26 réponses à ce sujet

[rcollins1701]

Reading through the forums, it seems that most people, regardless of class or play-style, fought the Arishok in much he same way: attack, deplete health and stamina/mana, drink potions, run around until talents/spells cool down, repeat. This makes a rather climactic confrontation with a major antagonist seem rather lackluster, possibly even a bit cartoonish. The flip side, though, is the battle with Loghain in DA:O. In all of my playthroughs (around nine or so), this battle went the same regardless of class: stun talent/spell first attack, slaughter Loghain before he gets off another attack.
 
I think of the Harvester (GoA and DA2), Xebenkek (sp?), Meredith and Hybris, but those relied heavily on waves and multiple enemies. Exciting, yes, but not single combat. So, what are your thoughts on how to make single combat like that between the player and the Arishok or Loghain climactic, challenging and exciting without being like either of the other two examples?

[BlueMew]

For me, that battle demands Casual gameplay every time just to get it over with quickly. What exactly is the fun of facing an opponent that can one-shot you... maybe it would need more special abilities without relying on the massive damage/knockdowns? A way to have 'waves' of something without multiple enemies?

Though that would favour some classes too heavily, I'm sure. It's hard to balance. Maybe the whole thing of battling a sledgehammer should be forgotten... although winning a duel made for some nice story elements.

[Cutlass Jack]

My fight with the Arishok was a great time. Loved it so much more than the Loghain duel. Was very dramatic. Backflipping out of the way of charges and hitting him from behind as I tricked him into running over his own men. It couldn't have gone better. Was a cross between a swashbuckling duel and a bullfight.

But keep in mind it was my Duelist rogue who was in an Isabela romance. It was was like without realizing it, his life had been leading up to that exact fight.

If I were a healing spec mage I doubt I would have felt as engaged. But then if I were a healing spec mage I'd probably have skipped the very optional duel.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 20 avril 2011 - 07:07 .

[TheAwesomologist]

I've yet to fight him in a party and I'm about to face him on Hardcore with my Warrior. On normal the fight really only dragged with my Mage. The Rogue and Warrior were able to do it in under 10 or so minutes. The Mage looked like a Tom & Jerry cartoon with Jerry winning out in the end. I was just waiting for the Arishok to run over a rake or something.

Is there any XP difference if you fight with the party? I imagine the only story difference is the dialog Cassandra has afterwards.

[enhancedhpb]

He is weak against force mages in particular.

Modifié par enhancedhpb, 20 avril 2011 - 07:27 .

[Forst1999]

That battle should have been done in phases. Phase A: The Arishok is a unstoppable killing machine, forcing you in the defensive. Phase B: You get an opportunity to kick him out of this and deal some blows to him. Then back to Phase A. Would have been better than constant running and better than "oops, Loghain is dead already".

[Augustei]

rcollins1701 wrote...

Reading through the forums, it seems that most people, regardless of class or play-style, fought the Arishok in much he same way: attack, deplete health and stamina/mana, drink potions, run around until talents/spells cool down, repeat. This makes a rather climactic confrontation with a major antagonist seem rather lackluster, possibly even a bit cartoonish. The flip side, though, is the battle with Loghain in DA:O. In all of my playthroughs (around nine or so), this battle went the same regardless of class: stun talent/spell first attack, slaughter Loghain before he gets off another attack.
 
I think of the Harvester (GoA and DA2), Xebenkek (sp?), Meredith and Hybris, but those relied heavily on waves and multiple enemies. Exciting, yes, but not single combat. So, what are your thoughts on how to make single combat like that between the player and the Arishok or Loghain climactic, challenging and exciting without being like either of the other two examples?

Fight the Arishok? Oh no I didn't do that lol, i gave him Isabela and sent him on his merry way =D

[hoorayforicecream]

I think the main issue with dueling the Arishok is that the game's combat system is designed to fight many enemies at once, with a tight team. A solo character experience leaves you feeling more vulnerable, and a single hard-to-kill enemy with a large life bar can be daunting.

Furthermore, if the enemy does not provide a longer-than-usual battle experience, it feels anticlimactic. You spent all this time building up to this moment; it should not feel like it is over in a flash.

So here's how I would do it. You split the fight into a few phases, where you start by fighting the Arishok hand to hand, much like it is now.

For the first ~33% of his life or so, you tussle in melee. Maybe he drinks a single potion here, with a pithy comment.

After reducing him to 2/3 of his health, play a short cutscene with him stumbling back. Maybe he makes a comment like "I knew that you would not be as easy to kill as the rest of the Bas", some sort of remark showing respect and that he is interested in getting into the fight. Now switch the fight up some. He starts grabbing furniture, people, random objects and hurling them at you. Maybe Hawke has to dodge the thrown objects, maybe close some distance. If you get close and attack him in melee while he's lifting the object over his head, he drops it and is stunned for a moment, then performs a stun/knockback move and runs to another area where he resumes hurling stuff at you.

Once you reduce him to the final 33% of his health, another cutscene. He says something else about respecting you, how you would have made a great addition to the Qun, and how it is a real shame he has to squish you beneath his boot. He takes his two weapons, snaps them together, and now they are a cool-looking two-handed double weapon or something. His range increases somewhat, he gains a ranged attack (maybe he hurls his weapon, pinning you to the ground, then charges), and he enrages. Maybe now you can trick him into the piles of furniture he was throwing at you before, where it falls on him and he gets stunned.

Finally, you kill him. Seems like it'd be a lot more interesting if you break it up across phases that feel different, and you get a little more characterization of it being a real duel.

If you don't duel him, leave the fight with him + other Qunari troops the same.

[Wulfram]

I think Bioware should give up on 1 vs 1 battles in Dragon Age. The system is designed for party vs party battles.

The ones in Origins worked only because they were easy

[Emergent System]

I never chose the duel. All those soldiers that were happy to slaughter civilians didn't get to just walk away from that, oh no.

[Huntress]

As a healer mage was hard to beat the arishok, as a rogue was a blast, haven't finished the warrior.. I do not like to play as 2 hand warrior, but the game doesn't have DW warriors.. so Rogues rules!

[Rifneno]

Emergent System wrote...

I never chose the duel. All those soldiers that were happy to slaughter civilians didn't get to just walk away from that, oh no.

Exactly my line of thought.  My biggest problem with the scene is that we don't get any properly aggressive dialogue options.  I wanted to initiate combat by hurling a fireball at his precious tome.

[The Angry One]

Saw this in that hilarious images thread, don't know who drew it but it sums up my feelings on this fight..

[Huntress]

The Angry One wrote...

Saw this in that hilarious images thread, don't know who drew it but it sums up my feelings on this fight..

Thats my mage!! RUN! lol yes is sad and funny

[Deified Data]

Generally, I'd agree that most classes cannot practically engage him in open combat, forcing them to run in circles and use generally under-handed tactics.

That being said, sword and board warrior are capable of dueling the arishok magnificently without having to run around at all. I was able to get in his face and start smacking him around from the get-go, until he died. I used 2-3 potions in that fight. The "closing-in" attack for shield-users is extremely quick and effective in this fight.

[PsychoBlonde]

rcollins1701 wrote...
So, what are your thoughts on how to make single combat like that between the player and the Arishok or Loghain climactic, challenging and exciting without being like either of the other two examples?

Change up the way the fight functions, that's what.  The entire combat mechanics of Dragon Age are based around you having to manage a PARTY during the combat. This is a difficult task even with pausing--there are a lot of things going on and a lot of things to monitor.  Then they bring in these single-combats and you no longer need any of the skill you've built up in monitoring and controlling multiple people.

So why even have the combat as a regular combat?  Turn it into a mini-game or something similar that suddenly requires you to master a completely different and perhaps rather complex series of actions in order to succeed.  (This will also have the benefit of making it so success isn't so build-dependent, either.)  They've had this sort of thing in past games, albeit in an intentionally campy way sometimes.

Or, even better (from my perspective), don't have the fight at all.  Have the outcome be determined by various things you do shortly before the "fight".  Then when you get to the "I challenge you!" part, just have the Warden/Hawke pull out the badass and nail Loghain/The Arishok to the floor.

[PsychoBlonde]

Rifneno wrote...
Exactly my line of thought.  My biggest problem with the scene is that we don't get any properly aggressive dialogue options.  I wanted to initiate combat by hurling a fireball at his precious tome.

Yeah, having an option to destroy the tome would have been great, too.  I would also have liked to have been able to tell off the various spectators afterward.  "Oh, you're CHEERING huh?  I didn't see you doing anything constructive earlier!  Stop your noise and go home!"

[Deified Data]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

So why even have the combat as a regular combat?  Turn it into a mini-game or something similar that suddenly requires you to master a completely different and perhaps rather complex series of actions in order to succeed.  (This will also have the benefit of making it so success isn't so build-dependent, either.)  They've had this sort of thing in past games, albeit in an intentionally campy way sometimes.

For Metal Gear Solid fans, the final duel with Ocelot in MGS4 springs vividly to mind, here.

[Amagoi]

Psycho's idea sounds great. I'd love a one-on-one minigame. It'd be a lot more fun than just watching a cutscene.

Maybe they could also scale the opponent to your PC? If you're playing a Blood Mage, have the opponent have strengths and weaknesses specific to the BM spec. Same for Templars, etc. It'd make the fight a lot more interesting in multiple play-throughs, while still feeling like a battle and not a mini-game.

[highcastle]

Deified Data wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

So why even have the combat as a regular combat?  Turn it into a mini-game or something similar that suddenly requires you to master a completely different and perhaps rather complex series of actions in order to succeed.  (This will also have the benefit of making it so success isn't so build-dependent, either.)  They've had this sort of thing in past games, albeit in an intentionally campy way sometimes.

For Metal Gear Solid fans, the final duel with Ocelot in MGS4 springs vividly to mind, here.

I know that battle was hit-or-miss for fans, but I quite enjoyed it. I'd be down for something similar the next time a duel comes along. The problem is, not all classes/builds are equipped to duel without some serious kiting. And thought it's worth it to hear Cassandra respect my mage somewhat, the fight itself is a bit more tedious and less heroic. If the fight required something different, like a mini-game (though please no QTEs), I think that might work better.

There's also the Shadow of the Colossus method, where you have to get to a specific spot on/near the boss to launch a specific type of attack.

[The Globalizer]

I absolutely despised the Arishok battle. I just don't see the need for 1-on-1 duels in DA.

[Barefoot Warrior]

This is the one part of the game that really surprised me. And, it was a challenge. I too was running around like crazy ( a Mage the first time and Warrior the second). As a Mage, forget it, I got slammed by one shot and finally gave into an all out fight. The second as a Warrior was a great challenge and I did enjoy that. I had to use some strategy to figure his moves out and found out that he could get stuck in a wall. I did this one again (reloaded) and fought him again, but, this time with no armor just to see what would happen. Great fun, took me about ten minutes but finally got him down. I will admit that I played this at the normal level, good enough for me..lol. Frankly, I thought this was the only good part of the game, the mutual respect between the two made this worth while to me.

[haroldhardluck]

rcollins1701 wrote...
Reading through the forums, it seems that most people, regardless of class or play-style, fought the Arishok in much he same way: attack, deplete health and stamina/mana, drink potions, run around until talents/spells cool down, repeat.

I fought Arishok two different ways depending on my character class. As a warrior, my character could go toe to toe with the Arishok. They had the health and stamina points and the really good armor to last until the cooling periods for using the potions ended. So no running around for them. It was a mano a mano slugfest.

With the other classes, some running around was required. The rogue had the easier time as (s)he had all sorts of evasion abilities. My mage had the hardest time as the disabling spells such as Paralyze either did not work or wore off quickly.

Harold

[kreite]

I was a healing mage with some elemental spells so the battle was rather funny, it consisted of running around and letting off a fireball or winters grasp as much as possible which seemed to have little affect, and laughing as his charges got stuck in the pillars we were circling,

It was fun, but it could've been better

[FedericoV]

Duels should play to different rules, even something more arcadish and/or based on cinematic QTE would be better. The duel with the Arishock and Loghain were not that good and nearly comical being played by normal game rules.

Modifié par FedericoV, 21 avril 2011 - 12:13 .