184 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

The problem is the writers/devs clearly wanted to impress on us how dangerous demons were in the fade, but the fact that Hawke *always* resists temptation and the NPCs *always* fail ruins it. It's not a case of showing the strength of demons but showing the strength of Bioware plot contrivance. Even in the case of the Sloth demon where it could mess up NPC perceptions and such, you could (with varying difficulty) help your NPC companions break the spell...and some saw right through it (Morrigan, Sten, Niall).

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Isn't Sebastian immune to temptation in the Fade?

[L33TDAWG]

He doesn't even go into the Fade.

[TEWR]

that's if he's in your immediate party when Marethari's coming down the steps isn't it? He refuses then. But if he's outside of the party, what then?

edit: because the DA2 strategy guide says Sebastian can go into the fade and is immune to temptation.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[L33TDAWG]

Rifneno wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Naw, she's just dumb.

This.  Merrill makes Sandal look like Mordin.

Although, Sandal is actually extremely aware of what is really going on because of his text saying,"all magic will return." Afterwards, the other dwarf, whose name I forget right now, asked what he was talking about, to which he  said, "Er... Enchantment!" Sandal is smart!

[L33TDAWG]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

that's if he's in your immediate party when Marethari's coming down the steps isn't it? He refuses then. But if he's outside of the party, what then?

edit: because the DA2 strategy guide says Sebastian can go into the fade and is immune to temptation.

If he can't go in, then he's immune. He also refuses the desire demon's temptational offer on his personal mission.

Modifié par L33TDAWG, 24 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[TEWR]

L33TDAWG wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

that's if he's in your immediate party when Marethari's coming down the steps isn't it? He refuses then. But if he's outside of the party, what then?

edit: because the DA2 strategy guide says Sebastian can go into the fade and is immune to temptation.

If he can't go in, then he's immune. He also refuses the desire demon's temptational offer on his personal mission.

I think you misunderstood.

Suppose you have a party consisting of Warrior Hawke, Merrill, Varric, and Anders and tell Arianni you're ready. Marethari then comes down and later on tells you to pick your party. Sebastian is out of the party. Can't you take him in there by substituting Varric for Sebastian?

Because the DA2 guide says he's immune and useful on harder difficulties because of that.

[Xilizhra]

No, Sebastian can never show up in the Fade. It'd just be a retread of what Allure says except he'd succumb.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 avril 2011 - 06:03 .

[TEWR]

so the guide makers lied? what a bunch of douches....

[jlb524]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is the writers/devs clearly wanted to impress on us how dangerous demons were in the fade, but the fact that Hawke *always* resists temptation and the NPCs *always* fail ruins it. It's not a case of showing the strength of demons but showing the strength of Bioware plot contrivance. Even in the case of the Sloth demon where it could mess up NPC perceptions and such, you could (with varying difficulty) help your NPC companions break the spell...and some saw right through it (Morrigan, Sten, Niall).

-Polaris

To be honest, I wish there was a test in the Fade for Hawke (beyond Torpor) that s/he could fail.  I guess the only limitation to implemeting something like this is that Hawke is a creation of the player so each Hawke's weaknesses/desires are different.  There are other limitations as well.  Hawke is ultimately being controlled by us and if most players metagame the Fade section they won't fall for any of the demon's tricks.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed; that's why the sloth demon's prison for the Warden is so generic and ultimately useless. But in this case, the demons were pissed at Hawke and wanted her dead, not enthralled.

[White_Buffalo94]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

I think she's an idiot to be honest. I try to go with her, she said it was probably a bad idea to let the sloth demon posses the boy, and then she gets upset...

She wants you to outsmart the sloth demon perhaps?

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is the writers/devs clearly wanted to impress on us how dangerous demons were in the fade, but the fact that Hawke *always* resists temptation and the NPCs *always* fail ruins it. It's not a case of showing the strength of demons but showing the strength of Bioware plot contrivance. Even in the case of the Sloth demon where it could mess up NPC perceptions and such, you could (with varying difficulty) help your NPC companions break the spell...and some saw right through it (Morrigan, Sten, Niall).

-Polaris

Hawke isn't immune to temptation. He is tempted by Topor and can give in, depending on player choice. The other demons do not try to tempt Hawke, since they want him to die, for foiling their attempts at tempting Feynriel.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is the writers/devs clearly wanted to impress on us how dangerous demons were in the fade, but the fact that Hawke *always* resists temptation and the NPCs *always* fail ruins it. It's not a case of showing the strength of demons but showing the strength of Bioware plot contrivance. Even in the case of the Sloth demon where it could mess up NPC perceptions and such, you could (with varying difficulty) help your NPC companions break the spell...and some saw right through it (Morrigan, Sten, Niall).

-Polaris

Hawke isn't immune to temptation. He is tempted by Topor and can give in, depending on player choice. The other demons do not try to tempt Hawke, since they want him to die, for foiling their attempts at tempting Feynriel.

*sigh* Point.  Missing it.  Hawke IS immune from tempatation.  At no time is Hawke ever convinced/persuaded/seduced to do somthing he or she normally would not do.  Yes you can take Torpor's offer, but that is entirely up to you.  By contrast your companions (except Anders) always fail temptation if they are targeted at all. ALWAYS.  There is no conversation option(s), no friendship/rivalry status, nothing that changes that regardless of what they feel towards you.

This isn't showing how dangerous demons are.  It's simply hamfisted writing to drive home a particular plot no matter what and thus doesn't really show anything.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is the writers/devs clearly wanted to impress on us how dangerous demons were in the fade, but the fact that Hawke *always* resists temptation and the NPCs *always* fail ruins it. It's not a case of showing the strength of demons but showing the strength of Bioware plot contrivance. Even in the case of the Sloth demon where it could mess up NPC perceptions and such, you could (with varying difficulty) help your NPC companions break the spell...and some saw right through it (Morrigan, Sten, Niall).

-Polaris

Hawke isn't immune to temptation. He is tempted by Topor and can give in, depending on player choice. The other demons do not try to tempt Hawke, since they want him to die, for foiling their attempts at tempting Feynriel.

*sigh* Point.  Missing it.  Hawke IS immune from tempatation.  At no time is Hawke ever convinced/persuaded/seduced to do somthing he or she normally would not do.  Yes you can take Torpor's offer, but that is entirely up to you.  By contrast your companions (except Anders) always fail temptation if they are targeted at all. ALWAYS.  There is no conversation option(s), no friendship/rivalry status, nothing that changes that regardless of what they feel towards you.

This isn't showing how dangerous demons are.  It's simply hamfisted writing to drive home a particular plot no matter what and thus doesn't really show anything.

-Polaris

So Hawke normally goes into the Fade and makes random deals with dangerous spirits, not caring that they'll destroy the world when they're set loose? Or just makes deals with dangerous spirits in general?

Hawke is making a deal with a demon for personal gain, for power. He is tempted by the thought of having more power. Hawke is far from immune, should you accept the deal.

And technically some companions can be immune to temptation I guess. Take Merrill and Varric to the Pride demon and he'll only offer a deal to one of them. The other gets nothing.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So Hawke normally goes into the Fade and makes random deals with dangerous spirits, not caring that they'll destroy the world when they're set loose? Or just makes deals with dangerous spirits in general?

Either Hawke would normally sell out his friends and family for personal gain or he would not.  There is nothing Torpor does that changes this.  The CHOICE is entirely in Hawke's hands which means this isn't tempatation.  It's a simple above board offer.

Hawke is making a deal with a demon for personal gain, for power. He is tempted by the thought of having more power. Hawke is far from immune, should you accept the deal.

Yes he is.  Hawke at no time is compelled to do anything.  The deal is aboveboard and straightforward.  You take it or you don't.  There is no coercion either way.

And technically some companions can be immune to temptation I guess. Take Merrill and Varric to the Pride demon and he'll only offer a deal to one of them. The other gets nothing.

No.  It means that the Pride Demon can only tempt one at a time.  That's the deal.  The NPCs are given NO option to resist and there is NO option for Hawke to change the nature of wither your NPCs resist or fail which makes Merethari's statement about 'pick your companions wisely' to be nothing but a joke in the worst taste.  If the demon tempts the NPCs, the NPC fails.  No roll, nothing. 

That isn't showing how dangerous demons are.  That is showing just how bad Bioware is at storytelling.

-Polaris

[Johnny20]

As much as I like Merrill, she is extremely naive, and a very poor Mage.

[IanPolaris]

Johnny20 wrote...

As much as I like Merrill, she is extremely naive, and a very poor Mage.

Um, what game did you play?  Merrill is only naive about human society.  I agree that Bioware pulls out all the stops to make her look stupid (probably to discredit much of what she says which is the straight goods), but she's not.

In terms of magic and magical lore, Merrill probably knows more about the Fade and Magic esp Bloodmagic than any other mage out there, Mage-Hawke included.

In terms of her tactical effectiveness as a mage, Merrill is easily, hands down, the best mage since you can get her into bloodmagic right away and you DON'T need to waste points in Willpower.  The reason she was denied the creation (healing) tree is because with it, Merrill is too (broken) good!'

-Polaris

[Johnny20]

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny20 wrote...

As much as I like Merrill, she is extremely naive, and a very poor Mage.

Um, what game did you play?  Merrill is only naive about human society.  I agree that Bioware pulls out all the stops to make her look stupid (probably to discredit much of what she says which is the straight goods), but she's not.

In terms of magic and magical lore, Merrill probably knows more about the Fade and Magic esp Bloodmagic than any other mage out there, Mage-Hawke included.

In terms of her tactical effectiveness as a mage, Merrill is easily, hands down, the best mage since you can get her into bloodmagic right away and you DON'T need to waste points in Willpower.  The reason she was denied the creation (healing) tree is because with it, Merrill is too (broken) good!'

-Polaris

You misunderstand. Merrill is indeed knowledgeable about the arcane, however, she still makes silly mistakes and stupid decisions due to her thinking she knows it all and thus is naive.

Basically put, she ignores what she knows and goes ahead with a plan anyway, usually with disastrous results. Due to her naivety (stupidity, even), her keeper was slain. She also turned her back on you in the Fade, accepting a deal from a demon.

She can be very foolish. A *poor* mage.

And by "poor" mage, I meant as in you wouldn't want her teaching your mage child. You wouldn't want Merrill as a role model. She thinks bargaining with demons is just, and blood magic is too.

Her abilities as a mage, however, are fine. She is strong in that regard.

Modifié par Johnny20, 25 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[IanPolaris]

Merrill shows more good sense then the rest of her clan combined, keeper included. All her decisions were knowledgable ones made with full appreciation of the risks involved. The problem was a criminal lack of faith in her by her own keeper.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  There is no intrinsic reason why bloodmagic is bad (dangerous yes but not evil).  Also Anders is wrong.  You can sometimes bargin with a spirit or demon and come out ahead.  The Warden in DAO does (he does NOT have to sell Conner's soul to get rewarded by the Desire demon).  It's just very, very hard and not something you should try trivially.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[TEWR]

Johnny20 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny20 wrote...

As much as I like Merrill, she is extremely naive, and a very poor Mage.

Um, what game did you play?  Merrill is only naive about human society.  I agree that Bioware pulls out all the stops to make her look stupid (probably to discredit much of what she says which is the straight goods), but she's not.

In terms of magic and magical lore, Merrill probably knows more about the Fade and Magic esp Bloodmagic than any other mage out there, Mage-Hawke included.

In terms of her tactical effectiveness as a mage, Merrill is easily, hands down, the best mage since you can get her into bloodmagic right away and you DON'T need to waste points in Willpower.  The reason she was denied the creation (healing) tree is because with it, Merrill is too (broken) good!'

-Polaris

You misunderstand. Merrill is indeed knowledgeable about the arcane, however, she still makes silly mistakes and stupid decisions due to her thinking she knows it all and thus is naive.

Basically put, she ignores what she knows and goes ahead with a plan anyway, usually with disastrous results. Due to her naivety (stupidity, even), her keeper was slain. She also turned her back on you in the Fade, accepting a deal from a demon.

She can be very foolish. A *poor* mage.

And by "poor" mage, I meant as in you wouldn't want her teaching your mage child. You wouldn't want Merrill as a role model. She thinks bargaining with demons is just, and blood magic is too.

Her abilities as a mage, however, are fine. She is strong in that regard.

No Marethari was the stupid one. Merrill was seeking advice from a spirit that was trapped for all eternity by ancient magic. There was no danger. Even so, Merrill still wanted to be careful by asking Hawke to accompany her. That doesn't seem like someone who is stupid.

Marethari repeatedly said she didn't want anything to do with the Eluvian, yet she acted like she knew more about it than Merrill did. Who studied the Eluvian? Merrill. Who rebuilt it using only a shard of the original and whatever lore she could find? Merrill.

Who said that the demon would use the Eluvian to escape its' prison? Marethari. Wait what? Marethari? The woman who knows nothing about the Eluvian is claiming something as fact? There's something wrong there, especially when Morrigan has told us the Eluvian links to a place beyond the mortal world and beyond the Fade.

Merrill isn't stupid. Naive yes, but only when it comes to humans as they are a people she has very rarely and very briefly encountered.

There is nothing inherently evil about blood magic. It is a tool like anything else (Hell I wonder if it could be used medicinally to manipulate the blood flow for someone who had an artery cut). People who abuse its' powers are evil, but that doesn't mean the magic itself is evil.

I would let her teach my child how to use magic safely. She even knows how to protect herself in the Fade. You can't believe anything other than yourself. The only reason she "betrays" you is because the Pride demon did what the demons in the Fade in Broken Circle did to your companions. She didn't betray you. She was forced to. She even says so afterwards.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[LobselVith8]

Johnny20 wrote...

She can be very foolish. A *poor* Mage.

You mean when she rebuilds a two thousand year old elven device that the Magisters were ignorant about? Or when she is able to verify that a templar recruit isn't possessed? Or when she is able to discern that a Hunger Demon has possessed one of the Profane? I don't see how she is a foolish mage simply because you disagree with her.

Grey Wardens have no prohibition against blood magic. Your two examples are one quest that railroads all the characters into an act of attempted murder that contradicts what we have seen in Origins and Awakening, and the other is Marethari accepting a demon into her body of her own volition. So far, I don't see any legitimate reasons to call Merrill a poor mage when she calls Anders out for not realizing that all spirits are dangerous.

[Johnny20]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Johnny20 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Johnny20 wrote...

As much as I like Merrill, she is extremely naive, and a very poor Mage.

Um, what game did you play?  Merrill is only naive about human society.  I agree that Bioware pulls out all the stops to make her look stupid (probably to discredit much of what she says which is the straight goods), but she's not.

In terms of magic and magical lore, Merrill probably knows more about the Fade and Magic esp Bloodmagic than any other mage out there, Mage-Hawke included.

In terms of her tactical effectiveness as a mage, Merrill is easily, hands down, the best mage since you can get her into bloodmagic right away and you DON'T need to waste points in Willpower.  The reason she was denied the creation (healing) tree is because with it, Merrill is too (broken) good!'

-Polaris

You misunderstand. Merrill is indeed knowledgeable about the arcane, however, she still makes silly mistakes and stupid decisions due to her thinking she knows it all and thus is naive.

Basically put, she ignores what she knows and goes ahead with a plan anyway, usually with disastrous results. Due to her naivety (stupidity, even), her keeper was slain. She also turned her back on you in the Fade, accepting a deal from a demon.

She can be very foolish. A *poor* mage.

And by "poor" mage, I meant as in you wouldn't want her teaching your mage child. You wouldn't want Merrill as a role model. She thinks bargaining with demons is just, and blood magic is too.

Her abilities as a mage, however, are fine. She is strong in that regard.

No Marethari was the stupid one. Merrill was seeking advice from a spirit that was trapped for all eternity by ancient magic. There was no danger. Even so, Merrill still wanted to be careful by asking Hawke to accompany her. That doesn't seem like someone who is stupid.

And yet it all went downhill anyway, the demon free, the Keeper dead. Only a fool would conspire with a demon.

[Johnny20]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Johnny20 wrote...

She can be very foolish. A *poor* Mage.

You mean when she rebuilds a two thousand year old elven device that the Magisters were ignorant about? Or when she is able to verify that a templar recruit isn't possessed? Or when she is able to discern that a Hunger Demon has possessed one of the Profane? I don't see how she is a foolish mage simply because you disagree with her.

Grey Wardens have no prohibition against blood magic. Your two examples are one quest that railroads all the characters into an act of attempted murder that contradicts what we have seen in Origins and Awakening, and the other is Marethari accepting a demon into her body of her own volition. So far, I don't see any legitimate reasons to call Merrill a poor mage when she calls Anders out for not realizing that all spirits are dangerous.

I said she was intelligent, yet made foolish decisions. Read my previous replies. Anyone who says she didn't make stupid decisions are wrong, quote frankly.

Modifié par Johnny20, 25 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[LobselVith8]

Johnny20 wrote...

And yet it all went downhill anyway, the demon free, the Keeper dead. Only a fool would conspire with a demon.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't find your opinion very compelling, particularly when Merrill is taking a gambit that could lead to a renaissance for the People.

You keep providing your opinion as though it was the basis for indisputable facts. Nothing you've said so far supports your claims that Merrill is a poor mage or made foolish decisions. Merrill demonstrates an understanding of magic that more than a few have argued to be one of the best among all of the companions.