in the game supporting this either, and it's difficult imagining Meredith permitting "privilege" in Kirkwall.

The only privilege I do see mage Hawke enjoy is being a player character in a game that ignores her public magic. Still, I rather like the privilege interpretation. Interesting story opportunities.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Inzhuna wrote...

I can think of a few things, but I'm not confident enough to talk about them, since I'm not disabled. I might askon the borderhouse blog in the comments and see if anyone responds, since I would like to know. Just food for thought: portraying a minority as possessing awesome magical abilities does not necessarily mean it's a positive portrayal. Think of the common Magical ****** steryotype, for example, or Magical Queer.

Sandal isn't some kind of wise guru with all the answers to Hawke's problems, so I'm not quite sure how that archetype applies, but I suppose I can see where you're coming from...

Modifié par YourFunnyUncle, 21 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[Inzhuna]

I only meant to suggest it *might* be wrong for the same reasons as those stereotypes (and other similar ones) are wrong, I didn't mean to draw an exact parallel.

[Ryzaki]

Really mage Hawke (or Bethany) going to Kirkwall was a dumb idea from the start.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Inzhuna wrote...

I only meant to suggest it *might* be wrong for the same reasons as those stereotypes (and other similar ones) are wrong, I didn't mean to draw an exact parallel.

Yeah that's why I said that i think I see where you're coming from. Didn't mean to sound dismissive.

[nightscrawl]

The “privilege” of the Ferelden mages isn’t really their own; it comes purely from the fact that they have the sympathies of a powerful non-mage… and one who, while popular, won’t be in power for very much longer.

FOOTNOTE: Ferelden political system aside, remember being a Grey Warden is a death sentence; Alistair has maybe another fifteen years before he books his One Way Ticket To The Deep Roads.

I found this to be an interesting statement. I've wondered myself how Alistair was going to work out getting an heir. Heh... maybe things will really change and Connor will be the next king . Now that would be a shocker. I guess he'd have to overthrow the chantry for that though.

Finally, and most interestingly, the need to “pass” as mage!Hawke can bleed over onto the player; I can’t be the only person who deliberately ended up wearing the least “magey” looking armour I could find...

I only partly agree with this. While I did think the idea of wearing robes when you are trying to avoid the templars was a bit silly, I also find Dragon Age (all versions) robe designs to be hideous.

... this is what I mean about the game being Low Fantasy. In Low Fantasy, **** happens. In Low Fantasy, the cavalry aren’t going to arrive on shining gryphons. In Low Fantasy, the bad guys might be both everyone, no-one and you, all at once. And, most importantly, in Low Fantasy you can’t save the world; if you work really hard, however, you just might be able to save yourself.

I gotta say, if Low Fantasy is the gritty, dark, morally ambiguous kind, I don't want to bother with the High Fantasy. It's lame by comparison (but can be refreshing sometimes.)

Everyone who likes videogames and has even a passing interest in feminism/social justice (or vice versa) needs to play this game; I can’t even stress that enough.

I really dislike it when people try to find meanings in things, or project their own agenda onto forms of entertainment they had no involvement in creating. I disliked it in English Lit class when we had to find all sorts of symbols and crap. I passed that class, you know why? Not because I found real meaning, but because I said what the teacher wanted to hear. It's perfectly legitimate to say that writers use symbols to evoke emotion in the audience, but the ultimate goal of evoking that emotion is for the entertainment value. If the writer fails to elicit an emotional response, they have failed.

Novels, tv, movies, games and all forms of storytelling have a job, and that job is to entertain you. If they make a social point while doing it, well that's fine too, but it should not be assumed that the point was intentional just because you would like it to be. It also should not be assumed that writers never use their media to make social points, because they do that too. Gene Roddenbery made several deliberate social comments in Star Trek. But again, his goal was to make an entertaining tv show, even if he could make great episodes like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield that are entertaining and make a social point at the same time.

Leading into the last section is a screenshot of the writers from the credits and the comment, "I'm just... going to put this screenshot here and let you make up your own mind about what I think it means." I'm going to assume here that the emphasis is that at least half (sorry I don't know what gender Ferret is >.>) of the writers are women. As a woman myself, I'm not sure if I'm irritated by the statement or not. It's almost implied that she thinks female writers have to write these issues into their works, or they're not being true to themselves as oppressed women in a male dominated industry. Part of the problem women have is thinking like that, even from other women it seems. Perhaps they did. We can't be, and she can't be sure unless she sat in on dev meetings. The insistence that it must be the case, because they are women is the annoying part.

Of course, this also does a grave disservice to the male writers on the team. From reading The Stolen Throne, I can say that David Gaider in particular can write strong women well.


I can't believe I wrote an entire forum rant about a stupid blog critique.

[hoorayforicecream]

I always thought "low fantasy" just meant that the fantastic elements were fewer and farther between. Conan's a decent example of that, most of the time it's a bunch of armies and people fighting each other; witchcraft and magic is mostly fakery and tricks, and there aren't that many fantastic beasts.

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's an interesting suggestion, but I am not sure the text supports it.

What about the Count's boy in 'On the Loose?' His family were wealthy, Orelesian nobility. Hawke interacts with a number of socially privileged people in the game and no where is it suggested that you can remain an apostate by greasing the right palms.

It also doesn't really fly when Hawke is granted this supposed priviledge from the very start, despite he/she breaks out magic fireballs literally five minutes after arriving, in the gallows and under noses of multiple templars, no less. It'd be hard to argue Meredith immediately decides to let this particular apostate run freely around with no real basis for it, yet other mages are never given such chance and are kept under extremely tight supervision.

It'd be especially hard to explain why this treatment isn't applied to Hawke's sibling in the situation where she happens to be a mage, rather than Hawke himself/herself. After all, pretty much any argument one could make for Hawke applies to her, too.

[Maria Caliban]

nightscrawl wrote...

I can't believe I wrote an entire forum rant about a stupid blog critique.

Actually, you wrote a rant about a blog praising the game. And much of what they praise are not abstract symbols but things the developers have talked about.

Thedas was designed to be a land where gender and sexual orientation doesn't matter as much compared to historical medieval Europe and, in some ways, the modern world.

That Hawke can flirt extensively with Aveline but she'll still pursue Guardsman Donnic isn't something that happened by accident. I find it hard to believe that Luke came up with this scenario but didn't realize it runs contrary to the expectations of many BioWare players, as well as general RPG players.

There's her explanation of MageHawke passing in Kirkwall. Most people disagree with her on that, but it's one part of a much larger article.

[Addai]

nightscrawl wrote...
I really dislike it when people try to find meanings in things, or project their own agenda onto forms of entertainment they had no involvement in creating. I disliked it in English Lit class when we had to find all sorts of symbols and crap. I passed that class, you know why? Not because I found real meaning, but because I said what the teacher wanted to hear. It's perfectly legitimate to say that writers use symbols to evoke emotion in the audience, but the ultimate goal of evoking that emotion is for the entertainment value. If the writer fails to elicit an emotional response, they have failed.

Novels, tv, movies, games and all forms of storytelling have a job, and that job is to entertain you. If they make a social point while doing it, well that's fine too, but it should not be assumed that the point was intentional just because you would like it to be. It also should not be assumed that writers never use their media to make social points, because they do that too. Gene Roddenbery made several deliberate social comments in Star Trek. But again, his goal was to make an entertaining tv show, even if he could make great episodes like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield that are entertaining and make a social point at the same time.

Do you think that the game writers intended a social justice (i.e. politically "progressive") POV?

The insistence that it must be the case, because they are women is the annoying part.

Agreed.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 avril 2011 - 06:03 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Addai67 wrote...

Do you think that the game writers intended a social justice (i.e. politically "progressive") POV?

Not sure if you were only hoping to hear from the poster you quoted, but I'd like to think that you can aim for multiple targets with a story. Ultimately, the main goal is to be entertaining and memorable. It's pretty clear that the attitudes in game about sexuality and gender are intentional; they bring it to light through a variety of examples (the story of Ser Aveline, Andraste, even the couple of blacksmiths in Denerim whose names I forget). It isn't unfeasible that they would bring something similar to other social issues.

[UltiPup]

Inzhuna wrote...

Actually, the disabled community have found the portrayal of Sandal incredibly ableist and offensive. I only seen this as a mention, and I would like to read a full article on it.

Sandal can make the best runes in the game, is able to use magic while his race isn't supposed to, and has been able to vanquish entire LEGIONS of darkspawn AND demons. He even froze an Ogre solid. He, basically, is the strongest dwarf ever. How is that insulting?

[nightscrawl]

There really needs to be a multi-quote button on these forums. Can I ask for that somewhere?

Maria Caliban wrote...

Thedas was designed to be a land where gender and sexual orientation doesn't matter as much compared to historical medieval Europe and, in some ways, the modern world.

This is true. However, it is true of many RPGs, and part of the reason for that is to appeal to the widest audience possible. Not only does this bring in more money, but story wise it's much better to have a world where many more things have the possibility of happening and seeing both genders walking around, than a game that is more true to the medieval aspect where you would have mainly men. How boring is that? The game industry has come a long way in the last few years.

Someone mentioned Duke Nukem a ways back. You can also throw in the Grand Theft Auto games as reference for male chauvinist game design. Those types do not dominate however.

I love DA2. I find it highly entertaining, and it has tremendous replay value for me. But it is not unique in this aspect, nor is it unique for Bioware to head down this path: Aribeth was a wonderful female character in Neverwinter Nights.

Also, you mention that these are some concepts that the game devs talked about. Well, I wouldn't have known that from her blog. There are no reference links (other than to tvtropes,) nor were there any developer quotes. You will find more links to dev comments in some detailed posts on these forums. That led me to believe that most, if not all of it was her own opinion and assumptions. I didn't expect it though, since it's a "blog" and not an "article."

You're right, she did overall praise the game. I praise the game too. That doesn't mean my praise echoes her praise.

Inzhuna wrote...

Actually, the disabled community have found the portrayal of Sandal incredibly ableist and offensive. I only seen this as a mention, and I would like to read a full article on it.

New word for me! o_o I don't know though... until more information is learned about Sandal, I think real world comparisons are unfair. And unless sources can be sited, we also can't know whether these are by people who have actually played either DA game. It reminds me of PETA being all crazed because there were seals in World of Warcraft, and acting like people go clubbing them all day long when there isn't even a quest regarding this.

If legitimate people have legitimate concerns over Sandal, I'm more than willing to listen and consider. But too often these complaints come from people who are ignorant and uninformed because they haven't played for themselves.

Addai67 wrote...

Do you think that the game writers intended a social justice (i.e. politically "progressive") POV?

Yes... however I realize that this seems the opposite of my original statement. But I rebel at the notion that the social issue is the sole reason for including something, ignoring it's entertainment/story value.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's pretty clear that the attitudes in game about sexuality and gender are intentional; they bring it to light through a variety of examples (the story of Ser Aveline, Andraste, even the couple of blacksmiths in Denerim whose names I forget). It isn't unfeasible that they would bring something similar to other social issues.

Exactly so. Wade and Herren!

Modifié par nightscrawl, 21 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[hoorayforicecream]

nightscrawl wrote...

Someone mentioned Duke Nukem a ways back. You can also throw in the Grand Theft Auto games as reference for male chauvinist game design. Those types do not dominate however.

I dunno, there certainly seems to be a large market for it. The sellingest game ever is Call of Duty: Black Ops, and it's pretty much a huge sausagefest. I haven't played it myself, but from previous experience with the franchise, the only time I ever remember seeing a woman is in that controversial "No Russian" level from Modern Warfare 2, and they were civilians running in fear from the terrorists toting automatic weapons. CoD isn't necessarily heavy-handed in its chauvanism, but then again it wouldn't lose anything if it was somehow transplanted onto the planet of Testostero, inhabited by the single-sex species of Dudus Shooticus.

[nightscrawl]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I dunno, there certainly seems to be a large market for it. The sellingest game ever is Call of Duty: Black Ops, and it's pretty much a huge sausagefest. I haven't played it myself, but from previous experience with the franchise, the only time I ever remember seeing a woman is in that controversial "No Russian" level from Modern Warfare 2, and they were civilians running in fear from the terrorists toting automatic weapons. CoD isn't necessarily heavy-handed in its chauvanism, but then again it wouldn't lose anything if it was somehow transplanted onto the planet of Testostero, inhabited by the single-sex species of Dudus Shooticus.

Lol.

The only shooters I've played were Perfect Dark (female char) and Bioshock (male char,) so I can't really comment on those. However, it's my understanding that the main difference is the online competitive aspect via XBOX Live and such, which is also male dominated. Those are also military-style games though, right? It's not exactly like the normal world anyway (and I don't mean fantasy vs reality here, I mean military vs civilian.)