184 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Joy Divison wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No - it's more like the other players decide their PCs are going to give in to temptation. Hawke can give in to temptation too: Topor is the one who tempts you.

No, because the "other players" happen to be the game writers who are akin to the GM.

But Hawke can overcome Torpor whereas his weak-willed tools are incapable of doing so.  So Hawke is awesome and they are not.

Which is lazy and bad writing since Hawke is supposed to be an ordinary person that rose to extraordinary heights rather than a nearly superhuman specimine (unlike say the warden who was considered "best of a generation" in whatever their class was from the start).  The stats bear this out as well.

-Polaris

[mesmerizedish]

Joy Divison wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No - it's more like the other players decide their PCs are going to give in to temptation. Hawke can give in to temptation too: Topor is the one who tempts you.

No, because the "other players" happen to be the game writers who are akin to the GM.

But Hawke can overcome Torpor whereas his weak-willed tools are incapable of doing so.  So Hawke is awesome and they are not.

This is true. I really wish that both Hawke and her companions had to make a will saving throw... success means companions resist and Hawke gets to choose. Failure means that your companions turn on you or Hawke gives in and something bad happens.

And, of course, there needs to be some sort of failsafe in case everyone fails. If you ask me, Anders, Merrill, and Aveline should just never fail.

[In Exile]

Joy Divison wrote...
No, because the "other players" happen to be the game writers who are akin to the GM.

Why wouldn't you suppose the writers are RPGing their own characters?

To say that it was the GM deciding suggests someone 'assuming control' ... but that isn't right at all. Unless you want to say that failing to resist demons was out of character for the DA2 cast?

But Hawke can overcome Torpor whereas his weak-willed tools are incapable of doing so.  So Hawke is awesome and they are not.

Hawke is only awesome when Hawke can overcome Torpor. Otherwise Hawke isn't.

Besides, your point is contradictor. If Hawke is awesome for resisting his companions can't possibly have failed due to some fault of their own; if the default reaction was success then Hawke wouldn't be awesome at all for resisting.

IanPolaris wrote...

Which is lazy and bad writing since
Hawke is supposed to be an ordinary person that rose to extraordinary
heights rather than a nearly superhuman specimine (unlike say the warden
who was considered "best of a generation" in whatever their class was
from the start).  The stats bear this out as well.

-Polaris

Well, no. Hawke isn't supposed to be ordinary at all. Being an ordinary person and being talented are not the same thing. Einsten was an ordinary person once (poor patent office worker) but he was brilliant nevertheless (and so superhuman). Nothing strange about it.

What was contrived was the DA:O approach of everyone being such a special snowflake that they resisted demons like it was nothing (and even there, the ones who did resist were too weak to escape, and the ones who were caught up only got out because teh warden = teh awesome).

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

In
Exile wrote...

No - it's more like the other players decide their
PCs are going to give in to temptation. Hawke can give in to temptation
too: Topor is the one who tempts you.

No,
because the "other players" happen to be the game writers who are akin
to the GM.

But Hawke can overcome Torpor whereas his weak-willed
tools are incapable of doing so.  So Hawke is awesome and they are not.

And, of course, there needs
to be some sort of failsafe in case everyone fails. If you ask me,
Anders, Merrill, and Aveline should just never fail.

...Huh? Anders isn't really Anders (and he already made a deal with a demon) and so did Merill. So why wouldn't they both make deals with demons again? And why is Aveline special?

[mesmerizedish]

In Exile wrote...

...Huh? Anders isn't really Anders (and he already made a deal with a demon) and so did Merill. So why wouldn't they both make deals with demons again? And why is Aveline special?

Anders, because he's already an abomination and literally can't be messed with further, Merrill because she's established as being one who knows how to handle demons, and Aveline because she's "incorruptible."

I'm not saying that Merrill or Aveline are actually immune to possession or demonic influence. I'm saying that for the sake of a "failsafe" if will saving throws are required, they're the ones for whom an auto-pass makes sense.

[Sabariel]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Because all dumb people use blood magic without incident for several years and how to reconstruct a two thousand year old elven device...

Didn't Merrill's demon-buddy tell her how to fix the Eluvian?

[mesmerizedish]

Sabariel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Because all dumb people use blood magic without incident for several years and how to reconstruct a two thousand year old elven device...

Didn't Merrill's demon-buddy tell her how to fix the Eluvian?

No... if that were true, she wouldn't have spent six years trying to figure it out on her own.

[Sabariel]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Because all dumb people use blood magic without incident for several years and how to reconstruct a two thousand year old elven device...

Didn't Merrill's demon-buddy tell her how to fix the Eluvian?

No... if that were true, she wouldn't have spent six years trying to figure it out on her own.

I thought she said the demon was the one who gave her the idea to purify the mirror with blood magic...?

[mesmerizedish]

Sabariel wrote...

I thought she said the demon was the one who gave her the idea to purify the mirror with blood magic...?

She already knew how to cleanse the shard, but Marethari refused to help her. The demon told her how to cleanse it with blood magic, yes. But removing the Taint from the shard isn't the same as fixing the mirror.

[Sabariel]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I thought she said the demon was the one who gave her the idea to purify the mirror with blood magic...?

She already knew how to cleanse the shard, but Marethari refused to help her. The demon told her how to cleanse it with blood magic, yes. But removing the Taint from the shard isn't the same as fixing the mirror.

Yes, but I thought at some point she'd said the demon-buddy had been teaching her how to rebuild the mirror. I guess I was hallucinating

Modifié par Sabariel, 22 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[mesmerizedish]

Sabariel wrote...

Yes, but I thought at some point she'd said the demon-buddy had been teaching her how to rebuild the mirror. I guess I was hallucinating

Her Act III quest involves going back to Sundermount to ask it for help. But the demon's up on Sundermount, and she never goes back there on her own since she moved to Kirkwall.

[Tigerman123]

IanPolaris wrote...

Are they?  I see very little evidence for that.  In fact when it came to battlemagic, the circle has performed poorly every time it's been called upon to supply such.

-Polaris

Once you get past the reasons for Mages being corralled in the Circles in the first place, the purpose of the education system there has surely got to be to prevent the creation of abominations, so that Circles aren't constantly plagued by them.  The skill of mages in practical matters ain't important if they're immured in a tower, outside of a few battlemages/spirit healers .  The only qualification for being a fullblown mage is resisting possession.

You could say that the Templars don't care about how many Mages are unqualified for the Harrowing, since they're dealt with by being killed/made tranquil.  But the apprentices are educated by other Mages, who would naturally sympathise with them , they were in the same boat once after all, so you'd imagine that they at least try to give them a fighting chance.  So even if the apprentices aren't taught what the harrowing entails, they are trained to survive it, through battle magic and by developing reasoning skills to  see through a demon's deception

Modifié par Tigerman123, 22 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[Nameless2345]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Now you want all your companions in DA2 to resist the powers of not just any demons but the most powerful demons in that particular part of the Fade? Even worse, you ascribe the fact they can't as bad writing...

If anything. The fact that Merrill fails, yet is a capable mage, shows that the Harrowing may be of less importance than the Circle thinks.

No one suggests that all companions should be immune to demonic influence, I think. In my opinion companion's response to demon's mind control/temptation should depend on F/R scale, personality (self-serving hedonistic Isabela is more vulnerable, dutiful Aveline is less), completion of their quests and H's dialogue choices in the Fade. Or some subset of this.

Making ALL companions succumb to demons in like 3 seconds contradicts DA:O and common sense (how the hell naive young mages survive Harrowings at all, without any anti-demon training, when a group of adults lose instantly? How does Feyrniel, with probably less training than Merrill, resists for days?). Also, H.'s immunity is absolutely unexplained. Unlike other characters, he is merely tempted - no attempt was made to dominate his/her mind. DA:O Warden at least received the same treatment as others.   

Showing that the demons/magic are dangerous? Please, the whole game does and overdoes this.   

Modifié par Nameless2345, 22 avril 2011 - 06:30 .

[Sabariel]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Yes, but I thought at some point she'd said the demon-buddy had been teaching her how to rebuild the mirror. I guess I was hallucinating

Her Act III quest involves going back to Sundermount to ask it for help. But the demon's up on Sundermount, and she never goes back there on her own since she moved to Kirkwall.

Maybe that is what I was thinking of, her quest in Act III... or I was hallucinating. Hahaha.

[Joy Divison]

In Exile wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
No, because the "other players" happen to be the game writers who are akin to the GM.

Why wouldn't you suppose the writers are RPGing their own characters?

Because they ALL fail the demon's test.  This is the point you are missing.  Isabella and Merrill should have two completely different experiences and instead are the same: "I like big boats/Dalish history, I cannot lie."

To say that it was the GM deciding suggests someone 'assuming control' ... but that isn't right at all. Unless you want to say that failing to resist demons was out of character for the DA2 cast?

I am saying that ALL of them failing is going to be out of character for SOME of them bc/ if everyone failed at the drop of a hat as your companions in Night Terrors, there would be zero mages and a lot more aboninations roaming Thedas.

It renders meaningless Marathari's warning to Hawke to "Choose carefully, for all will face temptation" 

@Ishmaeltheforesaken - exactly.  Merrill's will save is at least a +18 modifier! 

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 avril 2011 - 06:36 .

[IanPolaris]

Joy Divison wrote...

I am saying that ALL of them failing is going to be out of character for SOME of them bc/ if everyone failed at the drop of a hat as your companions in Night Terrors, there would be zero mages and a lot more aboninations roaming Thedas.

Indeed, the entire DA2 game is using a rhetorical technique which is called "viewing with alarm" to try to convince us that magic and demons really are useful extremely dangerous, when a bit of common sense needs to be applied.  If possession were as common and easy as DA2 is implying then there would be no civilizations, and be no Thedas.  All mages would be abominations virtually from the time they could dream and we know that simply is not so...not even in Kirkwall (a Hellmouth).

It's bad writing to try to sell a point that can't be justified by the actual lore.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 22 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[DemonLord4lf]

IanPolaris wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

I am saying that ALL of them failing is going to be out of character for SOME of them bc/ if everyone failed at the drop of a hat as your companions in Night Terrors, there would be zero mages and a lot more aboninations roaming Thedas.

Indeed, the entire DA2 game is using a rhetorical technique which is called "viewing with alarm" to try to convince us that magic and demons really are useful extremely dangerous, when a bit of common sense needs to be applied.  If possession were as common and easy as DA2 is implying then there would be no civilizations, and be no Thedas.  All mages would be abominations virtually from the time they could dream and we know that simply is not so...not even in Kirkwall (a Hellmouth).

It's bad writing to try to sell a point that can't be justified by the actual lore.

-Polaris

Polaris, the man who hates Bioware's writing team

[IanPolaris]

Related to Merrill and Night Terrors there is one more piece of evidence that either Bioware is trying to force through a stealth ret-con to make possession and abominations more common and dangerous than the lore suggests OR that the Dalish are in fact idiots regarding mage (again contravening all prior lore in this regard).

During Act 3 when Merrill is about to ask the Demon for help with the Mirror, you can ask Merithari if the Dalish have any way to cure an abomination.  She says no.  Even if the demon is driven out the soul is forever and fatally damaged so that death is the only solution.

Ehm....EXCUUSE ME but Mr. Conner Eamon, son of Arl Eamon would beg to differ!  Conner is but one example (Fiona is another in Calling) where an abomination has been successfully cured by killing the demon in the fade with no long term damage to the soul.

Not only that, but apparently this technique while not widely known is at least fairly common lore since Jowan, Morrigan, Wynne, and Irving all know of it.

If it's Merethari being dumb, then maybe the blame for what happens to the clan falls less on Merrill and more on Merethari (which is what I personally think).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Polaris, the man who hates Bioware's writing team

I don't hate Bioware's writing team.  I hate bad writing, and Bioware lately has engaged in some mediocre writing at best.

-Polaris

[DemonLord4lf]

IanPolaris wrote...

Related to Merrill and Night Terrors there is one more piece of evidence that either Bioware is trying to force through a stealth ret-con to make possession and abominations more common and dangerous than the lore suggests OR that the Dalish are in fact idiots regarding mage (again contravening all prior lore in this regard).

During Act 3 when Merrill is about to ask the Demon for help with the Mirror, you can ask Merithari if the Dalish have any way to cure an abomination.  She says no.  Even if the demon is driven out the soul is forever and fatally damaged so that death is the only solution.

Ehm....EXCUUSE ME but Mr. Conner Eamon, son of Arl Eamon would beg to differ!  Conner is but one example (Fiona is another in Calling) where an abomination has been successfully cured by killing the demon in the fade with no long term damage to the soul.

Not only that, but apparently this technique while not widely known is at least fairly common lore since Jowan, Morrigan, Wynne, and Irving all know of it.

If it's Merethari being dumb, then maybe the blame for what happens to the clan falls less on Merrill and more on Merethari (which is what I personally think).

-Polaris

Dont remember any Fiona's >.>, anyways... I believe Merethari was referring to those that have been completely possessed. Conner wasn't completely possessed and therefor the demon could be removed through the fade. However, if the demon has taken full possession of the mage, then i believe what Merethari stated would be true.

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Dont remember any Fiona's >.>, anyways... I believe Merethari was referring to those that have been completely possessed. Conner wasn't completely possessed and therefor the demon could be removed through the fade. However, if the demon has taken full possession of the mage, then i believe what Merethari stated would be true.

She doesn't specify completely possessed.  She says that the only cure for an abomination is death.  We know that isn't true.  It's a plothole (or the keeper is stupid).

-Polaris

[DemonLord4lf]

IanPolaris wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Dont remember any Fiona's >.>, anyways... I believe Merethari was referring to those that have been completely possessed. Conner wasn't completely possessed and therefor the demon could be removed through the fade. However, if the demon has taken full possession of the mage, then i believe what Merethari stated would be true.

She doesn't specify completely possessed.  She says that the only cure for an abomination is death.  We know that isn't true.  It's a plothole (or the keeper is stupid).

-Polaris

I think she was foreshadowing events...

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Dont remember any Fiona's >.>, anyways... I believe Merethari was referring to those that have been completely possessed. Conner wasn't completely possessed and therefor the demon could be removed through the fade. However, if the demon has taken full possession of the mage, then i believe what Merethari stated would be true.

She doesn't specify completely possessed.  She says that the only cure for an abomination is death.  We know that isn't true.  It's a plothole (or the keeper is stupid).

-Polaris

I think she was foreshadowing events...

It's still wrong by the existing game lore.  There had to be a better way to forshadow events than turn the Keeper into an idiot.

-Polaris

[DemonLord4lf]

IanPolaris wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Dont remember any Fiona's >.>, anyways... I believe Merethari was referring to those that have been completely possessed. Conner wasn't completely possessed and therefor the demon could be removed through the fade. However, if the demon has taken full possession of the mage, then i believe what Merethari stated would be true.

She doesn't specify completely possessed.  She says that the only cure for an abomination is death.  We know that isn't true.  It's a plothole (or the keeper is stupid).

-Polaris

I think she was foreshadowing events...

It's still wrong by the existing game lore.  There had to be a better way to forshadow events than turn the Keeper into an idiot.

-Polaris

You say she's an idiot, i say she was being realistic. In Thedas, most possessed mages would be killed on site. I believe she was trying to teach Merril this lesson and foreshadow the event.

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...
You say she's an idiot, i say she was being realistic. In Thedas, most possessed mages would be killed on site. I believe she was trying to teach Merril this lesson and foreshadow the event.

The question was, "Do the Dalish have a way to cure an abomination."

Given what we know about Conner (and Fiona) and that Morrigan was aware of the ritual (coming from the Flemeth/Chasind tradition), Wynne was aware of it, Irivng was not only aware of it but knew the ritual and had detailed knowledge, and Jowan (an ex-circle apprentice) was not only aware of it, but knew the blood-magic version of the same ritual, we are drawn to one of two conclusions:

1.  The Keeper didn't know.  Since she should have known, that makes her an idiot.
2.  The Keeper did know but lied, but that also makes her an idiot since Merrill is at least as skilled in magical lore as any of the above (save  perhaps Irving) and would know this for a lie when she heard it.

-POlaris

[TobiTobsen]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Polaris, the man who hates Bioware's writing team

I'm pretty sure that Polaris is possessed by a spirit of justice who transformed into vengeance and is now leading a campaign against the BioWare writing team, because they enslave, oppress and mistreat the plot! The BSN is his manifesto!

(Just joking Ian. No offense meant. )

IanPolaris wrote...

She doesn't specify completely possessed. She says that the only cure for an abomination is death. We know that isn't true. It's a plothole (or the keeper is stupid).

-Polaris

What kind of possession is the keeper anyway? A normal "possess the body from the fade" style possession or more like Anders? The demon was bound to the statue wasn't he? Like Justice to Kristoffs body, or more like the possessed trees?