184 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

She also apparently hates Feynriel, or loves abominations (Anders aside) since you get friendship points for selling him out to Torpor. I think she's just a daemonophile.

[IanPolaris]

The Baconer wrote...

She also apparently hates Feynriel, or loves abominations (Anders aside) since you get friendship points for selling him out to Torpor. I think she's just a daemonophile.

She hates Feynriel because Feynriel as an elf-blooded HUMAN is getting the patience and undestaning that Merethari never gave to Merrill and the Elluvian....and quite honestly, Merrill has basis for this hatred/jealously.  Merethari is being hypocritical at best.

-Polaris

[The Baconer]

IanPolaris wrote...
She hates Feynriel because Feynriel as an elf-blooded HUMAN is getting the patience and undestaning that Merethari never gave to Merrill and the Elluvian....and quite honestly, Merrill has basis for this hatred/jealously.  Merethari is being hypocritical at best.

-Polaris

... I don't know if this is tongue-in-cheek or not so I have no comment.

[IanPolaris]

The Baconer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
She hates Feynriel because Feynriel as an elf-blooded HUMAN is getting the patience and undestaning that Merethari never gave to Merrill and the Elluvian....and quite honestly, Merrill has basis for this hatred/jealously.  Merethari is being hypocritical at best.

-Polaris

... I don't know if this is tongue-in-cheek or not so I have no comment.

I am quite serious.  She says as much when Merethari arrives in the Alienage and she is in the group.  She says, "She never showed me this sort of understanding that she's showing to a human."

She's dead right too.

-Polaris

[The Baconer]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am quite serious.  She says as much when Merethari arrives in the Alienage and she is in the group.  She says, "She never showed me this sort of understanding that she's showing to a human."

She's dead right too.

-Polaris

Dammit, you're right. That totally justifies ****ing over a random kid by giving his mind to a demon.

[MaxPain210]

Lol, i must say, that Merril girl is one odd person. Saying that, i still use her in my party. Helps me take out the simple guys. hahaha.

[LobselVith8]

The Baconer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I am quite serious.  She says as much when Merethari arrives in the Alienage and she is in the group.  She says, "She never showed me this sort of understanding that she's showing to a human."

She's dead right too.

-Polaris

Dammit, you're right. That totally justifies ****ing over a random kid by giving his mind to a demon.

Considering her approval doesn't match with her dialogue, it's likely a bug.

[mesmerizedish]

I can't imagine that simply refusing the demon's deal gets Merrill rivalry, period. That just seems bizarre, and it must be a bug.

But, if this turns into a Merrill vs. Marethari fight, I am so with my girl. Who is Merrill, not Marethari.

[IanPolaris]

The Baconer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I am quite serious.  She says as much when Merethari arrives in the Alienage and she is in the group.  She says, "She never showed me this sort of understanding that she's showing to a human."

She's dead right too.

-Polaris

Dammit, you're right. That totally justifies ****ing over a random kid by giving his mind to a demon.

Whoah there, Tex.  I never said anything about justifying giving some kid over to a demon!  I just got done with an evil Hawke that did that, and so far it's by far the most vile thing I've done (to the point where I wanted to take a shower IRL afterwards)....although the extra talent is nice. 

I simply opined as to where this feeling (which is reflected by friendship/rivalry) might be coming from.   That's all.

-Polaris

[DemonLord4lf]

I'm just going by her reactions in dialog. She says it seems like a bad idea, so i told the demon no. Then I get rivalry points for attacking said demon.

[Deified Data]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

She doesn't say you can outsmart them persay. But she does say something along those lines. If you take her with you to the Deep Roads she says this when you encounter the hunger demon.

That's not correct, she addresses that Hawke needs to be careful if he's going to use the knowledge that the Hunger Demon has. Merrill is able to recognize that its a Hunger Demon that occupied the Rock Wraith, and she has no problem attacking the Hunger Demon if Hawke asks her to.

For all her posturing, she falls victim to her own pride in the Fade awful quickly. I find her theories on demons and spirits to be quite appealing, but she's unable to follow her own advice. How someone could fall under the sway of a demon in the Fade and then continue preaching about how "careful" she is, I do not know. I wanted to like Merrill - Hell, I do like Merrill in a fatherly/big-brotherly way - but she's just too stupid to live sometimes.

[IanPolaris]

Deified Data wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

She doesn't say you can outsmart them persay. But she does say something along those lines. If you take her with you to the Deep Roads she says this when you encounter the hunger demon.

That's not correct, she addresses that Hawke needs to be careful if he's going to use the knowledge that the Hunger Demon has. Merrill is able to recognize that its a Hunger Demon that occupied the Rock Wraith, and she has no problem attacking the Hunger Demon if Hawke asks her to.

For all her posturing, she falls victim to her own pride in the Fade awful quickly. I find her theories on demons and spirits to be quite appealing, but she's unable to follow her own advice. How someone could fall under the sway of a demon in the Fade and then continue preaching about how "careful" she is, I do not know. I wanted to like Merrill - Hell, I do like Merrill in a fatherly/big-brotherly way - but she's just too stupid to live sometimes.

Fenris falls just as quickly unless Merrill is there.  ALL the NPCs do...it's scripted except Anders (who is already possessed) and Sebastian who will not go.

-Polaris

[Deified Data]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

She doesn't say you can outsmart them persay. But she does say something along those lines. If you take her with you to the Deep Roads she says this when you encounter the hunger demon.

That's not correct, she addresses that Hawke needs to be careful if he's going to use the knowledge that the Hunger Demon has. Merrill is able to recognize that its a Hunger Demon that occupied the Rock Wraith, and she has no problem attacking the Hunger Demon if Hawke asks her to.

For all her posturing, she falls victim to her own pride in the Fade awful quickly. I find her theories on demons and spirits to be quite appealing, but she's unable to follow her own advice. How someone could fall under the sway of a demon in the Fade and then continue preaching about how "careful" she is, I do not know. I wanted to like Merrill - Hell, I do like Merrill in a fatherly/big-brotherly way - but she's just too stupid to live sometimes.

Fenris falls just as quickly unless Merrill is there.  ALL the NPCs do...it's scripted except Anders (who is already possessed) and Sebastian who will not go.

-Polaris

I'm aware. The difference lies in the fact that Fenris, Aveline and co. aren't consciously courting demons. They recognize the threat, and aren't all that surprised when they're posessed. Merrill, on the otherhand, is posessed, and then continues her dangerous behavior. She doesn't learn from her experiences.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I was thinking maybe its easier for demons to trick people in the fade because its like their home ground. Everyone did seem to be pretty easily tricked considering how some of the characters usually act around demons.

[LobselVith8]

Deified Data wrote...

For all her posturing, she falls victim to her own pride in the Fade awful quickly.

In a quest that railroads all the characters to betray Hawke.

Deified Data wrote...

I find her theories on demons and spirits to be quite appealing, but she's unable to follow her own advice.

You mean the fact that she's not Andrastian and doesn't follow Andrastian teachings on spirits and demons?

Deified Data wrote...

How someone could fall under the sway of a demon in the Fade and then continue preaching about how "careful" she is, I do not know.

 
Probably because the quest railroads all the characters to betray Hawke, perhaps?

Deified Data wrote...

I wanted to like Merrill - Hell, I do like Merrill in a fatherly/big-brotherly way - but she's just too stupid to live sometimes.

Merrill isn't stupid simply because you disagree with her actions.

[Deified Data]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

For all her posturing, she falls victim to her own pride in the Fade awful quickly.

In a quest that railroads all the characters to betray Hawke.

Deified Data wrote...

I find her theories on demons and spirits to be quite appealing, but she's unable to follow her own advice.

You mean the fact that she's not Andrastian and doesn't follow Andrastian teachings on spirits and demons?

Deified Data wrote...

How someone could fall under the sway of a demon in the Fade and then continue preaching about how "careful" she is, I do not know.

 
Probably because the quest railroads all the characters to betray Hawke, perhaps?

Deified Data wrote...

I wanted to like Merrill - Hell, I do like Merrill in a fatherly/big-brotherly way - but she's just too stupid to live sometimes.

Merrill isn't stupid simply because you disagree with her actions.

Revise your response after re-reading and re-considering my post, then I'll respond.

[LobselVith8]

Deified Data wrote...

I'm aware. The difference lies in the fact that Fenris, Aveline and co. aren't consciously courting demons. They recognize the threat, and aren't all that surprised when they're posessed.

The characters are all railroaded down the same path. It doesn't take any character development into consideration when it forces everyone down the same path.

Also, Merrill courting a demon outside of this quest when she spends several years working on the Eluvian and decides to take a risk in dealing with Audacity to complete her work (which is why she asks Hawke to kill her if she loses a battle of wills with Audacity).

Deified Data wrote...

Merrill, on the otherhand, is posessed, and then continues her dangerous behavior. She doesn't learn from her experiences.

That's your opinion that it's dangerous, but not everyone shares your opinion.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 avril 2011 - 01:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

For all her posturing, she falls victim to her own pride in the Fade awful quickly.

In a quest that railroads all the characters to betray Hawke.

Deified Data wrote...

I find her theories on demons and spirits to be quite appealing, but she's unable to follow her own advice.

You mean the fact that she's not Andrastian and doesn't follow Andrastian teachings on spirits and demons?

Deified Data wrote...

How someone could fall under the sway of a demon in the Fade and then continue preaching about how "careful" she is, I do not know.

 
Probably because the quest railroads all the characters to betray Hawke, perhaps?

Deified Data wrote...

I wanted to like Merrill - Hell, I do like Merrill in a fatherly/big-brotherly way - but she's just too stupid to live sometimes.

Merrill isn't stupid simply because you disagree with her actions.

How can a quest not railroad companions?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
How can a quest not railroad companions?

Simple.  If your responses to that companion made a difference in whether or not that campaign took the demon's offer, they would not be railroaded.

That isn't permitted to happen in DA2.  It DOES happen in DAO (in the Fade).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

What? How does it matter wether or not the Champion took the offer of the Sloth demon? The Desire demon and the Pride demon (their names escape me) seduces your companions with their own offers, sort of like how the Sloth demon "seduced" Hawke with its offer.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sometimes I do get the feeling, that Lob and I are destined to disagree for all eternity.

Probably. Especially since we don't agree about this particular quest, Night Terrors. I don't think forcing all the characters to accept a deal with a demon (save Anders) does anything but artifically railroad them down a particular path, irrelevant of their character progression and standing with the protagonist.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What? How does it matter wether or not the Champion took the offer of the Sloth demon? The Desire demon and the Pride demon (their names escape me) seduces your companions with their own offers, sort of like how the Sloth demon "seduced" Hawke with its offer.

It makes all the difference in world.  Hawke (as the PC protagonist) is given a choice.  Take the Sloth demon's offer or not.  That's a moral choice with moral conseuqnceds and your Hawke can (and should) be judged based on that.  With your companions there is no choice.  If X companion is with Y party for Z demon, they will always fall to temptation by the magic of bioware.  Otherwise they will not.  Since there is no moral choice, we learn nothing about the moral chacteristics of those NPCs and thus it can not be used to judge them.

It's why you can not morally judge Shepard in Arrival for the murder of 300K+ Batarians.  Why?  He is never given the option to do otherwise. 

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

But no matter what, all your companions are railroaded. If you bring X along on mission Y he will do Z, except in some select cases. So how is it any different with this quest? Is it the fact that ALL your companions falls to temptation?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But no matter what, all your companions are railroaded. If you bring X along on mission Y he will do Z, except in some select cases. So how is it any different with this quest? Is it the fact that ALL your companions falls to temptation?

There's a distinction between characters doing things that are in-character for them, and all falling for the same bargain with a demon regardless of their standing with Hawke. The quest forces them to the position of being willing to murder someone who could be a friend or lover, and it makes little sense. It doesn't take into account the conduct of their character when it forces this artifical choice.

[EmperorSahlertz]

But that only serves to show the power of the demons in question. They were, after all, the two most powerful demons in that part of the Fade.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 02:16 .