318 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

nekhbet wrote...

I'd recommend listening to a lot of Awakening party banter. It's... amazing how much foreshadowing there is. How Justice and Anders discuss striking against the oppression, how Nathaniel encourages Justice to find a willing body to possess... just go back and pay attention to what's going on in Awakening and reconsider your arguments, OP.

I noticed all that too before I played DA2 for the first time.

"For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.."

Epic foreshadowing. Bioware had been planning this all along.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 avril 2011 - 02:51 .

[Viyu]

nekhbet wrote...

I'd recommend listening to a lot of Awakening party banter. It's... amazing how much foreshadowing there is. How Justice and Anders discuss striking against the oppression, how Nathaniel encourages Justice to find a willing body to possess... just go back and pay attention to what's going on in Awakening and reconsider your arguments, OP.

Just because there is foreshadowing does not mean you can simply create plotholes that don't chronologically or logically add up. Someone implying that event Z will happen later on does not mean it is not a writer's responsibility to bridge the logical connection from event A to event Z. So Just because Justice foreshadows becoming a demon and posessing Anders does not explain why Anders willingly became posessed by Justice in the first place, not when he was a coward who was unwilling to die for mage freedom, and blatantly thought that chantry oversight over mages was important.

[Rifneno]

I bet the sexuality thing is Oghren's fault.  Remember when he convinced Velanna that dwarves are born in stone eggs, and warmed in the lava?  Justice doesn't seem to get any of his innuendo.  I bet he thought it'd be funny to fill his head with nonsense, not realizing doing so would eventually fill Ander's something else with something else. 

[Purposeof-Flight]

Viyu wrote...

nekhbet wrote...

I'd recommend listening to a lot of Awakening party banter. It's... amazing how much foreshadowing there is. How Justice and Anders discuss striking against the oppression, how Nathaniel encourages Justice to find a willing body to possess... just go back and pay attention to what's going on in Awakening and reconsider your arguments, OP.

Just because there is foreshadowing does not mean you can simply create plotholes that don't chronologically or logically add up. Someone implying that event Z will happen later on does not mean it is not a writer's responsibility to bridge the logical connection from event A to event Z. So Just because Justice foreshadows becoming a demon and posessing Anders does not explain why Anders willingly became posessed by Justice in the first place, not when he was a coward who was unwilling to die for mage freedom, and blatantly thought that chantry oversight over mages was important.

NOTHING adds up chronologically.
It's not just Anders....the WHOLE timeline is messed up.

[nekhbet]

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time. So my opinion on Anders' sexuality doesn't simply rest on the "sword" joke. It's not that I could NEVER imagine Anders bi, but it makes no chronological sense that Karl would be his first. It's implied through the fact that Anders had no preference towards men during Awakening, that Karl and Anders couldn't have met before Anders "became" a Warden. And again, it makes no sense that Justice could posess Anders and leave the Wardens for Kirkwall merely a year after the blight. What I am trying to say, is that it'd be more practical if Hawke was Anders' first, and the transition from straight to bi should have been explored carefully and intimately.

Sexuality is a fluid thing. It's pretty much the standard type of bisexuality that you go through phases of fancying men more for a while and then you find yourself fancying women more for a while. The people who fancy 50% women and 50% men at all times throughout their lives, expressing it nonstop, are few.

In Awakening, there's simply no telling what Anders' sexuality is. He likes girls for sure, but nothing says he doesn't fancy boys as well. You simply can't tell, which is how it usually is for bisexual people. You don't know until they say it.

[Miri1984]

@Viyu I could pick apart every single one of your arguments if I had the time, but really your original post comes down to this:

"Bioware didn't do what I wanted them to do with a character, therefore he sucks".

Which is... just a big whine, truly. And my response to that is: too bad, how sad.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Viyu I could pick apart every single one of your arguments if I had the time, but really your original post comes down to this:

"Bioware didn't do what I wanted them to do with a character, therefore he sucks".

Which is... just a big whine, truly. And my response to that is: too bad, how sad.

I just...love you so much, Miri.

[LT123]

Try talking to Anders in Awakening and disagreeing with what he says about the Circle or mages. He gets angry-he's not just the comic relief. This is a guy who has been stuck in solitary confinement for a year with only a cat for company.

The epilogues are treated as rumors, according to a dev post.

The blood magic thing is gameplay and story segregation. You could do the same thing to Wynne in Origins. Is it in character? No.

About the "Why don't you fight" conversation with Justice-Anders references it in a banter with Isabela. He basically says that then he didn't care what anyone thought of him, but after that conversation he couldn't stop thinking about it.

As far as the "slack jawed coward" thing, that's from a banter with Oghren, and they snipe back and forth like that all through Awakening. It's pretty funny. "Sparklefingers!"

I'm not sure about the timeline. There's not an official one anywhere, as far as I know.

[mhendon]

You have a very well thought out argument with specific examples to support it. I wish more people were like you.

About the bisexuality thing--he certainly seemed more interested in women in Awakening. "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal and the right to shoot lightning at fools" as opposed to saying something gender neutral. If you are a female Hawke, you never learn that Karl was his lover so you could say that in a femhawke universe Anders is, in fact, straight. Either way, I don't think bisexuality was completely out of the question for him. If I'd had to guess in Awakening I would have said he was straight.

I think all of your other points are superb. I had many of the same questions. Also, I miss Awakening Anders. *sad face*

[bleetman]

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time.

For the record, bisexual or homosexual men do not, as a rule, flirt with every other man they come across. It's not a means of disproving his preferences.

That the man never flirts with a belching dwarf, a brooding pariah or his commanding officer doesn't make me conclude he was irreversibly straight.

Modifié par bleetman, 21 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[Nepenthe87]

I agree that the bisexuality comes out of nowhere from awakenings to da2. Even if the Op's example is a poor one.

In Awakenings he is very much shown to be a womanizer. The very first comment he makes is on Mhairi's breasts. Most other females are met with the same faux-suave reaction from Anders. correct me if i am wrong, but he never once makes any comment or hinting at even considering men. Why would he be so openly flirtatious only with women if he was intended to be a bi-sexual character, and not something you can uncover in the story? Helping someone figure that they are overcompensating by ignoring their sexuality would be a very great character story.

Anyway i just blame all his personality changes on justice call it a day. Him being straight is an injustice to gay and bisexual men everywhere!

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 21 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[TEWR]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Viyu I could pick apart every single one of your arguments if I had the time, but really your original post comes down to this:

"Bioware didn't do what I wanted them to do with a character, therefore he sucks".

Which is... just a big whine, truly. And my response to that is: too bad, how sad.

• LOL at that
• I wish you did have the time. I enjoy seeing posts picked apart. It adds to discussions

[The Angry One]

Maybe he was in a phase in his life where he preferrred women. Yes, it does happen.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

I agree that the bisexuality comes out of nowhere from awakenings to da2. Even if the Op's example is a poor one.

In Awakenings he is very much shown to be a womanizer. The very first comment he makes is on Mhairi's breasts. Most other females are met with the same faux-suave reaction from Anders. correct me if i am wrong, but he never once makes any comment or hinting at even considering men. Why would he be so openly flirtatious only with women if he was intended to be a bi-sexual character.

Anyway i just blame all his personality changes on justice call it a day. Him being straight is an injustice to gay and bisexual men everywhere!

That's Oghren.
Anders calls Mhairi a "lovely woman".
Oghren says she "has a nice rack."

[Dunizel]

nekhbet wrote...

I'd recommend listening to a lot of Awakening party banter. It's... amazing how much foreshadowing there is. How Justice and Anders discuss striking against the oppression, how Nathaniel encourages Justice to find a willing body to possess... just go back and pay attention to what's going on in Awakening and reconsider your arguments, OP.

Indeed. Check even Justice dialogues with Velanna and the Warden. 
You will see that Justice by the end of Awakening is already changed.

About Anders, not considering the sexuality aspect because it is not relevant imo, not as much as the character. 
Anders already hated templars...in the same dialogue someone mentioned about freedom and the right to shoot lightnings at fools, another dialogue option leads him to say he wants to firestorm every templar in sight.
Anders hates the institution of the Chantry and the Templars, but he is religious in Awakening as he is in DA2 (in his manifesto he still talks about the Maker and Andraste). 
Is it really so difficult to imagine a man that escaped seven times from the Circle, and had spent one year in solitary confinement, to develop some sort of issues? I think not. In Awakening he just hid them behind sarcarm. 
We didn't see what he had been through, nor what he saw in Kirkwall in those years. But I think that it is completely possible for him to have changed like that.

Modifié par Dunizel, 21 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[nekhbet]

Nepenthe87 wrote...
In Awakenings he is very much shown to be a womanizer. The very first comment he makes is on Mhairi's breasts. Most other females are met with the same faux-suave reaction from Anders. correct me if i am wrong, but he never once makes any comment or hinting at even considering men. Why would he be so openly flirtatious only with women if he was intended to be a bi-sexual character, and not something you can uncover in the story? Helping someone figure that they are overcompensating by ignoring their sexuality would be a very great character story.

Because that's how bisexual people are; see my comment somewhere above. He could have been straight, as well, but there's nothing that indicates he could not have been bi.

[Purposeof-Flight]

nekhbet wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...
In Awakenings he is very much shown to be a womanizer. The very first comment he makes is on Mhairi's breasts. Most other females are met with the same faux-suave reaction from Anders. correct me if i am wrong, but he never once makes any comment or hinting at even considering men. Why would he be so openly flirtatious only with women if he was intended to be a bi-sexual character, and not something you can uncover in the story? Helping someone figure that they are overcompensating by ignoring their sexuality would be a very great character story.

Because that's how bisexual people are; see my comment somewhere above. He could have been straight, as well, but there's nothing that indicates he could not have been bi.

Oh but yes there is.
He didn't hang off of your male Warden, and he doesn't find the thought of a sword up the arse appealing.
He must, indeed, be straight.

The sexuality of a character should not matter this much to people...are you guys emotionally attached to his straightness or what?

[Viyu]

bleetman wrote...

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time.

For the record, bisexual or homosexual men do not, as a rule, flirt with every other man they come across. It's not a means of disproving his preferences.

That the man never flirts with a belching dwarf, a brooding pariah or his commanding officer doesn't make me conclude he was irreversibly straight.

I call foul. Why? Because your male warden can have the EXACT same backstory and personality as the female and it does not change the fact he still prefers the woman.

[The Angry One]

Viyu wrote...

I call foul. Why? Because your male warden can have the EXACT same backstory and personality as the female and it does not change the fact he still prefers the woman.

And? So? Therefore?
All we get from that is at that time, Anders preferred women. He can still be attracted to men while going through a time when he's thinking more about being with women.
It happens to me.

[TEWR]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

nekhbet wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...
In Awakenings he is very much shown to be a womanizer. The very first comment he makes is on Mhairi's breasts. Most other females are met with the same faux-suave reaction from Anders. correct me if i am wrong, but he never once makes any comment or hinting at even considering men. Why would he be so openly flirtatious only with women if he was intended to be a bi-sexual character, and not something you can uncover in the story? Helping someone figure that they are overcompensating by ignoring their sexuality would be a very great character story.

Because that's how bisexual people are; see my comment somewhere above. He could have been straight, as well, but there's nothing that indicates he could not have been bi.

Oh but yes there is.
He didn't hang off of your male Warden, and he doesn't find the thought of a sword up the arse appealing.
He must, indeed, be straight.

The sexuality of a character should not matter this much to people...are you guys emotionally attached to his straightness or what?

Because everyone should definitely find rape appealing. If they don't, there's something wrong with their sexuality.

He could've been straight when Awakening took place and then realized that gender doesn't matter, it's who the person is (which if I recall correctly, he says that somewhere in DA2)

[autumnyte]

Regarding his sexuality, I absolutely read Anders as being bisexual (or pansexual) in Awakening from the get-go.  He was very flirty and suggestive in this banter with Nathaniel, for one thing. 

I don't think his lack of flirting with a male warden can be taken as evidence that he wasn't into guys. A lot of people are reluctant to express an immediate interest in someone of the opposite sex for fear of negative reaction. And I always thought his "ew" at Oghren's sword comment was more about the Templar angle. 

[Miri1984]

Truly, what does it matter if he never made any comments about men in Awakenings? Perhaps he wasn't attracted to any of them? Nathaniel's got an enormous hooter, Oghren's short and smelly and Justice is DEAD. He didn't really have many male flirting OPTIONS, especially if your warden was female. And if your warden was male, NEWSFLASH he probably WASN'T ANDERS' TYPE. SHOCK HORROR.

Anders being bi is not a plot hole. Period.

[Amondra]

le sigh it just seems to me on the bi thing is people are afraid that they might be attracted to a fake man or that he might like Hawke's cawke more...I honestly don't care if he was bi or not, I went into the game with the intent to tap his ass, and I did.

[nekhbet]

Viyu wrote...
I call foul. Why? Because your male warden can have the EXACT same backstory and personality as the female and it does not change the fact he still prefers the woman.

Just means he could have been straight, or he simply fancied girls more at that time. It does not mean he had to be straight and his open bisexuality in DA2 is retconned or forced.

Seriously, you hear this on good authority now from a bisexual person. It's normal, it's how we usually are.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He could've been straight when Awakening took place and then realized that gender doesn't matter, it's who the person is (which if I recall correctly, he says that somewhere in DA2)

That's... not even remotely how sexuality works.