184 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

TobiTobsen wrote...

What kind of possession is the keeper anyway? A normal "possess the body from the fade" style possession or more like Anders? The demon was bound to the statue wasn't he? Like Justice to Kristoffs body, or more like the possessed trees?

Actually the Keeper herself tells us before we have to kill her.  It's an Anders type possession.  That's because this demon was trapped in the idol and completely cut off from the fade.  As Merethari explains, she can't kill the demon in the fade (because it's not there), and she can't banish it without making it stronger (establisning it's own domain in the fade and it's own under-demons).  Setting it free in our world is clearly a non-option as well.....so she tries to trap and control it in her own body long enough for someone else to kill her.

Sounds very much like an Anders-like situation to me.

Of course it was completely unneecessary.  Merrill had taken precautions.  If the Demon had used the mirror to possess Merrill, Hawke and Co could and would have killed her at her own request much like they did with Merethari.

-Polaris

[DemonLord4lf]

Yes, but Merethari didn't want that to happen to Merril. She did it out of the kindness of her heart.

[mesmerizedish]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Yes, but Merethari didn't want that to happen to Merril. She did it out of the kindness of her heart.

Or, she did it because she was willing to get herself killed to prove that she was right. Because she's a prideful idiot.

[Tigerman123]

IanPolaris wrote...

Of course it was completely unneecessary.  Merrill had taken precautions.  If the Demon had used the mirror to possess Merrill, Hawke and Co could and would have killed her at her own request much like they did with Merethari.

-Polaris

She took precautions against being possessed on Sundermount, not against the demon manifesting in the Alienage via the mirror, which was the Demon's little trick

[mesmerizedish]

Tigerman123 wrote...

She took precautions against being possessed on Sundermount, not against the demon manifesting in the Alienage via the mirror, which was the Demon's little trick

According to Marethari, who was possessed at the time. When all I have to go on is the word of an abomination, I'm likely to be less than trusting.

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Yes, but Merethari didn't want that to happen to Merril. She did it out of the kindness of her heart.

She did this without asking Merrill if that's what she wanted.  She did this without considering the welfare of her own clan (as her own chief hunter correctly criticizes her for if you get the clan not to attack), and in short she showed an appalling lack of trust and faith in her own apprentice.

Merrill knew the risks and possible price, and Merethari know that as well.  Let Merrill pay for it if she must...and it wasn't an absolute given that Merrill would have been possessed!  That was an assumption that Merethari made.

-Polaris

[DemonLord4lf]

No Merethari understood that the pride demon was only after a way into the mortal realm. It was her way of showing Merril that you can't make rash decisions.

[IanPolaris]

Tigerman123 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Of course it was completely unneecessary.  Merrill had taken precautions.  If the Demon had used the mirror to possess Merrill, Hawke and Co could and would have killed her at her own request much like they did with Merethari.

-Polaris

She took precautions against being possessed on Sundermount, not against the demon manifesting in the Alienage via the mirror, which was the Demon's little trick

Not only is the source of the into suspect (an admitted Pride Abomination), but we don't know that Merrill would not have taken precautions before trying to use the mirror.  Given that she was so careful with everything else including having Hawke act as executioner if need be, I find it difficult to believe she wouldn't at least allow for this possibility as well.

In fact I know she does.....it's why she flat out refuses to move the Mirror into Hawke's estate.  She will not (even unintentionally) endanger the life of the man she loves. 

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

No Merethari understood that the pride demon was only after a way into the mortal realm. It was her way of showing Merril that you can't make rash decisions.

You don't know that.   Even if Merethari believed that to be true, it's highly plausible (at least to me) that the Pride Demon was using Merethari's feelings as a tool to escape from it's prison into our world by lying to the Keeper to get just this result (make the Keeper an Abomination).  It's the sort of tricky "lie" think that Pride Demons seem to be really good at.

-Polaris

[mesmerizedish]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

No Merethari understood that the pride demon was only after a way into the mortal realm. It was her way of showing Merril that you can't make rash decisions.

I'd ask you to explain how anything Merrill decided was "rash," but I don't really care.

Marethari never talked to the demon. Marethari never tried to understand Merrill's side of the argument. Marethari just went and said "I think I'm going to either get myself killed or kill Merrill and all her friends" to prove a point.

What's more, the only thing to support her point is her own statement made post-possession.

There's no way to make Marethari look good.

[DemonLord4lf]

What your all failing to understand is that in Thedas, possessed mages are generally killed. I believe that was what Marethari was trying to show Merril.

[IanPolaris]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

What your all failing to understand is that in Thedas, possessed mages are generally killed. I believe that was what Marethari was trying to show Merril.

That wasn't the question asked though.  No matter how you slice it, Marethari looks either stupid, ignorant, or willfully devious and prideful to the point of endangering her own clan just to justify her own fears and prove herself right.

-Polaris

[Tigerman123]

IanPolaris wrote...


Not only is the source of the into suspect (an admitted Pride Abomination), but we don't know that Merrill would not have taken precautions before trying to use the mirror.  Given that she was so careful with everything else including having Hawke act as executioner if need be, I find it difficult to believe she wouldn't at least allow for this possibility as well.

In fact I know she does.....it's why she flat out refuses to move the Mirror into Hawke's estate.  She will not (even unintentionally) endanger the life of the man she loves. 

-Polaris

If Marethari wasn't in control to some extent why would she have emphasised the need for her own death, after all, if you fail to heed her warning Merril is stabbed and the Demon returns, I doubt it would volunteer that piece of information.

Merrill tries to awaken the mirror by herself continuously through out the story, no, you never stop hearing about how it won't work.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Marethari sacrificed herself, so that the Pride demon would not take Merrill. That is the long and short of it. Marethari knew that the Pride Demon would decieve Merrill, she wouldn't allow that.

[mesmerizedish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Marethari sacrificed herself, so that the Pride demon would not take Merrill. That is the long and short of it. Marethari knew that the Pride Demon would decieve Merrill, she wouldn't allow that.

You know who else knew the pride demon would deceive Merrill? Merrill did

Whereas Marethari was herself deceived by the pride demon, but apparently she didn't consider that possibility. Maybe she was blinded by... her own pride?

Oh snap!

[In Exile]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Anders, because he's already an abomination and literally can't be messed with further, Merrill because she's established as being one who knows how to handle demons, and Aveline because she's "incorruptible."

But Anders can't be messed with. He becomes Justice in the Fade.

You're wrong about Merril, though. The whole point to her story is that she doesn't know how to handle demons; she just thinks she does (because she's arrogant).

And I don't know why you think Aveline can't be corrupted. Once again, it's an issue of not being offered the right thing.

I'm not saying that Merrill or Aveline are actually immune to possession or demonic influence. I'm saying that for the sake of a "failsafe" if will saving throws are required, they're the ones for whom an auto-pass makes sense.

Anders does have an auto-pass, as you put it. But it doesn't make sense for Aveline or Merril.

[In Exile]

Nameless2345 wrote...
Making ALL companions succumb to demons in like 3 seconds contradicts DA:O and common sense (how the hell naive young mages survive Harrowings at all, without any anti-demon training, when a group of adults lose instantly? How does Feyrniel, with probably less training than Merrill, resists for days?). Also, H.'s immunity is absolutely unexplained. Unlike other characters, he is merely tempted - no attempt was made to dominate his/her mind. DA:O Warden at least received the same treatment as others.   

Showing that the demons/magic are dangerous? Please, the whole game does and overdoes this.  

But in DA:O the Harrowing is something totally different.

It isn't about making deals with demons - it's about being outright and out and out posssed. The demons aren't trying to posses the DA2 posse - they're just offering them **** they want in exchange for giving them Feynriel.

It's exactly like what the Desire demon does to the Warden in DA:O.

Because they ALL fail the
demon's test.  This is the point you are missing.  Isabella and Merrill
should have two completely different experiences and instead are the
same: "I like big boats/Dalish history, I cannot lie."

Different experiences =! refusing temptation.

Why shouldn't Merril make a deal with a demon for the sake of Dalish history when her whole plot is that she made deals with a demon for Dalish hisory?

I am saying that ALL of them failing is going to be out of character
for SOME of them bc/ if everyone failed at the drop of a hat as your
companions in Night Terrors, there would be zero mages and a lot more
aboninations roaming Thedas.

Well, for one, there are. At least in Kirkwall. Look at Sebastian. Or Tarhone. Two, then you don't understand what the difference between being an abomination and getting something from a  demon. Did the Mage Warden become an abomination when you do the exact same thing and let a demon do whatever she wants in exchange for letting a  young mage become an abomination?

It renders meaningless Marathari's
warning to Hawke to "Choose carefully, for all will face temptation" 

@Ishmaeltheforesaken
- exactly.  Merrill's will save is at least a +18 modifier! 

Again, Merrill is the one that already made deals with demons!

At least arguing for Aveline makes some sense because she uncovered corruption one time. But saying the person who made deals with demons wouldn't make deals with demons is way too much.

If you, for whatever reason,f or Marathari's warning to make sense to you, companions shouldn't betray you, then take Anders along. Justice doesn't betray you.

At any rate, it doesn't, because all did face temptation. They just gave in.

[mesmerizedish]

In Exile wrote...

But Anders can't be messed with. He becomes Justice in the Fade.

That's what I said.

You're wrong about Merril, though. The whole point to her story is that she doesn't know how to handle demons; she just thinks she does (because she's arrogant).

And I don't know why you think Aveline can't be corrupted. Once again, it's an issue of not being offered the right thing.

The only evidence we have for either of the above is the fact that both turn on you in this quest. I'm saying that under different gameplay circumstances, it should be different, and you're saying I'm wrong because under these gameplay circumstances, it is how it is.

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
Ehm....EXCUUSE ME but Mr. Conner Eamon, son of Arl Eamon would beg to differ!  Conner is but one example (Fiona is another in Calling) where an abomination has been successfully cured by killing the demon in the fade with no long term damage to the soul.
-Polaris

I haven't read the book, but you're wrong about Conner. He could be saved only because he didn't become an abomination.

The desire demon existed within the Fade and had not yet fused with Conner. This is exactly why Conner could be saved.

Let go of your mage fetish for a second, please.

[In Exile]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
That's what I said.

No, you said he shouldn't be.

The only evidence we have for either of the above is the fact that both turn on you in this quest.

Did you not play Merril's companion quest or something? Because for like, the third time, she totally makes deals with demons and gives in to temptations.

I'm saying that under different gameplay circumstances, it should be different, and you're saying I'm wrong because under these gameplay circumstances, it is how it is.

I'm saying there's something all these characters want and they'll give up some random schmoe (i.e. Feynriel) to do it.

There's no gameplay circumstance being appealed to at all; there's the character's personality, which is immutable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Marethari sacrificed herself, so that the Pride demon would not take Merrill. That is the long and short of it. Marethari knew that the Pride Demon would decieve Merrill, she wouldn't allow that.

You know who else knew the pride demon would deceive Merrill? Merrill did

Whereas Marethari was herself deceived by the pride demon, but apparently she didn't consider that possibility. Maybe she was blinded by... her own pride?

Oh snap!

Merrill knew that too, yes. And was willing to die because of it. Marethari was not willing to let Merrill die, therefore she sacrificed herself instead. It really is no more complicated than that.

[mesmerizedish]

In Exile wrote...

Did you not play Merril's companion quest or something? Because for like, the third time, she totally makes deals with demons and gives in to temptations.

What temptations has she given in to? Because, apart from Night Terrors, she's dealt with demons more skillfully than I dealt with the Arishok.

I'm saying there's something all these characters want and they'll give up some random schmoe (i.e. Feynriel) to do it.

There's no gameplay circumstance being appealed to at all; there's the character's personality, which is immutable.

That they're suddenly willing to sacrifice an innocent to get whatever is out-of-character for them. They should have a chance to resist the demon, just as the PC should have a chance to fail. That neither is the case is a gameplay circumstance.

[In Exile]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
What temptations has she given in to? Because, apart from Night Terrors, she's dealt with demons more skillfully than I dealt with the Arishok.

Abandoning her clan, learning bloodmagic to clean the Eluvian, doing it all on the word of a demon and her unshakable belief the Eluvian wasn't corrupted by nature, all that jazz?

Learning bloodmagic because the keeper told her ''no'' is giving in to temptation.

That they're suddenly willing to sacrifice an innocent to get whatever is out-of-character for them. They should have a chance to resist the demon, just as the PC should have a chance to fail. That neither is the case is a gameplay circumstance.

The PC does have a chance to fail. Like I already said, Topor temps you. So you're wrong about the PC not being able to fail. You can fail. Fenryeil becomes an abomination. The other demons don't tempt you; they attack you.

Also, bring Aveline and Isabella with you along with Anders. Only one companion will betray you (pride doesn't get Aveline; only desire does).

As for being out of character... Fenris kills mages left and right (and he's ready to murder his sister), Isabella was arguably happy to screw over everyone with the tome and only comes back for Hawke (not Feynriel) and her quest even ends with her making a deal with Castillon for her ship, Merril was perfectly happy to abandon her clan (damn the consequences!), and Sebastian was roaring for an Exalted March at one point (he doesn't come along).

Aveline and Varric are the only ones you can make a case that they'd value life for its own sake, and there isn't any evidence either should be particularly resistant to temptation.

[mesmerizedish]

The PC does not have a chance to fail. Accepting Torpor's deal is no failing. It's making a choice. Failing would mean having the choice made for you.

I'm not interested in Fenris or Isabela. I'm only defending the characters of Aveline and Merrill. Both are good people who are very much against sacrificing others. Both are very strong people as well.

Aveline routinely does what's right regardless of anyone else (she butts heads with the Viscount quite a bit).

Merrill has dealt successfully with a demon. She's been trained to do so.

Again, I'm not saying they should get an auto-pass just because. I'm saying that if auto-passes are required to make sure the game doesn't end, then they're the ones for whom it makes sense.

The thing is, none of the companions are ever given a chance to resist the demon, and that's poor gameplay.

[EDIT] And why do you think Varric should value life for its own sake? He's perfectly willing to kill his brother, or Gascard.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 22 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[Joy Divison]

[quote]In Exile wrote...


Different experiences =! refusing temptation.[/quote]

Different experience, different motivations, different willpower, i.e. different people do = some refusing temptation.

You have yet to give a reasonable explanation why Hawke is the only non-abomination in Thedas who can resist the temptation of a demon[/quote]

[quote]
Why shouldn't Merril make a deal with a demon for the sake of Dalish history when her whole plot is that she made deals with a demon for Dalish hisory?[/quote]

Because I, unlike you apparently, do not think lazy and simplisitc writing is good writing.  You will accept and argue that everyone getting automatically possessed by a demon with but a sentence of temptation is good, riviting stuff worthy of praise, but I expect more devotion to a character's insights, motivations, experiences, and consistency.

Merrill, who is TRAINED to understand demons, takes CAUTION in her dealings with demons to repair the MIRROR which she THINKS will HELP restore Dalish history.  That's quite different from naively believing with a wave of a hand a demon can just instantly grant everything she wants.  If she was so susceptible before, in her multiple dealings with demons, she would have already been possessed!  There is a complete lack of consistency w/ her experience with the Pride Demon in Night Tremors.  She should have reacted in a similar way that way Morrigan did in Origins with the complete lack of subtlety in the Pride Demon's offer.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 22 avril 2011 - 01:55 .