318 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...
 I don't really remember ANY plotholes in ME2 at all...

*cough*thermalclips*cough*


... Though I guess that's more of a retcon than anything.

[TEWR]

If you talk to Anders in Awakening he holds a lot of bent up anger and frustration against the Templars and Chantry already.

He talks about how the Chantry twists Andraste's words to collar mages.

He talks about how he wants to rain down lightning on every Templar in creation.

And when you talk to Wynne and he says that the Libertarians can't pull away entirely, he doesn't mean he supports the Circle. He means they can't just randomly pull away without a proper reason to (like the Mage Templar war). The Libertarians are making a bold and reckless move.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 avril 2011 - 06:28 .

[uanime5]

It would have been better if they introduced a new character, rather than tried to remake Anders to fill a role they needed. They could have introduced a rogue grey warden mage from anywhere and after destroying the Chantry have them explain that they went rogue because of their hatred of the Chantry.

[BlaCKRodjj]

 The only way i see plausible the fact anders is what it is in this game is that Justice got "killed" in Awakening (kristoff) and found Anders and they merged somehow for some reason (not defined) and it's actually Justice who is acting through Anders or controlling/changing him even if he doesn't realize (from coward to mage freedom fighter, bisexual, blood magic hater) Still, it's a pitty they made Anders in a way that completely disregards the Epilogue of Awakening for both him and Justice.
Also, somewhat of topic, the Zevran & Leliana's cameos are also disregarding some of the Epilogues, well, at least for Leliana is undestandable, but in some cases Zevran should be the leader of the crows in some endings if i recall. I always imagined that he stole vigilance and gave it to the warden afterwards.

[Viyu]

uanime5 wrote...

It would have been better if they introduced a new character, rather than tried to remake Anders to fill a role they needed. They could have introduced a rogue grey warden mage from anywhere and after destroying the Chantry have them explain that they went rogue because of their hatred of the Chantry.

And that is why I call DA2 "Anders" Schmitty because he's technically a new character. Perhaps I should've called him "Fredrick" as poetic justice. Oh well too late now. Anyway, I personally think Schmitty should stay a DA2 oneshot and let  Anders  return from awakening. And let it be revealed that Schmitty is Anders' neurotic twin. Yeah. Yeah! That could totally work!

*cough*.....

Modifié par Viyu, 27 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[Rifneno]

Viyu wrote...

uanime5 wrote...

It would have been better if they introduced a new character, rather than tried to remake Anders to fill a role they needed. They could have introduced a rogue grey warden mage from anywhere and after destroying the Chantry have them explain that they went rogue because of their hatred of the Chantry.

And that is why I call DA2 "Anders" Schmitty because he's technically a new character. Perhaps I should've called him "Fredrick" as poetic justice. Oh well too late now. Anyway, I personally think Schmitty should stay a DA2 oneshot and let  Anders  return from awakening. And let it be revealed that Schmitty is Anders' neurotic twin. Yeah. Yeah! That could totally work!

*cough*.....

"You jest, but it's the truth." - Elthina.  It would still make more sense than... pretty much all of Act III.

[Viyu]

I honestly should make a Schmitty parody fanclub/fan thread and a Schmitty x Hawke banner XD

...But then I might get banned. Or would I? lol

Modifié par Viyu, 27 avril 2011 - 09:19 .

[TEWR]

uanime5 wrote...

It would have been better if they introduced a new character, rather than tried to remake Anders to fill a role they needed. They could have introduced a rogue grey warden mage from anywhere and after destroying the Chantry have them explain that they went rogue because of their hatred of the Chantry.

I don't think that would've worked as well. Why would a Grey Warden mage go rogue unless they had to (like Anders merging with Justice and Templar Wardens trying to kill him)? Like I said, Anders hated the Chantry and the Circle. If he didn't, he wouldn't have escaped from the Circle seven times. He would've stayed.

He laughed when his Templar guards died from the Darkspawn (assuming that's the case. We just walk in on them dead. I believe he didn't kill them though).

He wants to kill every Templar he comes across.

He hates the Chantry for twisting Andraste's words to what they feel she meant.

His talks with Justice had an impact on his way of thinking, even before he merged with him. People change. We aren't static creatures who live in only one way of life.

And I can't see why people have a problem with his sexuality now (I realize this part of the discussion was dropped, but I'm just saying). It was never explicitly stated he only liked women.

If you peel away the jokes from Awakening, you'll see a very angry, resentful, and dark person

[Mage One]

Some days, I like to think DA2 takes place years after Awakenings, and the Anders in DA2 is really a student of the actual Anders (The actual Anders still living in Amaranthine and teaching mages for the Grey Wardens) who's not all right in the head.

Modifié par Mage One, 29 avril 2011 - 01:12 .

[Ulicus]

Mage One wrote...

Some days, I like to think DA2 takes place years after Awakenings, and the Anders in DA2 is really a student of the actual Anders (The actual Anders still living in Amaranthine and teaching mages for the Grey Wardens) who's not all right in the head.

Anders is akin to a Buffyverse vampire, as they were originally portrayed. You're not looking at Anders, you're looking at the thing that killed him.

Hey. If Kirkwall's a Hellmouth, and I can play FemHawke as Buffyish... does that make Anders/Justice Angel/Angelus?

Damn. They should have played "close your eyes" during the knife-in-the-back scene.

Modifié par Ulicus, 29 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[Deztyn]

Anders seems more like Spike than Angel. At least for Rivalmance. It's the whole I love you but I really want to kill you and hate everything you stand for thing. Definitely soulless Spuffy.

Modifié par Deztyn, 29 avril 2011 - 01:40 .

[Ulicus]

Deztyn wrote...

Anders seems more like Spike than Angel. At least for Rivalmance. It's the whole I love you but I really want to kill you and hate everything you stand for thing. Definitely soulless Spuffy.

I wasn't really talking about his personality. More the "OMG you've turned bad and I've got to kill you [sadface]" thing. With Sebastian as Xanders. And the Chantry as... uh, Jenny Calendar.

IT WORKED IN MY HEAD.

Briefly.

[Deztyn]

Sorry I ruined it for you.

... but if the Chantry is Jenny, who is Giles?

Modifié par Deztyn, 29 avril 2011 - 02:06 .

[FiachSidhe]

1. People change. Anders went through a lot between then and now, and his views are different since arriving in Kirkwall. It's a different place and the Chantry is different there.
2. A lot of this rapid change is due to Justice. They are one now, thus Anders is influenced by Justice, who has been warped by human emotion and because Vengeance.
Justice is due to righteousness, Revenge is driven by anger.

[thedistortedchild]

Ulicus wrote...

Damn. They should have played "close your eyes" during the knife-in-the-back scene.

close your eyes? ...

*googles*



Why'd you make me do that? 

[Viyu]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you talk to Anders in Awakening he holds a lot of bent up anger and frustration against the Templars and Chantry already.

He talks about how the Chantry twists Andraste's words to collar mages.

He talks about how he wants to rain down lightning on every Templar in creation.

And when you talk to Wynne and he says that the Libertarians can't pull away entirely, he doesn't mean he supports the Circle. He means they can't just randomly pull away without a proper reason to (like the Mage Templar war). The Libertarians are making a bold and reckless move.

I don't believe this.He was just as upset at the templars in Awakening as he was during the time he was posessed in Hepler's story. He lamented about being ripped from his family at 12, something that should've given him enough bitterness for him to disagree with Wynne by Awakening. So it doesn't seem reasonable that this was what he meant.

FiachSidhe wrote...

1. People change. Anders went through a
lot between then and now, and his views are different since arriving in
Kirkwall. It's a different place and the Chantry is different there.
2.
A lot of this rapid change is due to Justice. They are one now, thus
Anders is influenced by Justice, who has been warped by human emotion
and because Vengeance.
Justice is due to righteousness, Revenge is driven by anger.

1.His views had nothing to do with his experiences in Kirkwall. If you read Hepler's story, his mind was set before he met Justice. This is sort of implied during the game, when he recieves Justice's aid to
make a stand against the Chantry. The problem is, there is no explanation as to what  prompted him to suddenly believe the circle needed to be destroyed, in contrast to his beliefs in Awakening.

2. Justice and Anders are two separate beings cohabitating in the same body. Justice disapproves of Anders' relationship to Hawke for example, but Anders knows that it's not HIMSELF that feels that way and can
distinguish the two feelings. If you are Anders' rival, you'll notice he has blackout periods when Justice takes over and cannot remember what happens when Justice becomes dominant, rather than that period of time transcending into Anders' consciousness.

Modifié par Viyu, 01 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[Ulicus]

Viyu wrote...

2. Justice and Anders are two separate beings cohabitating in the same body. Justice disapproves of Anders' relationship to Hawke for example, but Anders knows that it's not HIMSELF that feels that way and can
distinguish the two feelings. If you are Anders' rival, you'll notice he has blackout periods when Justice takes over and cannot remember what happens when Justice becomes dominant, rather than that period of time transcending into Anders' consciousness.

Saying it over and over again doesn't make it any more true. The fact he has an "Anders mode" and a "Justice mode" doesn't mean they persist as two distinct beings. Trying to turn them into roommates grossly oversimplifies the situation.

Your answer doesn't address the point FiachSidhe made, either. Even if they ARE merely co-habiting, as you believe, it is made abundantly clear that the merger has had an adverse affect on the characters of both "Anders" and "Justice". Neither are unchanged.

I don't think Anders was the best possible choice for this role either... but this is getting ridiculous. If Justice has become Vengeance (and two beings or one, he HAS), why wouldn't Anders be drastically altered too?

Modifié par Ulicus, 01 mai 2011 - 10:17 .

[Viyu]

Ulicus wrote...

Viyu wrote...

2. Justice and Anders are two separate beings cohabitating in the same body. Justice disapproves of Anders' relationship to Hawke for example, but Anders knows that it's not HIMSELF that feels that way and can
distinguish the two feelings. If you are Anders' rival, you'll notice he has blackout periods when Justice takes over and cannot remember what happens when Justice becomes dominant, rather than that period of time transcending into Anders' consciousness.

Saying it over and over again doesn't make it any more true. The fact he has an "Anders mode" and a "Justice mode" doesn't mean they persist as two distinct beings. Trying to turn them into roommates grossly oversimplifies the situation.

Your answer doesn't address the point FiachSidhe made, either. Even if they ARE merely co-habiting, as you believe, it is made abundantly clear that the merger has had an adverse affect on the characters of both "Anders" and "Justice". Neither are unchanged.

I don't think Anders was the best possible choice for this role either... but this is getting ridiculous. If Justice has become Vengeance (and two beings or one, he HAS), why wouldn't Anders be drastically altered too?

What's being oversimplified is the catalyst of Anders' change immediately after Awakening. Anders is ferverent in his belief that the circle must fall before merging with Justice causing a chain reaction of other problems because this was never given any proper development. The reasons Anders gives in-game, but most particularly in Hepler's story are rather weak, and did not offer any new points of view and opinons that he had in Awakening that would exhibit a change in characterization in which Anders was willing to accept being posessed for the sake of destroying the circle. So WHAT exactly triggered his willingness to accept Justice's aid to rid the circle in the first place? 

Modifié par Viyu, 01 mai 2011 - 10:53 .

[Furtled]

MikoDoll wrote...

Anders speaks of the problems of mages, quite a bit in Awakening. He's just not from what I'd gathered speaking about it with the idea the Circle is without purpose and needs to be destroyed and that he needs to head a revolution. But of I missed ay scenes when making my consideration could you please post the dialouge? What motivates Anders in DA2 lacks of understanding for why a revolution hadn't been done (when it had with Uldred) and why the Circle should be allowed to exist (when he knows of several important services (like education) that only the circle can reliable provide mages.

You're absolutely right that he doesn't actively call for revolution in Awakenings, in all honesty I'm not 100% sure in my own mind if the whole Anders/Justice thing is a merge, a timeshare, or some funky combination of the two. That said I do still feel comfortable with the character changes between the two games being due to events as described, but I'm in no way expecting anyone to agree with me.

Modifié par Furtled, 03 mai 2011 - 04:49 .