184 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But that only serves to show the power of the demons in question. They were, after all, the two most powerful demons in that part of the Fade.

It shows that, once again, DA2 follows a linear progression that can ignore particular choices in order to tell its story. Ignoring the behavior of the characters at the specific point in time when they assist Hawke in the Fade simply to force a betrayal doesn't sound compelling to me.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But that only serves to show the power of the demons in question. They were, after all, the two most powerful demons in that part of the Fade.

No.  It only shows the power of bad and cheesy writing.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

I liked it. Because it showed the inherit danger of demons and spirits. They made the truest of lovers, the best of friends turn on eachother. That speaks volumes of their power.
Of course it doesn't fit anyhting the two of you like, so I guess it is a given that I like it...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I liked it. Because it showed the inherit danger of demons and spirits. They made the truest of lovers, the best of friends turn on eachother. That speaks volumes of their power.
Of course it doesn't fit anyhting the two of you like, so I guess it is a given that I like it...

Because it ignores character progression and the status of the respective characters in Hawke's life.

[DemonLord4lf]

People people!!! I'm not just referring to the night terror quest. She's made me question her many times before hand. I'm just wondering if she's an idiot or too naive to realize that demons dont always honor their deals.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I liked it. Because it showed the inherit danger of demons and spirits. They made the truest of lovers, the best of friends turn on eachother. That speaks volumes of their power.
Of course it doesn't fit anyhting the two of you like, so I guess it is a given that I like it...

Because it ignores character progression and the status of the respective characters in Hawke's life.

It would completely depower demons in all their shapes if your companions were just able to say: "Na-uh! I love Hawke the most in the wole wide world, and wont betray him!". It would completely destroy the image BioWare is trying to create of the demons being real dangerous beings.
That would be bad wrting. If they went along with the "love can conquer all" cliché.

As it is now, it doesn't ignore character progression, as you can have a discussion with the companions in question after they betray you, and it shows the power of demons.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

People people!!! I'm not just referring to the night terror quest. She's made me question her many times before hand. I'm just wondering if she's an idiot or too naive to realize that demons dont always honor their deals.

I just think she is a bit overconfident in her own abilities, to read a demons intentions. So she is neither naïve nor an idiot, just overconfident and inexperienced.

[LobselVith8]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

People people!!! I'm not just referring to the night terror quest. She's made me question her many times before hand. I'm just wondering if she's an idiot or too naive to realize that demons dont always honor their deals.

Merrill proficiently uses blood magic for several years and builds a two thousand year old elven device from a single shard and lore she gathered. She also addresses all spirits being dangerous. I don't think it's accurate to say she's an idiot when she demonstrates her intellect and capability time and again.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because it ignores character progression and the status of the respective characters in Hawke's life.

It would completely depower demons in all their shapes if your companions were just able to say: "Na-uh! I love Hawke the most in the wole wide world, and wont betray him!". It would completely destroy the image BioWare is trying to create of the demons being real dangerous beings.

Characters were able to resist demons in Origins. Morrigan and Sten saw through the facade, and once all of the characters realized they were in the Fade, they had the capability to resist the demon. Trying to bring the argument forth that characters can't resist demons ignores continuity.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That would be bad wrting. If they went along with the "love can conquer all" cliché.

As it is now, it doesn't ignore character progression, as you can have a discussion with the companions in question after they betray you, and it shows the power of demons.

Artifically forcing every companion into betraying Hawke doesn't provide the image of them being dangerous, it's simply more linear storytelling.

[Maria Caliban]

1. I didn't like how this quest railroaded all the companions into betraying you.
2. I thought it was appropriate for Merrill.

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

People people!!! I'm not just referring to the night terror quest. She's made me question her many times before hand. I'm just wondering if she's an idiot or too naive to realize that demons dont always honor their deals.

Actually I was more under the impression that Demons DO honor their deals, but they interprete them and add things to them, that you would rather not.  In short, I've always viewed it like the legendary deals with Satan.  Satan always kept his word....but the fine print was often a real killer (see Faust and Faustian bargin).

In this case, Merrill knows perfectly well that demons are this way and can't be trusted.  She knows it but sees no better alternative (and part of that is Merethari's own fear).

Frankly, I really dislike what DA2 did to that Dalish tribe.  It's like they had to bash the Dalish because otherwise they might actually serve as  a ratinal model of how to handle magic...but noooooo......

-Polaris

[Tigerman123]

I disagree that they were railroaded, they just failed their harrowings, which isn't surprising as they have no formal training in that regard, after all it's not just an offer, the demons also domineer your mind. If your companions could resist demons just like that, it'd be by author fiat, rather than the other way round, at least imo.

What would it say about mages who failed their harrowings, who've been trained most of their lives for that event, if not knowingly?

[DemonLord4lf]

how did they bash the dalish? They knew better then to make deals with spirits. If Merril was a keeper they would've killed her on sight, as is their way.

[LobselVith8]

Tigerman123 wrote...

What would it say about mages who failed their harrowings, who've been trained most of their lives for that event, if not knowingly?

Apprentices aren't trained for the Harrowings, they have no idea what to expect, which is why the Harrowings are a secret. However, we know from Origins that characters can face demons and resist, so it's not as impossible as some people try to make it seem to be.

[LobselVith8]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

how did they bash the dalish? They knew better then to make deals with spirits.

Merrill mentions some Keepers have become abominations. In fact, Marethari becomes one.

DemonLord4lf wrote...

If Merril was a keeper they would've killed her on sight, as is their way.

Merrill wasn't a people person, so she probably wouldn't have made a good Keeper. That doesn't mean that she was wrong for trying to help her people restore their lost knowledge of Arlathan.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Tigerman123 wrote...

What would it say about mages who failed their harrowings, who've been trained most of their lives for that event, if not knowingly?

Apprentices aren't trained for the Harrowings, they have no idea what to expect, which is why the Harrowings are a secret. However, we know from Origins that characters can face demons and resist, so it's not as impossible as some people try to make it seem to be.

In Origins 3 our of a potential a potential 10 resist the demon. One of them due to plot armor. The Warden, Morrigan and Sten. Morrigan is a mage and as so could be expected to be able to resist the temptations of a demon, Sten is apparently in possession of considerable willpower and/or are able to realize he is dreaming on his own, and the Warden of course has his plot armor to protect him.

Now you want all your companions in DA2 to resist the powers of not just any demons but the most powerful demons in that particular part of the Fade? Even worse, you ascribe the fact they can't as bad writing...

If anything. The fact that Merrill fails, yet is a capable mage, shows that the Harrowing may be of less importance than the Circle thinks.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2011 - 03:31 .

[Vearsin]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

People people!!! I'm not just referring to the night terror quest. She's made me question her many times before hand. I'm just wondering if she's an idiot or too naive to realize that demons dont always honor their deals.

Merrill is very young, mentaly speaking, and does not have the life experience to understand what shes dealing with.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In Origins 3 our of a potential a potential 10 resist the demon. One of them due to plot armor. The Warden, Morrigan and Sten. Morrigan is a mage and as so could be expected to be able to resist the temptations of a demon, Sten is apparently in possession of considerable willpower and/or are able to realize he is dreaming on his own, and the Warden of course has his plot armor to protect him.

You mean three people are able to see it's a facade, since all of them were able to resist the demon when they were made aware that they were actually in the Fade.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Now you want all your companions in DA2 to resist the powers of not just any demons but the most powerful demons in that particular part of the Fade? Even worse, you ascribe the fact they can't as bad writing...

I hope you realize that you're comparing two entirely different scenerios.

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If anything. The fact that Merrill fails, yet is a capable mage, shows that the Harrowing may be of less importance than the Circle thinks.

Arguably the Harrowing exists to weed out dangerous elements, just like the tidbits of freely accesible bloodmagic in the Circle does.

[Joy Divison]

The Night Tremors quest is an obvious railroad. No matter who you bring (except the already possessed Anders), they betray you. My guess it something to show how awesome Hawke is - especially since Marethari says something to effect that she couldn;t believe Hawke was successful whereas her companions couldn;t resist.

I definitely agree this is lazy writing; willpower and knowledge have absolutely no consequence; it's no different when your GM says, "Because I say so."

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean three people are able to see it's a facade, since all of them were able to resist the demon when they were made aware that they were actually in the Fade.

The temptation was different, though. The sloth demon offered them a dream version of their ideal reality; allegedly these demons offered the tangible real-world rewards.

[In Exile]

Joy Divison wrote...

The Night Tremors quest is an obvious railroad. No matter who you bring (except the already possessed Anders), they betray you. My guess it something to show how awesome Hawke is - especially since Marethari says something to effect that she couldn;t believe Hawke was successful whereas her companions couldn;t resist.

I definitely agree this is lazy writing; willpower and knowledge have absolutely no consequence; it's no different when your GM says, "Because I say so."

No - it's more like the other players decide their PCs are going to give in to temptation. Hawke can give in to temptation too: Topor is the one who tempts you.

[Joy Divison]

In Exile wrote...

No - it's more like the other players decide their PCs are going to give in to temptation. Hawke can give in to temptation too: Topor is the one who tempts you.

No, because the "other players" happen to be the game writers who are akin to the GM.

But Hawke can overcome Torpor whereas his weak-willed tools are incapable of doing so.  So Hawke is awesome and they are not.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 avril 2011 - 03:58 .

[Tigerman123]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Apprentices aren't trained for the
Harrowings, they have no idea what to expect, which is why the
Harrowings are a secret. However, we know from Origins that characters
can face demons and resist, so it's not as impossible as some people try
to make it seem to be.

They are trained to resist demons though, by building mental fortitude etc, that's more or less the point of educating them in the first place

[IanPolaris]

Tigerman123 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Apprentices aren't trained for the
Harrowings, they have no idea what to expect, which is why the
Harrowings are a secret. However, we know from Origins that characters
can face demons and resist, so it's not as impossible as some people try
to make it seem to be.

They are trained to resist demons though, by building mental fortitude etc, that's more or less the point of educating them in the first place

Are they?  I see very little evidence for that.  In fact when it came to battlemagic, the circle has performed poorly every time it's been called upon to supply such.

-Polaris