318 réponses à ce sujet

[The dead fish]

@Klarabella : Sexuality is not static, attraction for a gender can disappear or appear. This is not the past which make we are bisexual. If you do not feel attraction to the same sex any more, you're not bisexual any more.

The most important thing in what I am saying is that I want to see a character that has developed a very clear manner with its history, attractions, consistently, to be completely transformed, at the silly expense of his personality, consistency of his character, merely to satisfy some fans angry.

Then maybe you feel a little better sad to see this kind of silly thing that happen, from one episode to another.

I want to see if you have always the same reaction to a reverse situation, I dislike hypocrisy.

But forget, I expressed just one wish, move on.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 21 avril 2011 - 03:28 .

[0o-Constance-o0]

You know, I started reading the first few pages, stopped as the argument dissolved into yet ANOTHER argument about "Ander's was totally stright-" "No he was not OMFG he's totally gay" which soon became "You have no idea what sexuality is about and I'm gay and blah blah blah blah"

Personally, I don't agree with the OP. I like both Anders, I understand that when posessed by Justice the spirit (and as pointed out in Gaider's posts and writing, spirits MELD with the person, Demons simply take over) that Anders changed drastically in personality.

The voice actor change doesn't bother me in the slightest. The fact that he is not bisexual means nothing to me.

I find his character interesting for all it's flaws and hang-ups as I do with the majority of characters in Dragon age.

The timeline however IS something I can't quite get a grasp of BUT I know somehwere on the forum there is an official one. Any ideas where it is, to clarify?

[Maren03]

Sabariel wrote...

As for why Anders accepted Justice's help...because he changed his mind? People do that, you know. Justice and Anders have many talks about mages and freedom. Perhaps Anders thought it over and decided that maybe Justice had a point.

I have a couple issues with that. First of all, Justice convincing Anders to rebel against the Circle and Chantry made about as much sense as him convincing someone like Wynne or Fenris. In Awakenings Anders specifically expressed he beleived there was a need for the Circle, and was ironically disturbed at the prospect of all mages being free without it because of the chaos it would bring to them. The Circle educated mages and taught them how to use their powers and protect themselves. Anders himself, provided the vigil stayed even left the Wardens for awhile to GO BACK to there circle and teach (further implying he was support for its existence). Justice never offered alternatives to Anders' opinions, and was having a hard enough time understanding the new world around him. Anders on the other hand knew first hand the oppression that went on from the very beginning. he'd experienced it first hand, and had it worse than a lot of the other mages because of his constant escape attempts, yet still defended the Circle. Freeing the mages would have not only been difficult, but might have been more trouble than it was worth without the Circle to help them (and Templars chasing them down with the Right of Annulment), and he expressed this position throughout various parts of Awakenings (and DA2) when asked about it. Justice never managed to convince him throughout the game or even after it when Anders could've willingly returned to the Circle temporarily in an imported ending, so its hard to beleive that he'd suddenly change his mind about it now -- especially not for the reasons Anders gave as an explanation in-game. It never even bothered Anders that the Circle existed so much that the Chantry kept them survellianced and weren't offering ways for mages to prove themselves when they successfully mastered their skills.

senorfuzzylips wrote

Anders: Sometimes, I think you have the right idea.
Isabela: Handcuffs, whipped cream, always be on top?
Anders: I never used to give two bits what anyone thought of me.
Anders: Justice once asked me why I didn't do more for other mages. I told him it was too much work.
Anders: But I couldn't go back after that. Couldn't stop thinking about it.
Anders: Sometimes, I miss being that selfish.

Again, this ignores the fact, he actively defended the Circle and (in one of the endings transferred from awakenings) even supported it. He knew what it offered to mages and didn't approve of the Chaos that would ensue from removing it. It might have been something to think about, but the reservations he had that prevented him from acting upon this were not resolved in Awakening, and he even mentions to Bethany that the Circle was the only way for mages to be formally educated, further widening the plothole gap because it implied he and Justice NEVER found a solution to this.

0o-Constance-o0


Personally, I don't agree with the OP. I like both Anders, I understand that when posessed by Justice the spirit (and as pointed out in Gaider's posts and writing, spirits MELD with the person, Demons simply take over) that Anders changed drastically in personality.

Please read the following story from the aformentioned link: http://social.biowar...0/index/6997022

If you read the story, you'll find that Hepler wrote Anders OOC BEFORE this had even happened, so its not even an arguement. Its seems like Bioware was just using Justice as an excuse to explain how the new writer warped and changed his character without trying to do much work to transition it for fans. Even if his stance had changed, after all he endured already, what sense did it make for him to change completely?

Part of my problem with this is that they tried making an entirely new character out of an old one and it didn't fly. Regardless of the whole sexuality nonsense, the fact of the matter is, people bought the game expecting to see Anders, he and Justice are two distinct personalities, yet he acts almost nothing like the character people were fans of to begin with. Almost everything that defined his personality to the viewer got stripped away, which was something I'd found hard to beleive since he'd endured so much as a mage with it already, anyway.

Modifié par Maren03, 21 avril 2011 - 08:54 .

[Maren03]

Accidental double post. Disregard.

Modifié par Maren03, 21 avril 2011 - 08:33 .

[Deified Data]

All of these "mischaracterizations" can be explained by Anders being a manipulative hypocrite.

[MikoDoll]

Not to mention that the demon that possessed Connor was still in the Fade. Since it was still in the Fade, that's what made it possible to save Connor. 

Read Hepler's story on Anders and Justice merging. I believe it did in fact, happen in the fade. Justice also has a direct connection to the Fade which was able to temporarily bring Karl back.

David Gaider has already clearly explained that spirit merging and demonic possession are two different things. Justice and Anders did in fact merge Viyu. 

Problem with that is again, the two personalities remain to be very distinct. They are not the same. Why does justice need to pop out, with Anders going as far as losing consciousness if this is a spiritual posession where the personalities merge? It looks more characteristic of a demonic poession where in which the body contains two personalities from within it. The demon also within Connor was also aware of what he was doing even when Connor was conscious.

They are two beings inhabiting the same body, the same mind. Justice's thoughts are Anders' thoughts.

Taking the rivalry path, you can find that Anders' thoughts/opinions are not one with Justice and Justice would do things to people Anders wouldn't do. Heck even if you persue a friendly romance, Anders notes that Justice disaproves of it. Which is...interesting since he wanted for himself what Kristoff and Aura had (and would've had it too if he and Anders were the same person). A demon can also know what a person is doing or thinking without being the conscious personality either. So the only way "merge" could characterize the two in a way that didn't reflect a demonic possession was if in fact they were of completely one personality. Such is not the case though. Not only do their characters not merge, but Anders explains to that Justice was tainted upon the act being done. He describes it as Vengeance, but vengeance was something Justice had been going on about before he'd merged with Anders. The likely basis would therefore be Justice had been tainted before merging with Anders, but Anders himself didn't know this and blamed himself when he'd felt the taint. Justice shows all the characteristics of a Demonic poession. He manipulates Anders' emotions when he is angry like Gaider mentioned a demon would, Anders and Justice have distinct personalities, and when Justice is enthused enough, he'll even take Anders' ability to remain conscious.

This is vastly different from Connor, where the demon and Connor were two separate entities.

Except Justice and Anders are two separate entities, read above.

Connor is also unable to remember details isn't he?

 Anders is in the same boat if you say, convince him not to blow up the Chantry and Justice comes out.  Also understand the demon says they will allow Connor dominance for many years before assuming control again. demons can remain the inactive personality and assume dominance at will, just as Justice had.

It doesn't matter that Justice turned into Vengeance later on, as the spirit merging had already been followed through on.

Except Justice was going on about exacting vengeance in Awakening before they'd have been able to merge.

And incidentally, vengeance is just the darker side of justice. There is a grey and very thin line between Justice and Vengeance. Both are forms of justice.

Vengeance is the the preocupation with injuring/harming another party in reaction to being wronged/angered. This is essentially wrath. Justice doesn't necessarily require this. Justice without wrath, is the preocupation with helping undo damage caused by a person being wronged. If for example someone stole from me a rare locket, Justice, without inflicting physical injury could be for instance getting it back or having the person who stole it or to pay monetary damages. It does not react inherently with blood lust.

Personally, I don't agree with the OP. I like both Anders, I
understand that when posessed by Justice the spirit (and as pointed out
in Gaider's posts and writing, spirits MELD with the person, Demons
simply take over) that Anders changed drastically in personality.

It's not really an issue of whether or not I could like this personality or not. If this were a separate character entirely, it'd be very interesting indeed. I think what's problematic for some, is how much they had to warp Anders to make a circle peg fit into a square.

The voice actor change doesn't bother me in the slightest. The fact that he is not bisexual means nothing to me.

 VAs and all that are secondary issues. I will say however it'd have been weird for his previous VA to play a more dark and brooding character like the one in DA2. But then, I'm not sure I see the basis for making him that way coherent. Not going into the bisexual bit because Hawke would probably change many people's sexualities so I don't care what he could have been restricted to in Awakening before they met.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 21 avril 2011 - 09:57 .

[Maren03]

Deified Data wrote...

All of these "mischaracterizations" can be explained by Anders being a manipulative hypocrite.

What reason would he have to do that, though? His actions in Awakening supported his beleifs, so its not as simple as brushing them off as him being a manipulative hypocrite.

Canonically, I'd probably chalk a lot of the loopy writing up in part to Varric. He DID mention that he'd make up the things he wasn't told, and lets be honest. He's not going to know every detail about Hawke and Anders or their relationship to a tee; especially if he wasn't there to witness certain things that went on between them in private. That goes for Hawk and most of his/her companions. And like I said before, the Circles are all being trashed. Provided he lived he and both he and Justice completed their objectives, AND with a potential lover Hawke at his side, I don't see why he wouldn't lighten back up a bit anyway.

MikoDoll wrote...
into the bisexual bit because Hawke would probably change many people's sexualities ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png so I don't care what he could have been restricted to in Awakening before they met.

I sort of agree, I think Hawke should've been his first love as a male. It could've added a lot more depth and variety to the Hawke/Anders relationship, not to mention more it would've been a lot more rewarding if the player had to work harder at it and see Anders' transition in coming to terms with his feelings for him. Not getting into whether I think bi-Anders is a plothole or not, but that I would've liked to have seen it played from that perspective.

Modifié par Maren03, 21 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[TEWR]

Read Hepler's story on Anders and Justice merging. I believe it did in fact, happen in the fade. Justice also has a direct connection to the Fade which was able to temporarily bring Karl back.

I did. 8 times. Nowhere does it say that the merging happened in the fade.

Taking the rivalry path, you can find that Anders' thoughts/opinions are not one with Justice and Justice would do things to people Anders wouldn't do. Heck even if you persue a friendly romance, Anders notes that Justice disaproves of it. Which is...interesting since he wanted for himself what Kristoff and Aura had (and would've had it too if he and Anders were the same person). A demon can also know what a person is doing or thinking without being the conscious personality either. So the only way "merge" could characterize the two in a way that didn't reflect a demonic possession was if in fact they were of completely one personality. Such is not the case though. Not only do their characters not merge, but Anders explains to that Justice was tainted upon the act being done. He describes it as Vengeance, but vengeance was something Justice had been going on about before he'd merged with Anders. The likely basis would therefore be Justice had been tainted before merging with Anders, but Anders himself didn't know this and blamed himself when he'd felt the taint. Justice shows all the characteristics of a Demonic poession. He manipulates Anders' emotions when he is angry like Gaider mentioned a demon would, Anders and Justice have distinct personalities, and when Justice is enthused enough, he'll even take Anders' ability to remain conscious.

You ever consider that Rivalry isn't proof that they are two separate entities, but that it's Anders fighting back to make one entity two separate ones again? Don't you remember how Anders said Justice's thoughts are his thoughts? That doesn't mean they are two separate entities. I'm rusty on my psychological knowledge, but there's a disorder that causes people to have two different personalities isn't there? Does that mean they are two separate entities? No. And no I'm not saying Anders has this disorder, I'm trying to prove a point.

Except Justice and Anders are two separate entities, read above.

Except I have given a counterargument to that. See above.

Anders is in the same boat if you say, convince him not to blow up the Chantry and Justice comes out.  Also understand the demon says they will allow Connor dominance for many years before assuming control again. demons can remain the inactive personality and assume dominance at will, just as Justice had.

Again, see above how Rivalry isn't indicative of two separate entities, but one entity fighting to split back into two separate ones.

Except Justice was going on about exacting vengeance in Awakening before they'd have been able to merge.

I don't remember that. Please provide evidence and I will respond accordingly.

Vengeance is the the preocupation with injuring/harming another party in reaction to being wronged/angered. This is essentially wrath. Justice doesn't necessarily require this. Justice without wrath, is the preocupation with helping undo damage caused by a person being wronged. If for example someone stole from me a rare locket, Justice, without inflicting physical injury could be for instance getting it back or having the person who stole it or to pay monetary damages. It does not react inherently with blood lust.

I have already gotten into one debate on how Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin, with one side's shade of the coin being darker. I do not want to do it again, so I will look for the thread where the first debate happened and quote it at some point later today.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[DeaHamlet]

I'm ignoring the last page for a second because I wanted to say this...

If suddenly Isabella is lesbian or hetero, I won't cry over my milk or anything. I won't care one bit.
If Zevran decides to be gay or hetero in the next game, no issue whatsoever for me.
Same with Leliana.

People change. Sexuality can change, I don't see the big deal. People can even still be attracted to both sexes but decide they don't ever want to be with one of the gender because of things that happened.
I don't see what the big deal is. Simple as that.

[JesterPsychotica]

The Angry One wrote...

Viyu wrote...

► The bisexuality angle. It'd be like if someone magically wrote Zevran and Leilianna to be straight. In Awakening Ohgren makes a phallic joke about Templars poking their "swords" at Anders, to which Anders responds
with "Ew."  No connection is made between how Anders could go from seeing homosexuality as "gross", to something that is okay.

I'm sorry. What?
Expressing disgust at one of Oghren's many foul innuendo laden jokes is not the same as being repulsed by homosexuality.

Anders wasn't expressing disgust in homosexuality. He was expressing disgust in Templars.

He goes on in DA2 saying to Aveline, "Are all Templars as dirty as they seem?" in one of the companion conversations. He also tells Sebastian about how he has heard stories about Templars raping mages. He is disgusted by the apparent Templar depravity.

• Sebastian: You seem very angry.
• Anders: And here I thought the Chantry was against mind-reading.
• Sebastian: Did something happen to you in the Circle? I understand there were problems in Ferelden...
• Anders: Are you saying a mage can only be unhappy in the Circle if demons were involved?
• Anders: No, it's not about Uldred. It's not about being beaten or raped by a templar— that does happen, but I've been fortunate.
• Anders: It' s a larger principle: the freedom every man, woman, and child born in Thedas have as a natural right.
• Sebastian: You were given to the Circle. I was given to the Chantry. Hawke was driven away from home by the Darkspawn.
• Sebastian: None of us are free.

Modifié par JesterPsychotica, 21 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[MikoDoll]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Read Hepler's story on Anders and Justice merging. I believe it did in fact, happen in the fade. Justice also has a direct connection to the Fade which was able to temporarily bring Karl back.

I did. 8 times. Nowhere does it say that the merging happened in the fade. 

It's implied it does.

1. Karl mentions that the Fade itself is within Anders. Justice carries the Fade. It is part of him and this is why Karl was temporarily able to counteract being made tranquil.

2. The opening of the story where Anders is in the Fade before  he comes to in the "real world" on the second page also shows the transaction happened in the Fade.

You ever consider that Rivalry isn't proof that they are two separate entities, but that it's Anders fighting back to make one entity two separate ones again?

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant by "Rivalry." If you take the Rivalry path with Hawke it is very clear that they aren't the same by the end, with Justice stripping Anders of consciousness to talk to Hawke, and disagreeing with Anders' desires to step down from blowing up the Chantry. There's also that bit about the fact Justice wanted to kill the mage girl, and Anders is very torn up about what Justice could have done to her (depending on which option you choose). Even if you save her, he's still upset over it.

Don't you remember how Anders said Justice's thoughts are his thoughts? That doesn't mean they are two separate entities.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they're the same entities, either. A demon can know the thoughts of their host for instance. That doesn't mean that they are one.

I'm rusty on my psychological knowledge, but there's a disorder that causes people to have two different personalities isn't there? Does that mean they are two separate entities? No.

Hardly a great analogy. The alter is created by the host often times often to suit their needs to cope with specific events they're not ready to deal with. Anders' situation is the result not of his own personally creating another personaltiy to cope with the world, but willingly allowing another individual to inhabit his body. These two individuals can distinctly be noticed as well. Many people with Dissaosciative personality were thought to actually be in posession of demons in the past actually, but nothing could be further from the truth. Disassociative personality is the result of a person making another personality they will use to protect themselves. A demon is well... I already went over it. At times it is so clear they are distinct that one consciousness loses consciousness in the process.

Again, see above how Rivalry isn't indicative of two separate entities, but one entity fighting to split back into two separate ones.

There's no motivation for an entity who is whole to do something like that because their identity or "them" requires the merging to exist. There are problems between the two, because they have never been one personality. It has always been for Anders an issue of Justice showing up and controlling his body. He knows what Justice thinks, but it's not the same as them being one personality.

Except Justice was going on about exacting vengeance in Awakening before they'd have been able to merge.

I don't remember that. Please provide evidence and I will respond accordingly.

• (When entering the Wending Wood, upon seeing the wreaked caravan) "These people must be avenged."

• (At buriel pit in the Wending Wood) "They are human,
  and probably from a settlement near here. No doubt they were sent to
  get rid of whatever is in the woods. I swear, I will avenge their
  deaths."

Kristoff's Chest, behind Justice

• Leave those alone. They’re not yours. (-2)
• That’s a little creepy, isn’t it?
• You can feel it? (+3)
  
• Can you tell anything from these “fingerprints?”
• When you die, there’s nothing left at all?
• Isn’t that a little distracting?
  
• You want vengeance?
  
• If we can avenge him, we will. (+3) (ends conversation)

[/list][/list]


He also makes a deal with Aura to avenge Kristoff. pretty much the last bit above goes into that (I think).

I have already gotten into one debate on how Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin, with one side's shade of the coin being darker. I do not want to do it again, so I will look for the thread where the first debate happened and quote it at some point later today.

Can't wait, thanks for chatting with me 

Modifié par MikoDoll, 21 avril 2011 - 11:59 .

[Maren03]

You guys do realize the issue of his sexuality is no longer on the OP for discussion because:

1) Viyu admitted already he could've grown to feel for Hawke regardless of Karl or anyone else, and

2) The subjective nature of this has been dragged on for too long.

I'm almost sorry I opened my big mouth and added to this part of the discussion. If you want to debate about his sexuality further fine, but please make another topic about it, guys. There are a lot more imortant plotholes and character inconsistencies towards the actual character to talk about than simply whether or not Anders preffers sausages or clams.

Modifié par Maren03, 21 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[TEWR]

It's implied it does.

1. Karl mentions that the Fade itself is within Anders. Justice carries the Fade. It is part of him and this is why Karl was temporarily able to counteract being made tranquil.

2. The opening of the story where Anders is in the Fade before he comes to in the "real world" on the second page also shows the transaction happened in the Fade.

Implied? No. Implied also doesn't mean that's what happened. So nope. Justice is a spirit of the Fade. He is the Fade, but he was pulled out from it. He is walking the mortal world as a living portable Fade. This doesn't mean he's still a part of the Fade.

Also, Anders is a mage. When he's unconscious, he goes to the Fade. That's what all mages do. That doesn't mean he merged with Justice in the Fade.

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant by "Rivalry." If you take the Rivalry path with Hawke it is very clear that they aren't the same by the end, with Justice stripping Anders of consciousness to talk to Hawke, and disagreeing with Anders' desires to step down from blowing up the Chantry. There's also that bit about the fact Justice wanted to kill the mage girl, and Anders is very torn up about what Justice could have done to her (depending on which option you choose). Even if you save her, he's still upset over it.

No I understood you. That proved my point, what you just said. I'm saying that maybe through Rivalry you're pushing Anders to start to fight back against the merging. This ends up causing one entity to become two again, and unfortunately makes Justice the stronger being. Rivalry pushes them to be two split entities, whereas Friendship helps them live as one being.

I guess really, neither you or I are right. Maybe when we meet Anders he's neither one entity or even two. It's what we do that pushes him to one side. Rivalry = 2. Friendship = 1. First meeting = 1.5? =P

also all those quotes kinda prove the idea of Justice and Vengeance being two sides of the same coin. Avenging Kristoff is seeking justice.

And I just got home, so check back here on this thread to see when I put that first debate up. Hopefully sometime tomorrow it'll be here.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2011 - 03:20 .

[Viyu]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's implied it does.

1. Karl mentions that the Fade itself is within Anders. Justice carries the Fade. It is part of him and this is why Karl was temporarily able to counteract being made tranquil.

2. The opening of the story where Anders is in the Fade before he comes to in the "real world" on the second page also shows the transaction happened in the Fade.

Implied? No. Implied also doesn't mean that's what happened. So nope. Justice is a spirit of the Fade. He is the Fade, but he was pulled out from it. He is walking the mortal world as a living portable Fade. This doesn't mean he's still a part of the Fade.

Also, Anders is a mage. When he's unconscious, he goes to the Fade. That's what all mages do. That doesn't mean he merged with Justice in the Fade.

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant by "Rivalry." If you take the Rivalry path with Hawke it is very clear that they aren't the same by the end, with Justice stripping Anders of consciousness to talk to Hawke, and disagreeing with Anders' desires to step down from blowing up the Chantry. There's also that bit about the fact Justice wanted to kill the mage girl, and Anders is very torn up about what Justice could have done to her (depending on which option you choose). Even if you save her, he's still upset over it.

No I understood you. That proved my point, what you just said. I'm saying that maybe through Rivalry you're pushing Anders to start to fight back against the merging. This ends up causing one entity to become two again, and unfortunately makes Justice the stronger being. Rivalry pushes them to be two split entities, whereas Friendship helps them live as one being.

I guess really, neither you or I are right. Maybe when we meet Anders he's neither one entity or even two. It's what we do that pushes him to one side. Rivalry = 2. Friendship = 1. First meeting = 1.5? =P

also all those quotes kinda prove the idea of Justice and Vengeance being two sides of the same coin. Avenging Kristoff is seeking justice.

And I just got home, so check back here on this thread to see when I put that first debate up. Hopefully sometime tomorrow it'll be here.

But how can you fight back against merging? If you're merged you shouldn't be aware that your thoughts are any different from the other person's in the first place for you to be considering "fighting" what you should percieve to be your own thoughts. And I don't mean fighting your own thoughts as an internal personal conflict, I mean "fighting" your own thoughts in the sense you are consciously aware that someone is thinking thoughts other than your own. I think the thing is that placing the responsibility on Justice and not himself should indicate a merging did not happen to begin with. I don't think you are making sense if he's unconscious his mind goes to the fade yet the transaction didn't happen in the fade...what?

Let's take the first paragraph of the short story. It's pretty obvious that this takes place in the fade


The light here isn't right. It's too yellow. Too harsh. And it all comes from above. For a moment, I'm not sure why that seems wrong. The sun… that's always been there, right? What am I remembering?

The word comes back to me. The Fade. I am a mage. I've spent time in the place I remember. It is a land of mist, of dreams. And I'm right; the light there is different, emanating from the ground, the walls, not a single pinpoint source. But I've never been more than a visitor there. Why does it suddenly feel like home?

Modifié par Viyu, 22 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[Viyu]

Rifneno wrote...


Did he ever say he felt the Chantry was necessary?  I took what he said as meaning that trying to split from the Chantry would cause open war and it simply wasn't worth it.  But he'd only seen the Ferelden Chantry.  After 7 years of seeing the downright evil the Chantry turns a blind eye to in Kirkwall, he probably changed his mind.  I know I did.  And I didn't have to put up with them for the better part of a decade after they stole my lover's soul for writing a ****ing letter.

I believe I made a typo. I meant he thought the CIRCLE was neccessary and that it had purpose in Awakening. But the problem is the fact he holds the perspective that the circle must be challenged while he was with the Wardens, prior to abandoning them for Kirkwall, but he also held the perspective that it was necessary in Awakening, when he was with the Wardens. Now all of a sudden that changes for no apparent reason. In the short story Anders says...

"Now, even that thought repulses me. Why should so many others live with what I will not? Why must the Circle of Magi stand? Just because it always has, just because those who read Andraste's words twisted them to mean that mages must be prisoners?"

But he thought that the circle was necessary when he was with the Wardens in Awakening. So why the sudden change? What occurred to make him feel differently? This isn't explained.

Modifié par Viyu, 22 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[Viyu]

AlexXIV wrote...

First off, changing mood is not changing character. Or 'mischaracterisation'. Anders always had problems with the way mages were treated. By the Chantry and the Templars. He knew that mages are dangerous but he never said that he was ok with what the Chantry and Templars are doing. Yes he has become more moody and brooding. But that's what can happen if you go through alot of **** in life. People get less happy and more brooding.

But he was NEVER ok with Chantry oversight in the Circle yet he's brooding before he leaves for Kirkwall, and the reasons for the brooding don't seem to reflect any change from the norm of his life experiences prior to posession with Justice. Why is he suddenly willing to apply himself  to this cause when he wasn't willing to die for it before? Challenging the Circle creates a huge possibility of him dying. And to him, death was a weakness. So why the change in perspective?

  AlexXIV wrote...

Also two factors. Justice and Darkspawn corruption. Anders not only foolishly joined with a spirit from the fade, he is also a Grey Warden, which means being corrupted by the taint and having nightmares, etc. That's pretty much a combination that could almost explain anything and everything.

No it isn't. You can get nightmares but that does not explain the abrupt personality change. If you go through the joining you don't lose your sanity like a ghoul.

Modifié par Viyu, 22 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[MikoDoll]

Implied? No.Implied also doesn't mean that's what happened. 

I'm saying implied because I leave the door open for you to note something I have not considered. Karl was tranquil. Being tranquil occurs when a person is cut off from the fade. However he got his connection to the Fade because Justice harbors it. Unless you have something else to add, it pretty much shows that Justice carries the fade and that it lives within Anders.

So nope. Justice is a spirit of the Fade. He is the Fade, but he was pulled out from it. He is walking the mortal world as a living portable Fade. This doesn't mean he's still a part of the Fade. 

Yes it would. A portable fishtank, is still a fishtank.  If he is the fade, he cannot be pulled from it.

Also, Anders is a mage. When he's unconscious, he goes to the Fade. That's what all mages do. That doesn't mean he merged with Justice in the Fade.

I'll just wait for you to respond to the other response provided to you on that one.

And I just got home, so check back here on this thread to see when I put that first debate up. Hopefully sometime tomorrow it'll be here.

Have a nice day 

[Viyu]

Sylvianus wrote...

@Klarabella : Sexuality is not static, attraction for a gender can disappear or appear. This is not the past which make we are bisexual. If you do not feel attraction to the same sex any more, you're not bisexual any more.

The most important thing in what I am saying is that I want to see a character that has developed a very clear manner with its history, attractions, consistently, to be completely transformed, at the silly expense of his personality, consistency of his character, merely to satisfy some fans angry.

Then maybe you feel a little better sad to see this kind of silly thing that happen, from one episode to another.

I want to see if you have always the same reaction to a reverse situation, I dislike hypocrisy.

But forget, I expressed just one wish, move on.

I think that's how I felt about it Sylvianus, I just wasn't all that skillful at saying it and goofed. But I really don't want this thread to derail again. But perhaps I should make a thread about it. Would people like to discuss it? I can certainly make another thread for it if people would like to continue this discussion elsewhere because people can't seem to stop bringing it up here.

Modifié par Viyu, 22 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[Plaintiff]

I don't see any real conflict between Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders. The timeline is fuzzy to say the least, but it's obvious that some time has passed between the two games and a lot of **** has happened to him. Personality isn't static, it evolves. I am not the same person I was last year, experiences are constantly reshaping us.

I don't consider Anders "OOC" at all. He has a whole other sentient being living inside him. There is no real-world equivalent for that situation whatsoever so it's totally up to Jennifer Hepler to interpret how that alters his character, whether the change is dramatic or subtle, whether he is resistant or glad of the changes to his personality. Gaider obviously didn't have any complaints, and if the videogame writing process is at all similar to screenwriting, she would've met frequently with the other writers and they would have offered feedback and ultimately they would all have to agree with the direction she took the character in. If there is some sort of crime to be answered for, you'd have to call them all out. She didn't do it on her own.

As for their failure to account for different endings that people got, well, retcons happen. The Dragon Age franchise is still very young, there are bound to be hiccups. This is not the only issue that has arisen. As harsh as it may sound, I really wish people would get over the fact that Bioware didn't account for the fact that some people decided to kill off every possible party member. Establishing canon > unrealistic player expectations.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 avril 2011 - 03:42 .

[TEWR]

I don't think you are making sense if he's unconscious his mind goes to the fade yet the transaction didn't happen in the fade...what?

Let's take the first paragraph of the short story. It's pretty obvious that this takes place in the fade


The light here isn't right. It's too yellow. Too harsh. And it all comes from above. For a moment, I'm not sure why that seems wrong. The sun… that's always been there, right? What am I remembering?

The word comes back to me. The Fade. I am a mage. I've spent time in the place I remember. It is a land of mist, of dreams. And I'm right; the light there is different, emanating from the ground, the walls, not a single pinpoint source. But I've never been more than a visitor there. Why does it suddenly feel like home?

Any time a mage is unconscious (sleep, a bonk on the head, what have you) they travel to the Fade. This is the case for all mages. This is proof that saying the merging definitely happened in the Fade is wrong. Saying so is tantamount to speculation

Justice makes it known in Awakening he was pulled from the Fade entirely. He could leave Kristoff if he wanted, but he can't return to the Fade.

as an added note: When you take Anders into Feynriel's mind in the Fade, Justice says "I hadn't thought to return in such a way". This shows that he never once returned to the Fade, and the merging never happened in the Fade. Because Justice was never once back in the Fade

No it isn't. You can get nightmares but that does not explain the abrupt personality change. If you go through the joining you don't lose your sanity like a ghoul.

No a Grey Warden will eventually lose their sanity. Look at Commander Asturian. The Grey Wardens at that time noticed how his mind was beginning to deteriorate, and his sanity with it.

But how can you fight back against merging? If you're merged you shouldn't be aware that your thoughts are any different from the other person's in the first place for you to be considering "fighting" what you should percieve to be your own thoughts. And I don't mean fighting your own thoughts as an internal personal conflict, I mean "fighting" your own thoughts in the sense you are consciously aware that someone is thinking thoughts other than your own. I think the thing is that placing the responsibility on Justice and not himself should indicate a merging did not happen to begin with. I don't think you are making sense if he's unconscious his mind goes to the fade yet the transaction didn't happen in the fade...what?

How do you know its impossible for a mage to fight back against merging? That's basically what you're saying, that it's impossible for it to happen in a different world which exists in a different universe and has a different set of rules that exist.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[TEWR]

MikoDoll wrote...

And I just got home, so check back here on this thread to see when I put that first debate up. Hopefully sometime tomorrow it'll be here.

Have a nice day 

couldn't find the first debate, so let's just start from scratch.

[Viyu]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't see any real conflict between Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders. The timeline is fuzzy to say the least, but it's obvious that some time has passed between the two games and a lot of **** has happened to him. Personality isn't static, it evolves. I am not the same person I was last year, experiences are constantly reshaping us.

Nobody said anything about personalities remaining static. But just because someone can magically write a character to go though hard times does not mean it's believable writing. In Anders' case, it's not believable because he believed the circle had a purpose, and should not be destroyed.He believed that death was a weakness and was not willing to die for the cause of freeing mages. Now all of a sudden he does not feel that way, for no explained reason. Even though party banter implies Justice's prodding caused him to feel inable to ignore the plight of mages, that doesn't tell us HOW he obtained courage, and the willingness to die. Justice had been prodding him throughout Awakening and he did no seem to budge from an apathetic stance on the matter. So what situation DID convince him to do so? Secondly, Anders' party banter fails to tell us HOW he suddenly thought the circle needed to be destroyed all of a sudden. These are huge plotholes.

I don't consider Anders "OOC" at all. He has a whole other sentient being living inside him.

That's no excuse. The the fact he ALLOWED himself to get posessed in the first place hardly makes sense because the writers totally ignored all the obstacles the previous character would have had into changing into this new character.

so it's totally up to Jennifer Hepler to interpret how that alters his character, whether the change is dramatic or subtle, whether he is resistant or glad of the changes to his personality. Gaider obviously didn't have any complaints, and if the videogame writing process is at all similar to screenwriting, she would've met frequently with the other writers and they would have offered feedback and ultimately they would all have to agree with the direction she took the character in. If there is some sort of crime to be answered for, you'd have to call them all out. She didn't do it on her own.

Writers make mistakes, it happens all the time because people are not perfect. Just because Hepler and Gaider agreed with Anders' direction does not mean that they properly explained the change in a way that makes sense to the viewers.

As for their failure to account for different endings that people got, well, retcons happen. The Dragon Age franchise is still very young, there are bound to be hiccups. This is not the only issue that has arisen. As harsh as it may sound, I really wish people would get over the fact that Bioware didn't account for the fact that some people decided to kill off every possible party member. Establishing canon > unrealistic player expectations.

Actually it was VERY possible that they could've satisfied all the endings for Anders and Justice. I go over this in the review thread. They just chose not to, either because they thought it wasn't possible or didn't care, but that does not change the fact fans have a right to feel rightfully cheated. And more importantly, it implies that each installment is a oneshot like the Legend of Zelda. That doesn't really make the game all that unique and competitive from other titles out there. The fact that all your decisions matter throughout each installment is something that makes BioWare stand out as a company.

Modifié par Viyu, 22 avril 2011 - 11:49 .

[Viyu]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


No a Grey Warden will eventually lose their sanity. Look at Commander Asturian. The Grey Wardens at that time noticed how his mind was beginning to deteriorate, and his sanity with it.

Yes but that's after like, 30 years. Anders was a Warden for merely a year.

How do you know its impossible for a mage to fight back against merging? That's basically what you're saying, that it's impossible for it to happen in a different world which exists in a different universe and has a different set of rules that exist.

Anders said he didn't know where his mind and Justice's began or ended. So how do you know what to fight against if your mind is melded with another person's thoughts?

Modifié par Viyu, 22 avril 2011 - 11:54 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

Maybe he said Circle is necessary in DAA, but don't forget he escaped the Circle many times before DAA started.

What you "suppose to be right" isn't always what you really feel.

[Viyu]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Maybe he said Circle is necessary in DAA, but don't forget he escaped the Circle many times before DAA started.

What you "suppose to be right" isn't always what you really feel.

Yes so WHY is he suddenly changing his opinion in DA2 in spite of having the opinon the circle was necessary despite escaping the circle 7 times in Awakening? The issue is that he did not have a problem with the Circle so long as the templars weren't after him in particular. Why did that change?