318 réponses à ce sujet

[_Aine_]

The Angry One wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I really shouldn't but ok I'll bite. How does sexuality work? Please. Enlighten me.

Well, when two people love each other very much...

... they flirt once or twice and then not kiss for three years.  

(Hey, it happens!)

  

[The Angry One]

Well I was going to say, they both take vows of chastity before Andraste!

....

Damn you Sebastian!

[nekhbet]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He could've been straight when Awakening took place and then realized that gender doesn't matter, it's who the person is (which if I recall correctly, he says that somewhere in DA2)

That's... not even remotely how sexuality works.

I really shouldn't but ok I'll bite. How does sexuality work? Please. Enlighten me.

Sexuality is fluid, it can change over time. It's entirely possible that Anders could have noticed he also likes boys at some point after Awakening (though we know this isn't the case because of Karl). But it's entirely possible. I know people who realised they're bisexual at 50, having lived as straight in satisfying relationships all their lives. Not so satisfying relationships for people who realised they're gay, though. That's more about denial of self.

But I digress, we're talking about bisexuality. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kinsey_scale for example, to read more.

Modifié par nekhbet, 21 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[Miri1984]

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

NEWSFLASH he probably WASN'T ANDERS' TYPE. SHOCK HORROR.

What!? NO! The player is everyone's type by universal law set in stone by the gods!

Considering Hawke, whom apparently Anders has a stiffy for no matter what, is essentially the same person as the Warden (because let's face it, everyone has a certain style even if that style is trying every different style), that doesn't really work.  If Hawke is his type, then the Warden probably was too.

See, this is a statement that looks logical from a distance, but when you examine it closely, becomes meaningless twaddle. 

Sweeping generlisations? CHECK
Conclusions based on little or no evidence? CHECK
Inability to be flexible for individual circumstances? CHECK

My warden and my Hawke couldn't have been more different if they'd TRIED.

WARDEN: Gay, dark haired, male, circle mage, grey warden commander elf.
HAWKE: Straight, red haired, apostate mage (ok, so they're VAGUELY SIMILAR HERE), champion of Kirkwall, human.

Perhaps people who roleplay the same character every time they play could have Hawkes and wardens who are similar, but their backstories are going to be completely different no matter what.

[The Angry One]

Honestly I deliberately played my first Hawke as differently as possible from my canon Cousland, assuming they're the same type of person is futile.
And even if they were, maybe Anders changed his mind.

Modifié par The Angry One, 21 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[Rifneno]

DeaHamlet wrote...
Oh really? Perhaps I should tell some of my bi acquaintances of your sweeping claims.  They ought to enjoy being told that what they went through is so "not even remotely how sexuality works".  It should be a laugh to hear their reaction.

Almost as much of a laugh as claiming one suddenly has an epiphany that we should all love based on what's inside and that gender is meaningless.  That's absurd.  And frankly, fairly self-righteous since it implies that everyone straight or gay is just being shallow.

Whether it's nature or nurture, people do have an innate sexual preference.  Sometimes more than one.  That doesn't mean it's a conscious decision that "gender doesn't matter."  I've got a friend of 13 years, we know each other better than I have with any woman I've ever been involved with.  We have extremely similar personalities, and agree on every major social issue including being vehemently in favor of equality for gays.  I can safely say I'd rather have a root canal than "hit that," and that has nothing to do with me being too shallow to realize "gender doesn't matter."  It has to do with an innate mental setting that no form of medical science or religious treatment has ever successfully changed in anyone.

Modifié par Rifneno, 21 avril 2011 - 03:23 .

[Nepenthe87]

bleetman wrote...

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time.

For the record, bisexual or homosexual men do not, as a rule, flirt with every other man they come across. It's not a means of disproving his preferences.

That the man never flirts with a belching dwarf, a brooding pariah or his commanding officer doesn't make me conclude he was irreversibly straight.

So a gay or bisexual man wouldn't even jokingly say something flirtatious with one of his closest friends?  Hell i have gay friends who have, being jokingly flirtatious, called me cute. I refuse to believe Anders' type of character would not make a joke like that with his best friend (something you can be as a male warden).

Even having a passing comment like that in awakenings and his bisexuality would not have come as a complete surprise in DA2.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 21 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

Whether it's nature or nurture, people do have an innate sexual preference.  Sometimes more than one.  That doesn't mean it's a conscious decision that "gender doesn't matter."  I've got a friend of 13 years, we know each other better than I have with any woman I've ever been involved with.  We have extremely similar personalities, and agree on every major social issue including being vehemently in favor of equality for gays.  I can safely say I'd rather have a root canal than "hit that," and that has nothing to do with me being too shallow to realize "gender doesn't matter."  It has to do with an innate mental setting that no form of medical science or religious treatment has ever successfully changed in anyone.

You're right that some people's preferences will never change, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to a lot of people.

[TEWR]

nekhbet wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He could've been straight when Awakening took place and then realized that gender doesn't matter, it's who the person is (which if I recall correctly, he says that somewhere in DA2)

That's... not even remotely how sexuality works.

I really shouldn't but ok I'll bite. How does sexuality work? Please. Enlighten me.

Sexuality is fluid, it can change over time. It's entirely possible that Anders could have noticed he also likes boys at some point after Awakening (though we know this isn't the case because of Karl). But it's entirely possible. I know people who realised they're bisexual at 50, having lived as straight in satisfying relationships all their lives. Not so satisfying relationships for people who realised they're gay, though. That's more about denial of self.

But I digress, we're talking about bisexuality. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kinsey_scale for example, to read more.

I have not been enlightened, I knew this already!

thank you nekhbet for helping prove what I said (I think). I award you cookies



all you have to do is press this button and they shall be delivered to you.

[TheComfyCat]

Viyu wrote...

► Anders doesn't know where Justice ends and he begins, and there supposedly isn't a way to separate the two. That's not how spirit posession works in the original Dragon Age mythos. Just look at Connor. You don't become fused to the spirit/demon when you allow yourself to be willingly posessed. That also begs the question: Why aren't Justice and Anders separated in the fade like Connor is? And why isn't Anders tranquil after you kill him in the fade?

Gaider had a post a while back talking about the difference between demons and spirits, where he mentions that merging with a spirit is not the same as possession by a demon. It would seem logical, then, that separating Justice from Anders wouldn't be the same as freeing Connor from the desire demon. And "merging" does sound more permanent than "possession".

As to your arguments regarding his change in character... well, he's not Anders anymore by the time we see him in DA2 since he's already merged with Justice. Why would we see any transition between Awakening/ DA2 Anders? He's different as soon as he became one with Justice. He may still have similar characteristics of Awakening Anders, but he's not the same person anymore.

Also, Anders never really specifies whether Karl is his first sexual partner or his first male sexual partner. But... eh.. I don't think his sexual orientation was retconed, I don't really want to get into the argument about his sexual orientation.

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 21 avril 2011 - 03:28 .

[Miri1984]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time.

For the record, bisexual or homosexual men do not, as a rule, flirt with every other man they come across. It's not a means of disproving his preferences.

That the man never flirts with a belching dwarf, a brooding pariah or his commanding officer doesn't make me conclude he was irreversibly straight.

So a gay or bisexual man wouldn't even jokingly say something flirtatious with one of his closest friends?  Hell i have gay friends who have, being jokingly flirtatious, called me cute. I refuse to believe Anders' type of character would not make a joke like that with his best friend (something you can be as a male warden).

Even having a passing comment like that in awakenings and his bisexuality would not have come as a complete surprise in DA2.

Except that as soon as Anders dared to slightly suggest that he might like the company of fellow trouser wearers in DA2 the OMG BIOWARE IS INFECTING US WITH THE GAY comments started. 

And it only came as a complete surprise to people who were EXPECTING HIM TO BE STRAIGHT. And why were people doing that? He'd never claimed to be. People I meet on the street do NOT as a rule say "Hi, my name is Gerald and I'm bisexual."

Granted, it would be nice sometimes if they did, but they DON'T.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Miri1984 wrote...
 People I meet on the street do NOT as a rule say "Hi, my name is Gerald and I'm bisexual."

Granted, it would be nice sometimes if they did, but they DON'T.

Tell me about it.

<_<

[Trophonius]

If Anders was straight, then he was always straight. Since he's not, then we can safely assume he was never straight to begin with. His off-hand comments about women generally came across as a mechanism to deflect implicit psychological damage to me. I mean, his dad doesn't give two s***s about him, his mom was forced to keep her mouth shut or else, and at 12 years old, he was hit with the realization that he wasn't normal. It's understandable why he uses humor to cover this up. There's also the possibility that he didn't come to terms with his sexuality until later even though DA2 implies that he had been involved with men during his time in the Circle. If you think about it, he tells you that most men aren't so 'open' in declaring their interest for other men, which leads me to believe that Anders may have attempted to openly express his interest in men, but was most likely shot down. At this point, there would've been no reason for him to blurt out his love for the guys every chance he gets.

Especially when you consider that Thedas is largely heterosexual and unlike his straight counterparts, he doesn't have the luxury of knowing if a guy's interested in him.

Modifié par Trophonius, 21 avril 2011 - 03:48 .

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

You're right that some people's preferences will never change, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to a lot of people.

I'm not saying that people's preferences never change.  I'm saying they never change because of some magical epiphany that gender is meaningless.  On the Retarded Ideas scale of 1 to 10, that's a divide by zero error.

[TEWR]

Miri1984 wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time.

For the record, bisexual or homosexual men do not, as a rule, flirt with every other man they come across. It's not a means of disproving his preferences.

That the man never flirts with a belching dwarf, a brooding pariah or his commanding officer doesn't make me conclude he was irreversibly straight.

So a gay or bisexual man wouldn't even jokingly say something flirtatious with one of his closest friends?  Hell i have gay friends who have, being jokingly flirtatious, called me cute. I refuse to believe Anders' type of character would not make a joke like that with his best friend (something you can be as a male warden).

Even having a passing comment like that in awakenings and his bisexuality would not have come as a complete surprise in DA2.

Except that as soon as Anders dared to slightly suggest that he might like the company of fellow trouser wearers in DA2 the OMG BIOWARE IS INFECTING US WITH THE GAY comments started. 

And it only came as a complete surprise to people who were EXPECTING HIM TO BE STRAIGHT. And why were people doing that? He'd never claimed to be. People I meet on the street do NOT as a rule say "Hi, my name is Gerald and I'm bisexual."

Granted, it would be nice sometimes if they did, but they DON'T.

to be fair, I thought he was going to be straight at first, but eventually said "I can see him being bi."


And believe you me, if people just flat out told you their sexual orientation, humanity might be better off. Or we'd know everyone and what gender they like to bang, and our heads would explode from information overload.

[nightscrawl]

Viyu wrote...

In Awakening Ohgren makes a phallic joke about Templars poking their "swords" at Anders, to which Anders responds with "Ew."

I think your first mistake was taking seriously anything that Oghren and Anders said to each other in party banter.

Anders was a retcon, but I don't think this is a bad thing, or that it was done badly. You can still see some of his old Awakenings personality, but it's very subdued. He's more serious and mature now, which he has to be given the circumstances. Indeed, you can deal with a retcon in one of two ways: you can either embrace it and find ways to explain it (as I prefer to do), or you can lessen your enjoyment of the game by finding fault with one of it's major characters (as you do.)

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And believe you me, if people just flat out told you their sexual orientation, humanity might be better off. Or we'd know everyone and what gender they like to bang, and our heads would explode from information overload.

Yeah, because people are never hated or discriminated against just for who they are, or anything. Right?

Modifié par nightscrawl, 21 avril 2011 - 03:36 .

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You're right that some people's preferences will never change, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to a lot of people.

I'm not saying that people's preferences never change.  I'm saying they never change because of some magical epiphany that gender is meaningless.  On the Retarded Ideas scale of 1 to 10, that's a divide by zero error.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Humanity and how they act in any fashion cannot be predicted. To say they "never" change is like saying humanity is predictable.

We're not. If we were, everyone would've known what Hitler was up to from the start back in the day, what he was doing every day, and shot him.

Coincidentally, today is Hitler's birthday.

[TheComfyCat]

Miri1984 wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time.

For the record, bisexual or homosexual men do not, as a rule, flirt with every other man they come across. It's not a means of disproving his preferences.

That the man never flirts with a belching dwarf, a brooding pariah or his commanding officer doesn't make me conclude he was irreversibly straight.

So a gay or bisexual man wouldn't even jokingly say something flirtatious with one of his closest friends?  Hell i have gay friends who have, being jokingly flirtatious, called me cute. I refuse to believe Anders' type of character would not make a joke like that with his best friend (something you can be as a male warden).

Even having a passing comment like that in awakenings and his bisexuality would not have come as a complete surprise in DA2.

Except that as soon as Anders dared to slightly suggest that he might like the company of fellow trouser wearers in DA2 the OMG BIOWARE IS INFECTING US WITH THE GAY comments started. 

And it only came as a complete surprise to people who were EXPECTING HIM TO BE STRAIGHT. And why were people doing that? He'd never claimed to be. People I meet on the street do NOT as a rule say "Hi, my name is Gerald and I'm bisexual."

Granted, it would be nice sometimes if they did, but they DON'T.

The bisexual men I know only mentioned their orientation to me after becoming, erm, involved with me (I'm a woman, in case that matters). In light of that, it makes sense to me that Anders only mentions his sexuality to Hawke becuase of his interest in him.

(It annoys me that he doesn't mention Karl to F!Hawke though. It's like the game's letting us pretend that Anders might be straight in the F!Hawke universe... but he still seems so, well, not straight to me.)

[Miri1984]

@The Etheral Writer Redux And if people did do that there'd always be someone ready to punch them for it as soon as they did. Which is possibly one of the reasons why Anders doesn't mention it in DA:A. I mean, Gaider has said that homosexuality in Thedas is probably less of a problem than it is here, but the NORM is still heterosexuality, and perhaps Anders just didn't particularly want the Warden Commander to think he was bisexual as WELL as a possible templar murdering apostate.

[Nepenthe87]

Miri1984 wrote...

Nepenthe87 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time.

For the record, bisexual or homosexual men do not, as a rule, flirt with every other man they come across. It's not a means of disproving his preferences.

That the man never flirts with a belching dwarf, a brooding pariah or his commanding officer doesn't make me conclude he was irreversibly straight.

So a gay or bisexual man wouldn't even jokingly say something flirtatious with one of his closest friends?  Hell i have gay friends who have, being jokingly flirtatious, called me cute. I refuse to believe Anders' type of character would not make a joke like that with his best friend (something you can be as a male warden).

Even having a passing comment like that in awakenings and his bisexuality would not have come as a complete surprise in DA2.

Except that as soon as Anders dared to slightly suggest that he might like the company of fellow trouser wearers in DA2 the OMG BIOWARE IS INFECTING US WITH THE GAY comments started. 

And it only came as a complete surprise to people who were EXPECTING HIM TO BE STRAIGHT. And why were people doing that? He'd never claimed to be. People I meet on the street do NOT as a rule say "Hi, my name is Gerald and I'm bisexual."

Granted, it would be nice sometimes if they did, but they DON'T.

Even though he never just came out and said "I'm straight!" there is more dialogue in the game to suggest that he prefers to sleep with women and showed no inclination to men. I inferred he was straight from his gravitation toward women because that was all the evidence I was given in game.

And nowhere was i saying any type of anti-gay sentiment or saying bioware is shoving a pro-gay agenda down our throats. just becuase i was surprised that Anders' is gay does not mean I am homophobic. do not put words into my mouth.

My surprise at Anders' being bisexual came from there being no dialogue or notion that he was bisexual and in fact a lot of dialogue to support quite the opposite.

Excuse me for seeing a guy hit on women and assume he likes women.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 21 avril 2011 - 03:43 .

[The Angry One]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You're right that some people's preferences will never change, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to a lot of people.

I'm not saying that people's preferences never change.  I'm saying they never change because of some magical epiphany that gender is meaningless.  On the Retarded Ideas scale of 1 to 10, that's a divide by zero error.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Humanity and how they act in any fashion cannot be predicted. To say they "never" change is like saying humanity is predictable.

We're not. If we were, everyone would've known what Hitler was up to from the start back in the day, what he was doing every day, and shot him.

Coincidentally, today is Hitler's birthday.

Speaking for myself I mean in a past tense, some people have gone through their lives and never changed their preferences (or at least never made it known).
But in the end people and their personalities will always be varied.

[nekhbet]

Rifneno wrote...

Almost as much of a laugh as claiming one suddenly has an epiphany that we should all love based on what's inside and that gender is meaningless.  That's absurd.  And frankly, fairly self-righteous since it implies that everyone straight or gay is just being shallow.

Whether it's nature or nurture, people do have an innate sexual preference.  Sometimes more than one.  That doesn't mean it's a conscious decision that "gender doesn't matter."  I've got a friend of 13 years, we know each other better than I have with any woman I've ever been involved with.  We have extremely similar personalities, and agree on every major social issue including being vehemently in favor of equality for gays.  I can safely say I'd rather have a root canal than "hit that," and that has nothing to do with me being too shallow to realize "gender doesn't matter."  It has to do with an innate mental setting that no form of medical science or religious treatment has ever successfully changed in anyone.

It's not absurd at all. It happens to people all the time. It's exactly how bisexuality works at core. Even if people sometimes identify more as gay and sometimes more as straight. Bisexual people might even make a conscious choice of picking a partner based on their gender. I've done it, just because I could and wanted a change from my ex. Some just go with the flow and look for a person they like and don't care about their genitals.

Point is that pretty much anything goes when we're talking bisexuality, and that's why it's misunderstood and sometimes even despised by both straight and gay people. People who identify specifically as gay or straight have it different; it's possible to also have solid sexual preferences and that gives a very different perspective to sexuality in general.


--


Sorry if I'm a bit ranty here, but I'm a little insulted by some of the comments in the topic. It's weird and not very fun to hear that my sexuality doesn't exist or isn't possible or something else that I know is complete bull****. It's something worth taking personally, if there's a chance to clear up misconceptions.

Modifié par nekhbet, 21 avril 2011 - 03:43 .

[TEWR]

Miri1984 wrote...

@The Etheral Writer Redux And if people did do that there'd always be someone ready to punch them for it as soon as they did. Which is possibly one of the reasons why Anders doesn't mention it in DA:A. I mean, Gaider has said that homosexuality in Thedas is probably less of a problem than it is here, but the NORM is still heterosexuality, and perhaps Anders just didn't particularly want the Warden Commander to think he was bisexual as WELL as a possible templar murdering apostate.

Agreed. Anders never openly stated "I'm just here for the women. Sorry fellas". He said he'd like a nice woman, but that's a whole different thing altogether. So his bisexuality isn't a retcon.


well, it is to those who can't accept it as not being one because it isn't.  

[Miri1984]

@Nepenthe87 He does like women. He just happens to like men as well. If he hadn't mentioned ANY preference, had gone through the entire game without hinting at flirting, would you now be complaining that he was an LI?

"But he didn't flirt with anyone in Awakenings! I thought he was asexual!"

[TEWR]

nekhbet wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Almost as much of a laugh as claiming one suddenly has an epiphany that we should all love based on what's inside and that gender is meaningless.  That's absurd.  And frankly, fairly self-righteous since it implies that everyone straight or gay is just being shallow.

Whether it's nature or nurture, people do have an innate sexual preference.  Sometimes more than one.  That doesn't mean it's a conscious decision that "gender doesn't matter."  I've got a friend of 13 years, we know each other better than I have with any woman I've ever been involved with.  We have extremely similar personalities, and agree on every major social issue including being vehemently in favor of equality for gays.  I can safely say I'd rather have a root canal than "hit that," and that has nothing to do with me being too shallow to realize "gender doesn't matter."  It has to do with an innate mental setting that no form of medical science or religious treatment has ever successfully changed in anyone.

It's not absurd at all. It happens to people all the time. It's exactly how bisexuality works at core. Even if people sometimes identify more as gay and sometimes more as straight. Bisexual people might even make a conscious choice of picking a partner based on their gender. I've done it, just because I could and wanted a change from my ex. Some just go with the flow and look for a person they like and don't care about their genitals.

Point is that pretty much anything goes when we're talking bisexuality, and that's why it's misunderstood and sometimes even despised by both straight and gay people. People who identify specifically as gay or straight have it different; it's possible to also have solid sexual preferences and that gives a very different perspective to sexuality in general.


--


Sorry if I'm a bit ranty here, but I'm a little insulted by some of the comments in the topic. It's weird and not very fun to hear that my sexuality doesn't exist or isn't possible or something else that I know is complete bull****. It's something worth taking personally, if there's a chance to clear up misconceptions.

I hope none of my comments have insulted you Mr. or Mrs. Nekhbet.