318 réponses à ce sujet

[Purposeof-Flight]

Viyu wrote...

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Maybe he said Circle is necessary in DAA, but don't forget he escaped the Circle many times before DAA started.

What you "suppose to be right" isn't always what you really feel.

Yes so WHY is he suddenly changing his opinion in DA2 in spite of having the opinon the circle was necessary despite escaping the circle 7 times in Awakening? The issue is that he did not have a problem with the Circle so long as the templars weren't after him in particular. Why did that change?

Um. I thought this was already explained.
Justice. Justice convinced him that he should be taking up arms in favor of mage rights, instead of being so "selfish".
I'm sure the death of Karl, and the craziness of the situation in Kirkwall only further reinforced that.

[Plaintiff]

Viyu wrote...

Nobody said anything about personalities remaining static. But just because someone can magically write a character to go though hard times does not mean it's believable writing. In Anders' case, it's not believable because he believed the circle had a purpose, and should not be destroyed.He believed that death was a weakness and was not willing to die for the cause of freeing mages. Now all of a sudden he does not feel that way, for no explained reason. Even though party banter implies Justice's prodding caused him to feel inable to ignore the plight of mages, that doesn't tell us HOW he obtained courage, and the willingness to die. Justice had been prodding him throughout Awakening and he did no seem to budge from an apathetic stance on the matter. So what situation DID convince him to do so? Secondly, Anders' party banter fails to tell us HOW he suddenly thought the circle needed to be destroyed all of a sudden. These are huge plotholes.

Huge? Hardly. Anders reasons are his own and he's not obliged to share them. They could feasibly be filled in but I personally don't think it's necessary and I doubt that there is any explanation that would satisfy those who dislike the change regardless. In any case, Anders never states that the Circle has to be destroyed, he says that conflict must be forced if there is to be change. His issue is not with the Circle, but how it is run and who it is run by. The Circle does not oppress mages, the Chantry and its templars do, and they are his targets.

Anders is not given anything like enough depth in Awakening for us to be making judgement calls about what he would or would not do. We only see one side of him: a jokester, an attention seeker, the class clown. Who is to say that Ander's quips are representative of his true feelings? I would put forth the interpretation that he is using humour to deflect. For instance, when Nathaniel asks Anders how he keeps getting caught, Anders responds with a joke about female templars. We know from playing Origins that the Circle has phylacteries that they use to track mages, and this in fact comes up later in Awakening anyway. Why not simply tell the truth? His jokes are a defense mechanism to stop people from probing too deeply into subjects he is uncomfortable discussing.

You assume that he doesn't possess courage, I disagree. His admissions of being cowardly and selfish are completely at odds with his actions. Fleeing the Circle is not the action of a coward, joining the Wardens is not the action of a coward and none of the things he does while with the Wardens are cowardly or selfish. You assume that because he puts forth an apathetic stance, he must truly be apathetic to the plight of other mages, but it's clearly on his mind. In his banter with Nathaniel in Awakening, he attempts to provoke sympathy for the mages by comparing their plight with the way Nathaniel suffers under the stigma of the Howe name. That doesn't speak of apathy to me.

That's no excuse. The the fact he ALLOWED himself to get posessed in the first place hardly makes sense because the writers totally ignored all the obstacles the previous character would have had into changing into this new character.

Which are what? That he's apathetic, which he may well not be? That he's cowardly, which he isn't? He says he did it as a favour to a friend, how much more detail do you feel you need?

Writers make mistakes, it happens all the time because people are not perfect. Just because Hepler and Gaider agreed with Anders' direction does not mean that they properly explained the change in a way that makes sense to the viewers.

Why does everything have to be "properly explained"? What would you consider a proper explanation? In DA2 we learn relatively little about the pasts of all the characters. Somewhere in the six months or so between Awakening and when we encounter Anders, he merged with Justice. Not to mention the massive, three-year gaps between acts. He didn't randomly decide to blow **** up for giggles, it's the product of seven years of watching the situation slowly deteriorate.

Actually it was VERY possible that they could've satisfied all the endings for Anders and Justice. I go over this in the review thread. They just chose not to, either because they thought it wasn't possible or didn't care, but that does not change the fact fans have a right to feel rightfully cheated. And more importantly, it implies that each installment is a oneshot like the Legend of Zelda. That doesn't really make the game all that unique and competitive from other titles out there. The fact that all your decisions matter throughout each installment is something that makes BioWare stand out as a company.

I'd love to know how you think they could've reconciled 2 with an Awakening save where Anders and Justice both die. Even if Justice isn't really "dead" being a spirit, and he chooses to inhabit Ander's corpse, no amount of healing magic would keep it from decomposing. Kristoff's body continues to rot while Justice inhabits it, what would be the explanation for Anders being alive and well?

I am not familiar with most of Bioware's past games, but from what I gather, their earlier works like Baldur's Gate series had an established canon and that was that. Having decisions carry over is a fairly recent feature for them and it's clearly not perfected. Either way, a canon of sorts would have to be established sooner or later and some decisions won't carry over as a result. Even if they could've kept it up for another game or two, it couldn't last. It's impossible to write a coherent story in which most of the plot points are completely subjective.

[TEWR]

Viyu wrote...

Yes but that's after like, 30 years. Anders was a Warden for merely a year.

I know. But you had previously said that they don't, so I just wanted to correct that statement.

Anders said he didn't know where his mind and Justice's began or ended. So how do you know what to fight against if your mind is melded with another person's thoughts?

No he said not even the greatest scholar could tell you. He never said he didn't know (whether he does or doesn't isn't really made clear, so it's really a 'believe what you want' for this one). Anders obviously does know what to fight against, which is made evident by pursuing the Rivalry path. Friendship leads Anders to not bother trying and accept his merging.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff, you're my new hero for that well thought out response to Viyu

[LobselVith8]

Viyu wrote...

If you speak to Wynne in Awakening, it is also revealed that while he hates chantry oversight, he believes that the chantry is neccessary and shows concern over mages trying to dissolve the it. He believes that if mages were simply allowed to run amuck it'd be "a recipe for disaster", which is ironically similar to Fenris' opinion.

Anders never says he thinks the Chantry controlled Circles are necessary, he simply says that they can't decide to leave and that it will be a recipe for disaster, which makes sense since Wynne believes the Chantry would rather see the mages killed than free, which she admits if the Warden supports the Libertarians efforts to free all of the Circles of Magi from the Chantry.

Viyu wrote...

Hepler's short story suggests his bitterness was partly due to being ripped apart from his family at  age12. But it was hardly convincing. If that was enough for him to want revolution, he probably wouldn't have been supportive of the circle by the time he was an adult in Awakening.

Anders never says he supports the Circles, and his dialogue indicates that he thinks mages should be free. He even disapproves if the Warden helps the templars. I do agree, though, that Anders didn't want to get involved in helping other mages when Justice brought up the issue, and the Epilogue slides for Awakening seem to suggest that TPTB didn't give Anders role in DA2 much thought at the time.

Viyu wrote...

Other Noteworthy Plotholes:

► Why does Anders constantly condemn Merill for being a blood mage when he can become a blood mage himself in Awakening? Your Warden can actually address his blood mage talents, should he learn the specialization.  

This is an interesting point. Regardless of whether Anders kept to the practice of blood magic or not, a possible friend and confidant who helped him against the templars is a blood mage, aka the Hero of Ferelden.

Viyu wrote...

►If Anders can "die" at the end of Awakening like Nathaniel can point out in DA2, how could the Wardens force him to get rid of Ser-Pounce-A-Lot if they all thought Anders was dead? This seems like a clumsy attempt to get Anders to brood against the Wardens for getting rid of the cat, but without considering certain endings.

I suspect it's in the same vein as wondering how Oghren can have a newborn baby in the span of six months...

Viyu wrote...

► Justice was supposed to serve the order for many years. So how exactly does he posess Anders, leave the Wardens, flee to Kirkwall, and get jiggy with Karl merely a year after the blight? Awakening occurs 2-6 months after it, if I remember correctly. Now I know DA2 is supposed to be based off a possible ending for Anders. But in practice this couldn't have been possible in any of the epilogues. In DA2 Anders implies that Justice is still posessing Kristoff's corpse during the time of posession. But the endings where Justice isn't killed/dies either has him serving the Wardens or fixing up graves in the blackmarsh--but that's provided he's never recruited, and never meets Anders to begin with.

Technically, Awakening takes place six months after the ceremony DA:O, which is said to be a few months after the death of the Archdemon, and DA2 takes place a full year after Lothering is destroyed by the darkspawn. Anders should be in Amaranthine when Hawke finds him in Kirkwall.

[MikoDoll]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't see any real conflict between Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders. The timeline is fuzzy to say the least, but it's obvious that some time has passed between the two games and a lot of **** has happened to him. Personality isn't static, it evolves. I am not the same person I was last year, experiences are constantly reshaping us.

Understandable. However personality is not the sort of thing that just changes for no provided reason, hence where we are now. For example,  let's take Anders' attitude towards the Circle of Magi as demonstrated in the game and in Anders-- short story . Anders in this story wants to see the Circle removed before the merging with Justice. It's actually what helps motivate him to join with Justice. Here's an excerpt:

Why must the Circle of Magi stand? Just because it always has, just because those who read Andraste's words twisted them to mean that mages must be prisoners? Why has there never been a revolution?

If you're a mage, you learn in awakening Anders was part of the Ferelden circle of Magi, he saw what a revolution did (regarding Uldred) and Wynne also discusses the incident with the Warden.  So he has seen a revolution, and that revolution ended badly. Anders' opinion was that pulling away would cause chaos. In addition, there are functions that only the Circle can offer a mage, like how to use their powers. Even in DA2 Anders will discuss with Bethany facts such as these which means he'd came with no alternatives before they'd merged. Now however, he's asking why a revolution was never started, and what purpose does the Circle serve??

I don't consider Anders "OOC" at all. He has a whole other sentient being living inside him.

Which rises quite a few questions. Namely, why he'd be at all motivated to join with Justice, knowing what Justice wanted to do when many of his problems with it weren't resolved. 

Reading the excerpts from the story:

I always knew I wouldn't submit. I could never be what they wanted from me -- compliant, obedient, guilty. But before Justice, I was alone. I never thought beyond my own escape: Where would I hide? How long before they found me?

Now, even that thought repulses me. Why should so many others live with what I will not? Why must the Circle of Magi stand? Just because it always has, just because those who read Andraste's words twisted them to mean that mages must be prisoners? Why has there never been a revolution?

1. There was a revolution (see Uldred's rebellion) and that didn't work out very well. Anders recognizes mage Wardens in Awakening which would show he's from Ferelden's Circle of Magi too. Wynne also discusses the events in Ferelden's Circle. Meaning Anders had to pretty much...survive that entire rebellion and the chaos it caused.

2. Anders was forced into the Circle because he didn't have control of his powers and set his father's barn on fire. He even discusses with Bethany that the Circle is the only place for a mage to recieve education towards their powers in DA2. In one of the Awakening epilouges he even goes back to the Circle to teach the next generation of mages about the Architecht (though it does state he could only tolerate being there for less than 2 months which leaves an ambigious time in which he was there). I don't really buy that he didn't see any need for the Circle.  Templars maybe, but before allowing Justice to inhabit his body he wants both eliminated.

If he were being tempted by a demon I could understand how he'd act that way, though. After all, When trying to rescue Feynriel your companions can behave in ways where they wouldn't outside the Fade when offered temptations and resembled people the would-be host knew.

There is no real-world equivalent for that situation whatsoever so it's totally up to Jennifer Hepler to interpret how that alters his character,whether the change is dramatic or subtle, whether he is resistant or glad of the changes to his personality. 

We do however have Thedan equivalents (like Connor) who made a deal with a demon, and the Justice/Anders relationship seems resembles more of a demonic posession than a spirit posession where it is said that the two personalities actually merge and would therby become one.

Gaider obviously didn't have any complaints, and if the videogame writing process is at all similar to screenwriting, she would've met frequently with the other writers and they would have offered feedback and ultimately they would all have to agree with the direction she took the character in.

Whether or not they agreed doesn't mean plot errors and inconsistencies do not exist which is pretty much all I'm discussing.  Like, saying to Hawke "maybe if we'd met a year ago" in Act 1 when you flirt with him implies he merged with Justice 1 year before he meets Hawke. However 1 year before Act 1 is the prolouge where the blight is still underway and Hawke and his/her family are going to Kirkwall to escape it. So ...Justice met Anders before Awakening and before Kristoff died? 

If there is some sort of crime to be answered for, you'd have to call them all out. She didn't do it on her own.

I'm not at all trying to make this a witchunt for Hepler, nor do I care about "blame" don't misunderstand. Though I will state things such as the story she wrote because I know for a fact she's a name that's came up in terms of being credited for the writing. Simply noting the author sounded a bit more defining than saying Anders--short story but I'll do that more if it helps get the point across.  Frankly, I'd just like to see major plotholes filled. It's not an issue for me simply that that people make mistakes.

As for their failure to account for different endings that people got, well, retcons happen. The Dragon Age franchise is still very young, there are bound to be hiccups. This is not the only issue that has arisen. As harsh as it may sound, I really wish people would get over the fact that Bioware didn't account for the fact that some people decided to kill off every possible party member.

There's a difference between choosing one or two of the endings to be canon, and well... making an ending that couldn't work for any of the epilouges--particularly Justice's. Anders explains that at the time, he'd thought merging with Justice was better than having Justice inhabit Kristoff's corpse. Any endings regarding in Kristoff's body for years then would be canon. However Anders is in Kirkwall no more than one year after the blight emerges.

Therefore, I've considered that either Varric had holes in his story, or the more likely option, that this could mean a demon posed as Justice/Kristoff in the fade and tricked Anders much like how Connor was tricked by the desire Demon.  If Justice in the mortal realm was still inhabiting Kristoff's body, a demon could resemble Kristoff's corpse within the Fade to make Anders feel as though it was Justice whom he'd be helping. Together they could satiate his anger towards injustice towards mages pr desires to see them free. The most likely demons would be wrath or desire. Strong demons, like the ones in Feynriel's deams were capable of influencing their victims' thoughts. But it the idea of him actually merging with Justice in particular doesn't add up to any of Justice's endings. The real Justice should've been with the Wardens or out fighting other injustices in Kristoff's body. Again, Karl noted the spirit within Anders carries the Fade within, and  the first few lines describe the event as having occurred in the short story.

I know this thread is about Anders, but it's like people forgot Justice is also a character, and his timelines and such were also forgotten. Actually an escape to Kirkwall and posession by a powerful demon posing as Justice is probably pretty possible with Anders considering his most if not all his endings. Justice thrown into the equation however complicates things.


Well that was a fun chat, thanks for your time, Hope ta see yas again

Modifié par MikoDoll, 23 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[MikoDoll]

Anders never says he thinks the Chantry controlled Circles are necessary, he simply says that they can't decide to leave and that it will be a recipe for disaster, which makes sense since Wynne believes the Chantry would rather see the mages killed than free, which she admits if the Warden supports the Libertarians efforts to free all of the Circles of Magi from the Chantry.

It was said to be a typo. Anders defended the existence of the Circle in Awakening but now wants to see it gone.

Viyu wrote...

Hepler's short story suggests his bitterness was partly due to being ripped apart from his family at  age12. But it was hardly convincing. If that was enough for him to want revolution, he probably wouldn't have been supportive of the circle by the time he was an adult in Awakening.

Anders never says he supports the Circles, and his dialogue indicates that he thinks mages should be free. 

He says it if you go talk to Wynne about the Libertarians wishing to leave the Circle entirely. Another reason why I can't understand why he thought no one was rebelling? Uldred made an attempts and there were already a faction of mages trying to break away and he called it madness.

I suspect it's in the same vein as wondering how Oghren can have a newborn baby in the span of six months...

LOL. Hey umm was there ever an official time frame for Awakening ever presented? I've been curious about that this entire thread. Also, Dwarves are a fictional race. They don't have to take as long as humans, nor are they as big as humans so wouldn't gestation be shorter for them?

Viyu wrote...

► Justice was supposed to serve the order for many years. So how exactly does he posess Anders, leave the Wardens, flee to Kirkwall, and get jiggy with Karl merely a year after the blight? Awakening occurs 2-6 months after it, if I remember correctly. Now I know DA2 is supposed to be based off a possible ending for Anders. But in practice this couldn't have been possible in any of the epilogues. In DA2 Anders implies that Justice is still posessing Kristoff's corpse during the time of posession. But the endings where Justice isn't killed/dies either has him serving the Wardens or fixing up graves in the blackmarsh--but that's provided he's never recruited, and never meets Anders to begin with.

Technically, Awakening takes place six months after the ceremony DA:O, which is said to be a few months after the death of the Archdemon, and DA2 takes place a full year after Lothering is destroyed by the darkspawn. Anders should be in Amaranthine when Hawke finds him in Kirkwall.

Where is everbody getting their information about the timelines???

[Everwarden]

Exceptionally good post, and honestly not something I had given much thought to. You get +10 internets.

[Deztyn]

Viyu wrote...

That's no excuse. The the fact he ALLOWED himself to get posessed in the first place hardly makes sense because the writers totally ignored all the obstacles the previous character would have had into changing into this new character.

This here is my biggest problem with Anders 2.0.

I can easily accept that much of his personality change is due to inhabiting the same headspace as Justice. But too much offscreen development has to occur in a very short time for the merge to feel like a natural character evolution rather than The Demand of The Plot™.

Modifié par Deztyn, 23 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[TEWR]

Whether or not they agreed doesn't mean plot errors and inconsistencies do not exist which is pretty much all I'm discussing. Like, saying to Hawke "maybe if we'd met a year ago" in Act 1 when you flirt with him implies he merged with Justice 1 year before he meets Hawke. However 1 year before Act 1 is the prolouge where the blight is still underway and Hawke and his/her family are going to Kirkwall to escape it. So ...Justice met Anders before Awakening and before Kristoff died?

No, saying "maybe if we met one year ago" is not saying Anders merged with Justice one year prior to that line. It's saying he wasn't merged with Justice at that point in time.

There's a difference between choosing one or two of the endings to be canon, and well... making an ending that couldn't work for any of the epilouges--particularly Justice's. Anders explains that at the time, he'd thought merging with Justice was better than having Justice inhabit Kristoff's corpse. Any endings regarding in Kristoff's body for years then would be canon. However Anders is in Kirkwall no more than one year after the blight emerges.

I think this is really the biggest problem. No I'm not agreeing with you anywhere. The problem is that the fans are operating off of what they think to be the actual timeline as the DA wiki states. But the devs keep the official timeline secret.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 avril 2011 - 04:55 .

[Maren03]

Plaintiff Wrote...

Anders is not given anything like enough depth in Awakening for us to be making judgement calls about what he would or would not do. We only see one side of him: a jokester, an attention seeker, the class clown.

Brooding incessantly about a designated subject all the time =/= depth. By your logic, characters like Alistair and Zevran can't be taken seriously because they're not moping or spouting about their political ideologies or personal agenda every other second.  While Anders naturally might have had a sense of humor/sarcasm, I agree with you that in part like Alistair, it was also used as a defense mechanism. He even infers to this in the game, stating that sometimes he has to remind himself to make a concious effort to smile and be happy, but its not like this was all there was to the character and that he NEVER lowered his barriers to confide in the warden-commander about things like his past. This also brings up an interesting point because:

If his sense of humor was supposed to help through at least in part, being a defense mechanism, why isn't this aspect of him more apparent in his character? If Justice emerges whenever Anders gets too overwhelmed with his emotions, what sense does it make for him  to leave them so susceptible by brooding so much over a given subject, when he could always use the defense mechanism he's always had to try and prevent this from happening?

Gah! I feel like both Anders and Justice got the short end of the stick this game. Anders got stripped of almost whatever other dimension he had as a character to be a one-track-minded walking/talking polical ideology for mages, and Justice? Forget about any other aspects of the character like his desire to learn more about the mortal world and experience new things, he only comes out when Anders gets angry.

Plaintiff Wrote..

Who is to say that Ander's quips are representative of his true feelings?

Uh .. the fact he can approve or dissapprove of your actions? The fact he can get upset at a character or end conversation with them...? You can't just disregard everything he says as merely 'him being silly', Anders has made many decisions throughout the game that backed up his feelings towards certain subjects, and that includes his support of the Circle through his epilogue. Again, just because he had a sense of humor didn't mean he was bereft of any firm opinions of his own.

Plantiff Wrote...

Why does everything have to be "properly explained"?

The writers made a radical change to Anders' personality that doesn't even add up chronologically. He's so different from the character many fans enjoyed that the transition needs to properly explained, IF it can be explained, otherwise it just feels like an entirely different character in his place.

Deztyn Wrote...

This here is my biggest problem with Anders 2.0.

I can easily accept that much of his personality change is due to inhabiting the same headspace as Justice.

I can't in part because:

1) Anders and Justice are split personalities and

2) If you read Anders' story, he was written radically different and OOC BEFORE he even joined with Justice. To read said story, click here for more info.

Modifié par Maren03, 23 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[Deztyn]

Maren03 wrote...

Deztyn Wrote...

This here is my biggest problem with Anders 2.0.

I can easily accept that much of his personality change is due to inhabiting the same headspace as Justice.

I can't in part because:

1) Anders and Justice are split personalities and

2) If you read Anders' story, he was written radically different and OOC BEFORE he even joined with Justice. To read said story, click here for more info.

Errr.... yes?

That's why I followed the first sentence with: "But too much offscreen development has to occur in a very short time for the merge to feel like a natural character evolution rather than The Demand of The Plot™."

Anyhow, It's not such a stretch to imagine that while Anders and Justice are split personalities, Justice still influences his thoughts and actions. If his decision to merge with Justice was developed better I could accept it. It's not very well developed so Anders 2.0 he is.

Modifié par Deztyn, 23 avril 2011 - 05:58 .

[MikoDoll]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



No, saying "maybe if we met one year ago" is not saying Anders merged with Justice one year prior to that line. It's saying he wasn't merged with Justice at that point in time. 

Y'know, I'll take that for the time being. 

However again any epilouge that could be canon for Justice doesn't add up since Anders was possessed with Justice by Act 1. If Justice had showed up in Act II maybe. That's kinda why I side with my theory it was a demon posing perhaps as Justice. Certainly clears up any bugs in Justice's timeline XD

I think this is really the biggest problem. No I'm not agreeing with you anywhere. The problem is that the fans are operating off of what they think to be the actual timeline as the DA wiki states. 

Ah looks like we're ont he same page for discussion <3

Anyways, operating off of the DA wiki would be me saying "Awakening happened 6 months after Origins." when nothing in game to my knowledge mentions it. I'm basing this off of the only epilouges with the potential to be canon for Justice especially.  Discarding ALL the epilouges is a bit farfetched to me. Why for example go through the trouble of explaining things like Anders getting killed in awakening if you go to meet Nathaniel in Act III if they could just do that (specifically if he died in yours) if they could just ignore it and say it wasn't canon. I think there's some acknowledging that some at least one would need to be considered.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 23 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[Ulicus]

On the one hand, I really enjoyed the role and character Anders had in DA2. On the other -- as I've seen others say -- his being Anders felt wholly unneccessary. Who Anders was and what he did (or didn't do) in Awakening had next to no impact on his narrative. It seems the only thing his being Anders has done is create characterisation and continuity problems for some people.

"But Anders wasn't like that!" "But I didn't even recruit Anders into the Wardens!", etc.

And I think that's a real shame.

[MikoDoll]

A very interesting point. I think it could've probably been a pretty grabbing character if it...weren't supposed to be Anders. A guy we never met becoming Justice's host would've been easier to believe given the differences.Lot fewer plot bugs too. The only thing I would've probably been a bit dissapointed with is the fact that he seems (similarly to Fenris) very ...fixated on his mission, not much else really going on for him this game outside of it.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 23 avril 2011 - 10:13 .

[Ulicus]

I feel the spirit being Justice was even less important than Anders being Anders, honestly. Any spirit of justice/vengeance would have done the job. Though I suppose there was the friendship angle and the whole "oh my god, two of my Warden's companions just... oh my god" thing. (Though that falls flat if you didn't recruit either)

If they really wanted to bring back a character we were already familiar with, though (ala Merill and Isabela), I can think of no-one better than Jowan. He had a short, self-contained plot that always occurred independent of the player's decisions, pre-existing tranquil issues, a minor/strong connection to the Warden (depending on Origin), familiarity with abominations, a fairly decent reason to refrain from blood magic after his own experiences... and he was "weak" enough that a merger with a "good spirit" would probably appeal to him as a means to power and emancipation.

Obviously the problem is that you can kill him in DA:O... but throw in an "I got better" line (involving the spirit, perhaps?) and it'd have been fine.

Modifié par Ulicus, 23 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[MikoDoll]

I...completely agree. This may've been quite suitable for Jowan. He was quite a minor character though (unlike Anders) so I'd have to refresh myself on him since I never played the mage origin. However, it doesn't feel like from what I saw of him, as great a suspension of disbelief would have to occur as it would with Anders. The personality they were looking for fit Jowan better for one.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 23 avril 2011 - 11:48 .

[Ardinal]

 I think one of the main problems with Anders was that we actually had expectations in the first place. The companions in Origins were completly new to us. Those players who 'met' the comical fop and ladies man in Awakenings already had their preconceptions of what was 'expected' from the character in DA2.
When they didn't match, I know personally it took me a little while to adjust to 'Justanders'.

[Ulicus]

Ardinal wrote...

 I think one of the main problems with Anders was that we actually had expectations in the first place. The companions in Origins were completly new to us. Those players who 'met' the comical fop and ladies man in Awakenings already had their preconceptions of what was 'expected' from the character in DA2.
When they didn't match, I know personally it took me a little while to adjust to 'Justanders'.

Yes, I think this hits the nail on the head. Though I prefer "Abominanders" as a moniker.

And, really, the personality shift was adequately explained: Abominanders simply isn't Anders. 

As he describes his situation, he is literally a different person. He identifies himself much more with Anders (and why wouldn't he, outside the Fade?) but my understanding is that Anders and Justice ceased to be the moment they merged. I wouldn't expect blue paint to remain blue after mixing it with yellow.

Modifié par Ulicus, 23 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Viyu]

Ulicus wrote...

Ardinal wrote...

 I think one of the main problems with Anders was that we actually had expectations in the first place. The companions in Origins were completly new to us. Those players who 'met' the comical fop and ladies man in Awakenings already had their preconceptions of what was 'expected' from the character in DA2.
When they didn't match, I know personally it took me a little while to adjust to 'Justanders'.

Yes, I think this hits the nail on the head. Though I prefer "Abominanders" as a moniker.

And, really, the personality shift was adequately explained: Abominanders simply isn't Anders. 

As he describes his situation, he is literally a different person. He identifies himself much more with Anders (and why wouldn't he, outside the Fade?) but my understanding is that Anders and Justice ceased to be the moment they merged. I wouldn't expect blue paint to remain blue after mixing it with yellow.

It's more like the blue paint and the yellow paint arent merged but they're put in the same box. Anders has stark personality swings whenever Justice takes over so it doesn't feel like they really merged into one being, rather than remaining 2 beings inhabiting the same body. And I refuse to call him Anders from now on. Not enough explanation and effort went into explaining the character change. Its like they made a new character and said "It's all because of Justice". It's not that I have expectations, its just that I can't connect with the character because there really is a lot of gaps from when he lacked courage to fight for mages and used humor as a defense mechanism, to when he's a hard arse and a renegade chock full of courage. From now on in this thread. I will refer to DA2 Anders as....Schmitty.

Modifié par Viyu, 23 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[Maren03]

Ulicus Wrote ...

As he describes his situation, he is literally a different person. He identifies himself much more with Anders (and why wouldn't he, outside the Fade?) but my understanding is that Anders and Justice ceased to be the moment they merged.

He's a different person perhaps in the sense he has Justice within him, but any other interpretation besides that doesn't add up because Anders and Justice are two distinct personalities in DA2. Perhaps they can communicate and be aware of each other's pressence, but that's not the same as being single personality. If they were of one mind, why would Justice even have to possess Anders' body in the first place? Why would Anders claim to lose conciousness or have to struggle for control of his body whenver this happens? According to the Anders' short story, he had already changed in personality BEFORE what happened with Justice even occured, insinuating he shifted in personality on his own (and even that assumption had plotholes in it). Anders and Justice are two separate personalities and distinctly refer to themselves as different people despite inhabiting one body. They can't be just a single personality.


I'll say it again, part of the problem with the concept of Janders (or Schmitty as Viyu calls him) is that it doesn't adequately explain the changes of his character or why he'd relinquish his prior personality entirely for it. Anders is a distinct personality from Justice, uses humor and dry wit partially as a defense mechanism, wants to prove to everyone in the cast by DA2 there's nothing wrong with him, but would willingly relinquish the very aspects of his character that might've helped to accomplished this/ helped him emotionally, to brood and make himself more susceptible to Justice's possessions? Its just .. not convincing, I'm sorry.

OP might want to update all these points soon and redirect newcomers to the pages where his sexuality didn't derail the topic. Just a suggestion.

Modifié par Maren03, 23 avril 2011 - 06:33 .

[Ulicus]

Viyu wrote...

It's more like the blue paint and the yellow paint arent merged but they're put in the same box. Anders has stark personality swings whenever Justice takes over so it doesn't feel like they really merged into one being, rather than remaining 2 beings inhabiting the same body.

Yet this contradicts how Abominanders describes the situation to Hawke. He may be lying, of course, but he says that it would be impossible to tell where he ends and Justice begins. In the situation you describe it would be very, very easy to point and say "that's Anders" and "that's Justice" when we're told it isn't meant to be so cut-and-dry.

Maren03 wrote...

He's a different person perhaps in the sense he has Justice within
him, but any other interpretation besides that doesn't add up because
Anders and Justice are two distinct personalities in DA2.

Personality =/= Person.

One person can have multiple personalities. While Abominanders appears to have two identities that he refers to as "Anders" and "Justice", they're both OOC if we assume they're the people Anders and Justice rather than the extremes of this new, amalgamated being.

[Viyu]

Maren03 wrote...

Ulicus Wrote ...

As he describes his situation, he is literally a different person. He identifies himself much more with Anders (and why wouldn't he, outside the Fade?) but my understanding is that Anders and Justice ceased to be the moment they merged.

He's a different person perhaps in the sense he has Justice within him, but any other interpretation besides that doesn't add up because Anders and Justice are two distinct personalities in DA2. Perhaps they can communicate and be aware of each other's pressence, but that's not the same as being single personality. If they were of one mind, why would Justice even have to possess Anders' body in the first place? Why would Anders claim to lose conciousness or have to struggle for control of his body whenver this happens? According to the Anders' short story, he had already changed in personality BEFORE what happened with Justice even occured, insinuating he shifted in personality on his own (and even that assumption had plotholes in it). Anders and Justice are two separate personalities and distinctly refer to themselves as different people despite inhabiting one body. They can't be just a single personality.


I'll say it again, part of the problem with the concept of Janders (or Schmitty as Viyu calls him) is that it doesn't adequately explain the changes of his character or why he'd relinquish his prior personality entirely for it. Anders is a distinct personality from Justice, uses humor and dry wit partially as a defense mechanism, wants to prove to everyone in the cast by DA2 there's nothing wrong with him, but would willingly relinquish the very aspects of his character that might've helped to accomplished this/ helped him emotionally, to brood and make himself more susceptible to Justice's possessions? Its just .. not convincing, I'm sorry.

OP might want to update all these points soon and redirect newcomers to the pages where his sexuality didn't derail the topic. Just a suggestion.

The problem with... Schmitty, is that he's too open and willing to brood about his personal problems. Anders would have tried to sprinkle some humor to it to avoid revealing things that were personal like when Nathaniel was prodding him with questions that were related to his phylactery.

[Viyu]

Ulicus wrote...


Yet this contradicts how Abominanders describes the situation to Hawke. He may be lying, of course, but he says that it would be impossible to tell where he ends and Justice begins. In the situation you describe it would be very, very easy to point and say "that's Anders" and "that's Justice" when we're told it isn't meant to be so cut-and-dry.

It may not have been meant to be so cut and dry, but that's what it is. For example Schmitty does the whole" Woe is me, Justice thinks my obsession with you is a distraction."" HURR, I thought you didn't know when you begin and he ends. The needless emo melodramatics got bothersome after awhile.

ok I'm done bein silly guys

Modifié par Viyu, 23 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[MikoDoll]

Ulicus wrote...

Maren03 wrote...

He's a different person perhaps in the sense he has Justice within
him, but any other interpretation besides that doesn't add up because
Anders and Justice are two distinct personalities in DA2.

Personality =/= Person.

One person can have multiple personalities. While Abominanders appears to have two identities that he refers to as "Anders" and "Justice", they're both OOC if we assume they're the people Anders and Justice rather than the extremes of this new, amalgamated being.

There's a difference between extremes in one person's personality (as most of us have them on some level) and dissasociation between two or more personalities. That's like saying a person with dissasociative personality disorder doesn't have distinct personalities coexisting within one body, simply because the specific personalities can behave in extremes (and some do). Anders dissasociates with the other personality within him that is Justice. An actual merge in personality would mean Anders wouldn't disassociate himself with Justice (and vice versa) because this new person would understand both to be of one personality. Second Anders will even go as far as lose consciousness or be aware when Justice is controlling his body and sits there horrified at the mess he makes when it's over. This does not really constitute one single personality, but two personalities with BOTH disassociating from the other. Even when Justice comes out, he reffers to Anders as "Anders", and not as himself. It is OOC I think that the Anders' personality wants to control Justice and to prove to characters like Fenris that he is not weak. However, Anders simply broods and allows his anger towards the plights of mages to fester. And Justice comes out when he is angered. Anders' joking attitude in Awakening despite all he went through seemed to keep him up if you will. It was something he'd made an effort at doing if he had to. So you'd think therefore with the threat of Justice emerging when he's angry, that he'd try harder to keep that attitude.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 24 avril 2011 - 07:09 .