184 réponses à ce sujet

[DemonLord4lf]

I know Merril is all for helping demons, because she thinks you can outsmart them. But when i took her into the fade with me to help Feynrial (sp?), she made it sound like helping the sloth demon was a bad idea. So I refused to help the sloth demon. However, this caused me to gain rivalry points with her. Was this a glitch or is Merril really stupid?

[Deified Data]

Naw, she's just dumb.

[DemonLord4lf]

She sure does seem to be...

[highcastle]

I think she mostly just wants to make you aware of the risks, but ultimately thinks siding with the demon is A-Okay. I don't take her too many places with me, though, since I play a mage already and Anders is attached at my hip. I also tend to rival her anyway, so getting those little bumps isn't a problem to me.

[DemonLord4lf]

I think she's an idiot to be honest. I try to go with her, she said it was probably a bad idea to let the sloth demon posses the boy, and then she gets upset...

[Maria Caliban]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

I know Merril is all for helping demons, because she thinks you can outsmart them. But when i took her into the fade with me to help Feynrial (sp?), she made it sound like helping the sloth demon was a bad idea. So I refused to help the sloth demon. However, this caused me to gain rivalry points with her. Was this a glitch or is Merril really stupid?

Merrill tells you to be cautious in your dealing with the demon. Whenever you meet a demon, she tends to prefer you see what it's offering you.

If you talk with Torpor, ask what he wants, and then attack him or agree with his terms, she won't give you rivalry points.

[DemonLord4lf]

i see, ok thanks

[Rifneno]

Deified Data wrote...

Naw, she's just dumb.

This.  Merrill makes Sandal look like Mordin.

[dgcatanisiri]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Merrill tells you to be cautious in your dealing with the demon. Whenever you meet a demon, she tends to prefer you see what it's offering you.

If you talk with Torpor, ask what he wants, and then attack him or agree with his terms, she won't give you rivalry points.

I can see where she's coming from with that - the Dalish don't distinguish between demons and spirits. As Isabela mentions, the ideals that the spirits represent only work in the Fade, the realm of ideas. As we see with Justice, expose them to the real world and they become twisted. They're black and white creatures and can not get their minds around the world of grey we live in, so they twist in on themselves.

That said, I don't deal with demons.

[LobselVith8]

Deified Data wrote...

Naw, she's just dumb.

Because all dumb people use blood magic without incident for several years and how to reconstruct a two thousand year old elven device...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

I know Merril is all for helping demons, because she thinks you can outsmart them.

Merrill never states anything of the kind. She acknowledges spirits and demons as spirits because the distinction between 'spirits' and 'demons' is Andrastian (religious) in nature. She also addresses to Anders that all spirits are dangerous, and she's sorry he didn't realize that.

DemonLord4lf wrote...

She sure does seem to be...

Why do so many people label people who get culture shock in a foreign place as dumb? Not understanding a foreign culture doesn't make someone dumb. This bothers me and I see people do it a lot in real life.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 avril 2011 - 04:23 .

[Maria Caliban]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Merrill tells you to be cautious in your dealing with the demon. Whenever you meet a demon, she tends to prefer you see what it's offering you.

If you talk with Torpor, ask what he wants, and then attack him or agree with his terms, she won't give you rivalry points.

I can see where she's coming from with that - the Dalish don't distinguish between demons and spirits. As Isabela mentions, the ideals that the spirits represent only work in the Fade, the realm of ideas. As we see with Justice, expose them to the real world and they become twisted. They're black and white creatures and can not get their minds around the world of grey we live in, so they twist in on themselves.

That said, I don't deal with demons.

Nor do I.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, Torpor's deal is the best reward that quest offers. I like that this is the case. If demons offer nothing of interest or always turn on you, interacting with one simply makes the PC a sucker.

[DemonLord4lf]

She doesn't say you can outsmart them persay. But she does say something along those lines. If you take her with you to the Deep Roads she says this when you encounter the hunger demon.

[IanPolaris]

I honestly think much of it is bad writing. The NPC reactions all seem to follow a certain formula whether it makes sense in the dialog/narative or not. One of Merrill's preset formulas seems to be "demon-lover",i.e. she will always give friendship if you side with a demon whether it makes sense or not.

I don't slam Merrill for this. I slam poor writing and formulaic 'friendship/rivialy' awards for this.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

She doesn't say you can outsmart them persay. But she does say something along those lines. If you take her with you to the Deep Roads she says this when you encounter the hunger demon.

That's not correct, she addresses that Hawke needs to be careful if he's going to use the knowledge that the Hunger Demon has. Merrill is able to recognize that its a Hunger Demon that occupied the Rock Wraith, and she has no problem attacking the Hunger Demon if Hawke asks her to.

[DemonLord4lf]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

She doesn't say you can outsmart them persay. But she does say something along those lines. If you take her with you to the Deep Roads she says this when you encounter the hunger demon.

That's not correct, she addresses that Hawke needs to be careful if he's going to use the knowledge that the Hunger Demon has. Merrill is able to recognize that its a Hunger Demon that occupied the Rock Wraith, and she has no problem attacking the Hunger Demon if Hawke asks her to.

No she does have a problem. If you attack the hunger demon, you gain +5 rivalry with her.

[LobselVith8]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

No she does have a problem. If you attack the hunger demon, you gain +5 rivalry with her.

You don't have to accept the deal with the Abomination Profane, you can have her attack the Hunger Demon without rivalry.

[Maria Caliban]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

No she does have a problem. If you attack the hunger demon, you gain +5 rivalry with her.

I asked her to attack it for me and got +5 friendship.

[The Angry One]

From a story standpoint, Torpor reveals useful information by talking to him - that two powerful demons are vying for control of Feynriel and have driven off all other competition.
Thus, speaking to him is useful. So Merril has a point.

Merril is against killing demons for being demons (they're all spirits anyway).
Merril is not against killing them after wringing out anything useful from them and moving on.

Modifié par The Angry One, 21 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[erilben]

If you don't have Anders with you, you will get rivalry from Merrill for not agreeing to make a deal with the demon. There's no way to avoid it.

[Nameless2345]

Personally I've got the impression that her reactions are based on her insecurity.
I.E. when H. condemns dealing with demons in principle (kill on sight policy, basically) she can't help but view it as a condemnation of her actions.
Keep in mind also that rivals!=enemies.
Friendship with Merrill = support of her blood magic and deal with a demon. Can be based on either faith in Merrill's skill/willpower or on being blood mage him/herself.
Rivalry with Merrill is basically still being friends, helping her, but strongly disagreeing with the whole demon/blood magic thing.

[erilben]

The Angry One wrote...

From a story standpoint, Torpor reveals useful information by talking to him - that two powerful demons are vying for control of Feynriel and have driven off all other competition.
Thus, speaking to him is useful. So Merril has a point.

Merril is against killing demons for being demons (they're all spirits anyway).
Merril is not against killing them after wringing out anything useful from them and moving on.

But you can talk to the demon. Ask it all the questions, and then say "I don't make deals with demons" or whatever that option is. Merrill will give you rivarly points still.

Only way to avoid getting rivalry is to take Anders with you, and pick the option where you say you are willing to make the deal. Justice gets angry and says he will attack you. Then you can change your mind and decide not to go along with it. That's when you get no rivalry from Merrill.

[Maria Caliban]

erilben wrote...

If you don't have Anders with you, you will get rivalry from Merrill for not agreeing to make a deal with the demon. There's no way to avoid it.

So much for her being the nice one.

"It would be horrible to make this boy a Tranquil! But if you turn him into an abomination for two attribute points, that's fine."

Edit: I just reloaded a save, and you're right. Even if you listen to the demon first, you get +5 rivalry. Strange enough, if you show interest, she says, "I'm not sure we should be doing this."

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Nameless2345 wrote...

Personally I've got the impression that her reactions are based on her insecurity.
I.E. when H. condemns dealing with demons in principle (kill on sight policy, basically) she can't help but view it as a condemnation of her actions.

I don't get that impression at all. She seems to have more of an issue with the Andrastian view of spirits and demons as a Dalish elf, because she doesn't adhere to their religious teachings. If the demon had knowledge that could provide a way to escape from the Deep Roads, why shouldn't Hawke hear the demon out? Had he killed the demon and never been able to know how to escape from the chambers, they would have all died because Hawke shot first. 

Nameless2345 wrote...

Keep in mind also that rivals!=enemies.
Friendship with Merrill = support of her blood magic and deal with a demon. Can be based on either faith in Merrill's skill/willpower or on being blood mage him/herself.
Rivalry with Merrill is basically still being friends, helping her, but strongly disagreeing with the whole demon/blood magic thing.

It's support of her blood magic (which some Grey Warden mages use) and her construction of the Eluvian. Merrill has no problem killing the abomination for Hawke, and the quest Night Terrors (where Hawke goes after Feynriel) forces all the characters (except Anders) to betray Hawke basically railroads everyone with no consideration for the relationship the companions have with Hawke.

[The Angry One]

Frankly the fact that there's no reactionary dialog for Torpor's offer without Anders seems like a bug or poorly thought out dialog to me.
Going back to the same thing you'd say before hearing what he has to say seems silly - my intention is not to say "I don't deal with demons" because *I just freaking asked a demon to explain his offer so clearly I AM dealing with demons on some level*.
A more appropriate response would be "Your offer sucks" or "Bite me."