813 réponses à ce sujet

[Thorne_underfoot]

Devn LeComte wrote...
I loved origins, just not as much as DA2, and I should have expected this to happen. No one can EVER completely just shut up and play a game. Its always, blahblah, they when wrong here, and blahblah, they did this. They worked hard on it not for you to bash it, but to enjoy it. So try to sit down and enjoy the game that you are a fan of. The could have never made a sequel at all. And also, you can't change the fact that Origins was unresponsive and clunky. DA2 is not a complete improvement, but not a failure either, and some fail to see that.

It's great that you loved DA2.  Personally, it wasn't a Bad game (to me), but it wasn't as good a game as it could/should have been. 

And altough i am not a huge fan of all of the "touting it as the greatest thing since sliced bread and universally condemning it as the end of civilization and RPGs in general as we know them" that has been going on here for the last several months, there is notthing wrong with the consumers telling the developers what worked and what didn't.  In fact, if we don't they will have nothing to go on when they work on future projects. 

And just to correct your miss-perception, they don't make games to make the game "to enjoy it".  they made it to make money.  And that means that they wanted to make something that consumers enjoyed.  Sure, they may enjoy their jobs.  And they may want to make a game that is to their liking as well.  But the bottom line is, it was made with the intent to sell to consumers.  And if the consumers don't like it, they won't buy it. 

For me, I played DA:O and enjoyed it.  There are things about DA2 that i liked and there are directions that the development team went that I did not like.  if i am going to buy DA3, I will have certain expectations.  And since I am consumer and part of the sales demographic, my feedback (amongst all of the others who likewise plan on consuming) is valuable.

Personally, I felt that the graphics were an improvement, but not necessarily a "next gen" improvement.  And the fact that they re-used the same textures and even the same maps over and over and OVER again, detracted from the improvement value. 

I thought the combat flowed better (quicker, more exciting) in DA2, but I also thought that it was significantly less tactical.  Almost every battle came down to spamming AoE attacks and none of the combats hinged on tactical use of skills/powers/characters or resources.  And the "Wave theory" of combat was not my idea of a solution that worked.

and I liked DA:O choices that were taken away from the player in DA2.  I liked the back stories of the different races.  I liked being able to create my own hero rather than playing someone else's hero.  And, although the voice acting was well done, it was (IMHO) unnecessary. 

So I am not saying "Go back" to anything.  I am saying, take what worked from DA2, add back in those elements from DA:O that people thought shouldn't have changed from DA:O and add on to both.  But definitely take feedback from the consumers.

[Killjoy Cutter]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

Quite the opposite, really.
I found the combat in DA2 to be INFINITELY more unrealistic than Origins... which, btw, is actually pretty realistic if you have ever seen people actually fight medieval style. And I mean for real fight, not the staged stuff you'll find at renfairs and other places. Sure the shuffling around was lame, but everything else was extremely realistic.
As to the voiced protagonist. To simply state what has been said 100000000000000000x and no matter how often it is stated it will never be accepted because people are human: The Warden was the player. Hawke is not.
What that means is that the voiced protagonist is not you RPing but you watching a story play out. If you wanna watch a story play out, play FF or watch a movie. If you want to RP play DnD, SMT, or Origins. That was the appeal of Origins. That it allowed players to actually RP in our modern times where that is mostly lost in video games.
Everyone can agree that the combat in Origins was slow, if realistic, but we must also admit that combat is WAY too over the top in DA2! DA3 should have a happy median.
And the poor use of waves of enemies in DA2 made any sort of attempt at being strategic gone after the second wave had shown up.

The combat in DA2 could have been more fluid and featured a broader range of animations, while still retaining a down-to-earth quality in the way that DA:O did.  It could have added more dodge, parry, and evasion animations, more feight and attack animations, etc.  It did not need to, and should not, appear to be ripped from an episode of Naruto.    It did not need ninja leaps and teleporting. 

[mordarwarlock]

it seems the OP haven't played much RPG's, it seems the OP doesn't have any idea of what an RPG should have (great storyline above everything, which DA 2 utterly failed at)

it seems DA 2 was made for the likes of him, Action fans, and it seems the OP should play action Games if that's the case, not RPG's

Unique and expansive. That reminds me of Kirkwall. And no area in Origins was unique and expensive, at least not in the mind blowing way Kirkwall was.

and yeah, the OP lost all credibility with this, not sure if trolling

but not to worry OP as long as laidlaw and gaider are on-board with everything DA related you will have your action dumbed down games with awesome buttons 

Modifié par mordarwarlock, 21 avril 2011 - 04:09 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

mordarwarlock wrote...

it seems the OP haven't played much RPG's, it seems the OP doesn't have any idea of what an RPG should have (great storyline above everything, which DA 2 utterly failed at)

it seems DA 2 was made for the likes of him, Action fans, and it seems the OP should play action Games if that's the case, not RPG's

Unique and expansive. That reminds me of Kirkwall. And no area in Origins was unique and expensive, at least not in the mind blowing way Kirkwall was.

and yeah, the OP lost all credibility with this, not sure if trolling

but not to worry OP as long as laidlaw and gaider are on-board with everything DA related you will have your action dumbed down games with awesome buttons 

I don't think being insulting helps you make your point.

[Night Prowler76]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

mordarwarlock wrote...

it seems the OP haven't played much RPG's, it seems the OP doesn't have any idea of what an RPG should have (great storyline above everything, which DA 2 utterly failed at)

it seems DA 2 was made for the likes of him, Action fans, and it seems the OP should play action Games if that's the case, not RPG's

Unique and expansive. That reminds me of Kirkwall. And no area in Origins was unique and expensive, at least not in the mind blowing way Kirkwall was.

and yeah, the OP lost all credibility with this, not sure if trolling

but not to worry OP as long as laidlaw and gaider are on-board with everything DA related you will have your action dumbed down games with awesome buttons 

I don't think being insulting helps you make your point.

Doesnt seem insulting, thats how DA2 was, and its probably how DA3 will be unfortunately.

[clipped_wolf]

I sometimes wonder if DA2's development was an experiment: what can be done in 18 months and how much profit can be made from the product? If so, the experiment was at the expense of the old rpg fans. Even the 'ILoveDA2! DAOsux!' fans could have had a more polished product [edit] had the game been given the proper time to be realized.

Modifié par clipped_wolf, 21 avril 2011 - 04:29 .

[erynnar]

Aaleel wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

DA2 needed the companion dialogue more than Origins. If it was supposed to be a personal story over a decade, you should have built up relationships with your party on a personal level. But the characters in DA2 just seemed hollow.

Then your family, they gave you a family and assumed you would care about them because they called them your family. They never developed the family component so you never really felt like you were doing things for them, trying to get them out of poverty.

The game really should have started in Lothering before the darkspawn struck. Maybe have a scene where Templars come and you have to hide Bethany from them, show how much she's afraid to go to the circle. Make it personal, make you want to protect you family.

It's like they dropped all of the companion/family interaction just to add in more combat to appeal to COD crowd they were going after.

This^.  I just did the playthrough of the run from Lothering, and I feel no connection to Bethany, or Carver (the git, whose rivalry I would get more out of if we had more time before running). Your ideas would have helped immersion greatly! I might have cared when the ogre trounced Bethany (and Carver previously).

It does seem that way. 

The start of the game is increadibly rushed, and I think it would have been far better had it started out in Lothering, before anyone there even knew that the Darkspawn were amassing in the south.

They also could have had your mage Hawke start out in the Circle and maybe see some mistreatment of mages first hand.  You could have talked to Erving, and maybe even Ulread to get the opposition side.  Maybe even seen the first parts of the Tower being taken over and escaped during the commotion. 

You know about Darkspawn because Duncan had been there so you go to your family in Lothering.  Carver comes back from Ostagar and confronts you about putting your whole family in danger and it sets up your whole rivalry relationship with Carver. 

Plus both starts I mentioned set up the templar/Mage storyline right from the start of the game.

They could have had different Origins in this game even without giving different races, they were just lazy.  They could have really made it a good personal story.

[erynnar]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

plokoon9619 wrote...

Dragon Age 3 won't happen now because of the failure of DA2,

Based on what evidence?

Far as I know, they are already working on it and the franchise is FAR from abandoned. And I'm glad of it.

This^! And me too Perse! 

And I was grumpy last night glad everyone ignored me (ugh sleeping issues). I finally loaded up a mage (same face as my rogue--I just hear that voice coming out of a different mouth) and despite the plot holes being even larger for the mage play, I like it much better than my rogue. Of course I haven't had the ninja waves in Kirkwall yet, but so far... 

Still, I want them to go back to Origins take all that worked with it, and all that worked in DA2 ( already posted likes and tweaks to DA2 combat I would love for them to keep) and put them together. Franken DA!!!  And we won't have to have pitchforks and torches we will be a happy mob instead, I think..

The mage is the only class I ever play in DA. But in DA2, wait until you see just how irrelevant and sometimes virtually invisible you become. Watch specifically your odd but brief interatction with Wesley at the beginning and your unbelievable dealings with Cullen and you'll see what I mean. Still, aside from all of the issues I have/had with this game, the mage made things slightly more tolerable for me. Have fun.....USE MODS...they help! ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Yeah, that scene with Wesley made me cringe with it's awkwardness...two mages and a templar. And Yeah  the plot holes getting bigger due to my mage status will be more immersion breaking than for my rogue. But the mage is more fun to play. Please pm me any mods you think I should use? I am up for mods!

[88mphSlayer]

as good as Origins was i don't want another Origins, same reason as much as i enjoyed ME2 i hope ME3 feels and plays differently and why i hope Skyrim is different from Oblivion just enough to feel fresh

when you play rpg's for 80-100 hours they get... old, no matter how good they are they've lost something along the way

knowing Bioware they tend to throw everything out everytime people dislike anything rather than using a scalpal to repair only the essential stuff, there ended up being more things i liked in DA2 than disliked and i was happy to see Bioware return to some stuff they had abandoned over the years

so sure, i'd like a merger of ideas but that's never going to happen

so all in all i'd rather Bioware - barring all else - just made DA3 feel different from both DAO and DA2, they should use Demon's Souls as some inspiration for art style/atmosphere + having physics in an rpg, maybe visit the Tevinter Imperium and do something different... not origins all over again

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 21 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[ankuu]

Afraid?! No! I sure do hope for them to return to Origins style...at least in some areas.

[cljqnsnyc]

erynnar wrote...

cljqnsnyc wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

plokoon9619 wrote...

Dragon Age 3 won't happen now because of the failure of DA2,

Based on what evidence?

Far as I know, they are already working on it and the franchise is FAR from abandoned. And I'm glad of it.

This^! And me too Perse! 

And I was grumpy last night glad everyone ignored me (ugh sleeping issues). I finally loaded up a mage (same face as my rogue--I just hear that voice coming out of a different mouth) and despite the plot holes being even larger for the mage play, I like it much better than my rogue. Of course I haven't had the ninja waves in Kirkwall yet, but so far... 

Still, I want them to go back to Origins take all that worked with it, and all that worked in DA2 ( already posted likes and tweaks to DA2 combat I would love for them to keep) and put them together. Franken DA!!!  And we won't have to have pitchforks and torches we will be a happy mob instead, I think..

The mage is the only class I ever play in DA. But in DA2, wait until you see just how irrelevant and sometimes virtually invisible you become. Watch specifically your odd but brief interatction with Wesley at the beginning and your unbelievable dealings with Cullen and you'll see what I mean. Still, aside from all of the issues I have/had with this game, the mage made things slightly more tolerable for me. Have fun.....USE MODS...they help! ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Yeah, that scene with Wesley made me cringe with it's awkwardness...two mages and a templar. And Yeah  the plot holes getting bigger due to my mage status will be more immersion breaking than for my rogue. But the mage is more fun to play. Please pm me any mods you think I should use? I am up for mods!

Mainly I modded the character appearances and stats.

I didn't like the original look of any of my companions save for a few so I changed them.  I think my Hawke is very attractive so I wanted Carver and Gamlen to resemble Hawke as relatives should. I hated what the game choose for them.  I used a few Kirkwall mods to give the city as much depth as possible without a toolset. Fenris is no longer suffering from malnutrition so he has become a human/elf hybrid.  For those intolerable mobs, I transformed my Hawke into a super-powered master of magic so I can dispatch them as quickly as possible. I found them most annoying! They never explain why they all seem to hate Hawke soooooooooooo much! Some of them attack on site for their own personal reasons...which are still a complete mystery to me.

Check out the mods forum here and Nexus. The save game editor is what you'll mainly use to tweak stats. There are other mods that allow complete customization of all companions.  The editor is what I used to make Fenris human....along with a custom morph I did combining his original face with a human face. All of this made DA2 more tolerable for me and at least helped buffer some of the pain this game caused. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png 

What would REALLY be nice are complete overhaul mods like what we have with Oblivion. Some of those mods completely alter the mechanics, landscape, cities, characters, everything! That game with mods is a MASTERPIECE! The version I play on pc dwarfs in every possible way the old copy I used to play on my 360...that has been collecting dust ever since I learned how to build a proper computer.  DA with mods like those would be mind-blowing!

Anyway, that's all off topic stuff. Enjoy DA2 with mods...as much as you can. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 21 avril 2011 - 05:55 .

[SilentK]

Aaleel wrote...

DA2 needed the companion dialogue more than Origins. If it was supposed to be a personal story over a decade, you should have built up relationships with your party on a personal level. But the characters in DA2 just seemed hollow.

Then your family, they gave you a family and assumed you would care about them because they called them your family. They never developed the family component so you never really felt like you were doing things for them, trying to get them out of poverty.

The game really should have started in Lothering before the darkspawn struck. Maybe have a scene where Templars come and you have to hide Bethany from them, show how much she's afraid to go to the circle. Make it personal, make you want to protect you family.

It's like they dropped all of the companion/family interaction just to add in more combat to appeal to COD crowd they were going after.

Hmm.... I really wanted to take care of Bethany in the beginning of the game. Especially after a certain q in a cellar. I thought that she was so sweet and sad in the conversations after that. Can't see how you don't feel for her but that's just me. She talks about her fears, and how different life could have been, your grandparents. Well, this is no-spoiler so I won't write what she said but she did talk about it and I responded very much to it.

[jylilaht]

I just finished DA2 campaign. I wanted to play it throught before going bashing but here it goes:

Bad things in DA2:

- Totally overused recycling of areas
- Totally overused recycling of monsters, which, some of them at least, were pretty hastily designed, lacking real purpose. DA:O was also suffering from this, but really these games need more diversity for monsters.
- Combat was totally hack and slash. Lacking any real tactics I like in RPGs.
- General idea of combat was like have 100 PRIESTS to keep your party alive while they smashkill monsters.
- In DA:O skill combinations were clear and cool. Instead of making that feature better they made is a big mess of unclear combinations which are difficult to use in combat since there is very little feedback about conditions enemies have. I really only recognize stun effect, tbh.
- Skill tree in general, was much worse than in DA:O. I liked somewhat clear options you got in DA:O, even though it was lacking a lot of choices.
- NO SUMMONING SKELETONS. WTF. But you can summon a mabari for free. I hate dogs.
- It was even more difficult for me to gather likeable party. I really found very few companions I liked. And I was sort of forced to use them all time even that I didn't like them, since well. HEALERS ARE TOTALLY OP. Other mage specializations are crap. Cos they are only ones able to heal your dudes you always need to pick heal spell and go for revive...
- Story didn't "heat" up enough towards the end. Act 3 was more like "ok hey lets do this so we can say we finished the game". At least that's what it felt like to me.
- Conversation choices / story choices were many times lacking real evil or brutal intents. I tried to be evil but I felt more like a carebear after listening the conversation following. Game posters etc. have tons of blood but real game feels like ti was made for saints.

[Nozybidaj]

Thorne_underfoot wrote...

And just to correct your miss-perception, they don't make games to make the game "to enjoy it".  they made it to make money.  And that means that they wanted to make something that consumers enjoyed.  Sure, they may enjoy their jobs.  And they may want to make a game that is to their liking as well.  But the bottom line is, it was made with the intent to sell to consumers.  And if the consumers don't like it, they won't buy it. 

Sorry, I know I'm knitpicking here, but the goal isn't to make something that consumers enjoy, it is to make something they will buy.  Big difference there, and it usually shows in the end product.

That is all, carry on.....

[Teredan]

Aaleel wrote...

DA2 needed the companion dialogue more than Origins. If it was supposed to be a personal story over a decade, you should have built up relationships with your party on a personal level. But the characters in DA2 just seemed hollow.

Then your family, they gave you a family and assumed you would care about them because they called them your family. They never developed the family component so you never really felt like you were doing things for them, trying to get them out of poverty.

The game really should have started in Lothering before the darkspawn struck. Maybe have a scene where Templars come and you have to hide Bethany from them, show how much she's afraid to go to the circle. Make it personal, make you want to protect you family.

It's like they dropped all of the companion/family interaction just to add in more combat to appeal to COD crowd they were going after.

I agree, that's also one of the bummers of DA2 you play over the span of supposedly 7 years but there really isn't any difference whatsoever in relationships nor enviremont. That's a heavy immersionbreaker. Even the crappy village where I live has more noticable changes over a span of 3 years than Kirkwall did over 7. Shops close, new ones open, new cinema etc etc. And I don't think I need to give examples for relationships.

[zeejay21]

I don't think so - DA2, to me, is like an experiment. I, too, like the fast paced combat (too fast, in fact, I had to pause to select my target). Again, as I said many times, DA2 is a different game than DA:O. BioWare made several mistakes with it but with such strong and passionate feedback, they'll fix it by refining it's features.

That's what creative developers do. Instead of going back, they move further.

So no worries, DA3 may be the best entry in the series yet. Of course, our hunger needs to be sated with DA2 DLCs and expansion packs first. ; )

Modifié par zeejay21, 21 avril 2011 - 06:30 .

[Azriel77]

I HOPE they go back to DA:O style in every way.

[Teredan]

Azriel77 wrote...

I HOPE they go back to DA:O style in every way.

That would be very lame.
I don't want DA:O I want something better that is a logical evolution of DA:O.
A game of 2009 will not wow me in 2014(which I think is a reasonable estimate of when DA3 will be released)

Modifié par Teredan, 21 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[Tommy6860]

jylilaht wrote...

- Conversation choices / story choices were many times lacking real evil or brutal intents. I tried to be evil but I felt more like a carebear after listening the conversation following. Game posters etc. have tons of blood but real game feels like ti was made for saints.

OK, I thought I'd seen them all, but this one is probably the best description of the conversation system I've seen to date in the DA2 forums. classic, this gave me a good chuckle and TY.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I'm not looking to be "wowed" or for something "fresh".

I just want a setting that makes sense, a story that's not full of holes*, and gameplay that is smooth, integrated with story and setting, and doesn't make me frustrated or confused.


*EDIT:  And that is driven by player decisions as much as possible. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 21 avril 2011 - 07:22 .

[AAHook2]

Persephone wrote...

AAHook2 wrote...

I wish they would go back to more of a Origins style so that the people who came in and started saying the Dragon Age 2 was an overall improvement would lose interest and play something else.

I kind of don't understand how people can state that they really didn't like Origins, yet they decided to play Dragon Age 2. Why?
I sometimes get the sinking feeling that the people who like Dragon Age 2, never even played Dragon Age Origins, and so to make themselves feel like they're not complete newbs, they talk a lot of nonsense about Origins being inferior to the sequel. That's just what it feels like to me.

And I sometimes get the feeling that the people who dislike DAII in favor of Origins never even played DAII. (And I'd be right in some cases, as they have admitted to it....) See what I did there?

Never mind those who like it being attacked, belittled, scorned and mocked at pretty much every turn.

I've played DAO many, MANY times, know it pretty much inside out, I've done Mod Tutorials on it (Not on Modding but which Mods to use, how to combine them etc.) , I'm writing DAO fan fiction and reading DAO fan fiction.... I still love DAII and think it beats its predecessor in several ways and vice versa. I don't see why it MUST be one OR the other.

But I also don't see how Awakening can be called superior to anything.

Your assertion that a fan of Origins wouldn't play Dragon Age 2 may be correct if said fan read through the reviews from other fans and decided it wasn't worth their time.
I wouldn't see the point for such a person to post their opinion.

I'm kind of at a loss at how someone who supposedly loved Origins enough to write fanfic about it, could possibly prefer Dragon Age 2.
Is it just because it's different? I mean, there are some things I enjoyed about Dragon Age 2, but I honestly can't think of a single thing that I couldn't do without in the game compared to Origins.

I can agree with you about Awakenings in some respects, but simply continuing the tale of the Warden was enough of a thrill to play it a few times. I liked the Architect and the concept of more independent Darkspawn. Hated that there was no love interest or returning companions to play outside of Oghren. I thought Oghren's side plot was sweet though.

I tried to like Dragon Age 2. I even got to the point where knowing how to get to places in Kirkwall was kind of fun. By the end of the story though, it just all felt tacked on and hollow.
FABLE 2 SPOILERS (if anyone cares)

Fable 2 had a big time gap. A 10 year time gap. It was superbly done. Everything you did in Albion had a consequence in that time gap. There were some gaps logic, and bugs of course, but the emotional impact was there. You could almost smell the change.
By the end of your game, you would have gone far in terms of distance as well as time and change of life. The gripe I had was that your children didn't grow up realistically, and you spouse didn't really age, and they kind of treated your 10 year disappearance as if it was another of your week-long excursions to the far end of the country.

So, Dragon Age 2's touting of this grand scale of time, is neither new, innovative or particularly well done.  I wound up going to the Black Emporium to change my looks every Act, just to give MYSELF the illusion that time has passed.
From Origins through Witch Hunt, you felt like you were going a long way over a long time. It was just utterly more satisfying than anything in Dragon Age 2 accross the board. The graphics in Origins really aren't that bad. The combat really depends on what style you played. I liked very much being an assassin/scout rogue. I thought it felt clearly defined what I was doing. Writing, characters, story...
Awakenings' rune system was a horor to behold. I really didn't spend much time on the rune system for Dragon Age 2. I never felt the need for it. Still ANYTHING was going to be an improvement over the broken rune system from Awakenings..
I don't know. Of all of the modern RPGs that I've played, Origins is still the best and most gratifying. Dragon Age 2 is far from it. Hey, but if you like it so much...that's your right.
It would have been so much better if the only thing they worked on was the graphics and the pace of combat.
Everything else they've done from the narrative structure to the conversation wheel, has been a disaster if you ask me.

[Sainthood85]

Origins had much better combat, granted once my Warden Mage hit lvl a certain level it was a cakewalk since nothing could damage him, get through all the infinite healing, or even move for that matter.

Seriously who thought it was a good idea to make so much blood in DA:2 and those god AWFUL melee animations? seriously?

[Sanguinerin]

Personally, I'm hoping the backlash is successful and that we do get something more like Origins again. If the developers continue in the same direction as this game, then I'll probably abandon the series and look elsewhere.

[Teredan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I'm not looking to be "wowed" or for something "fresh".

I just want a setting that makes sense, a story that's not full of holes*, and gameplay that is smooth, integrated with story and setting, and doesn't make me frustrated or confused.


*EDIT:  And that is driven by player decisions as much as possible. 

good for you, I have higher standarts I don't like to pay for the same game in nicer graphics.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Teredan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I'm not looking to be "wowed" or for something "fresh".

I just want a setting that makes sense, a story that's not full of holes*, and gameplay that is smooth, integrated with story and setting, and doesn't make me frustrated or confused.


*EDIT:  And that is driven by player decisions as much as possible. 

good for you, I have higher standarts I don't like to pay for the same game in nicer graphics.

You don't have higher standards, you have different standards. 

Hard to objectively call my standards "lower" when about 98% of all video games produced fail to meet them.