318 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Nepenthe87 He does like women. He just happens to like men as well. If he hadn't mentioned ANY preference, had gone through the entire game without hinting at flirting, would you now be complaining that he was an LI?

"But he didn't flirt with anyone in Awakenings! I thought he was asexual!"

Well, he does now have Justice in him, and Justice can't partake in sex. He can **** with Anders' mind though.

*goes off to write fanfic about an asexual Anders*

[The Angry One]

In the end, here's how it worked for me with regards to sexuality.

Awakening: It seems Anders is a bit of a flirt with women.

DA2: Apparently he likes men too. Okay. Moving on.

[Dante Angelo]

Am I the only one who has realized that DA:2 Anders & DA:A Anders are two different people. DA:A Anders was killed by ser pounce alot. DA:2 Anders was DA:A Anders's roommate and had entered the room just as DA:A Anders had been slain by ser pounce alot. Unfortunately Ser Pounce Alot had escaped the scene already. DA:2 Anders swore that would Justice would be served. Thus DA:2 Anders decided hunt down Ser Pounce Alot and defeat him once and for all. DA:2 Anders confronted Ser Pounce Alot and found out that Ser Pounce Alot had become possessed by Justice. DA:2 Anders defeated Ser Pounce Alot in single combat but was possessed by Justice in the process.

And that is the craziest thing I have ever written

[nightscrawl]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

(It annoys me that he doesn't mention Karl to F!Hawke though. It's like the game's letting us pretend that Anders might be straight in the F!Hawke universe... but he still seems so, well, not straight to me.)

Why does he seem "not straight" to you?

Why does no see that NONE of the companions (except Isabela I guess) have an orientation apart from the gender of Hawke? If Hawke is a female, Anders and Fenris are straight, and Merrill is gay. If Hawke is a male, Anders and Fenris are gay, and Merrill is straight. Other than Isabela, nowhere is it implied that anyone is bisexual.

This is a game with fake romances. In order to appeal to the widest selection of players they went beyond their rigid system in DAO (I'm sure there were girls who wanted Morrigan and guys who wanted Alistair after all) to have the romances be available to everyone regardless of gender. This is logical game design!


(Btw in my single play as a guy I did romance Anders just to see, since people made such a huge deal out of it on these forums.)

[Sherbet Lemon]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

Even though he never just came out and said "I'm straight!" there is more dialogue in the game to suggest that he prefers to sleep with women and showed no inclination to men. I inferred from his sexuality toward women because that was all the evidence I was given in game.

*cut for irrelevance*

My surprise at Anders' being bisexual came from there being no dialogue or notion that he was bisexual and in fact a lot of dialogue to support quite the opposite.

Excuse me for seeing a guy hit on women and assume he likes women.

Except what you see could be only part of a story.  We see what we want to see and one of things our society likes to conceptualize and propagate is the notion that gender is this binary/sexuality, either or thing.  We like to think in terms of black and white or in this instance, pink and blue. 

I'm not prone to giving personal information out on the internet (I'm really not and I'm probably going to regret typing this in five minutes), but I feel this discussion warrents this admission and since you all are strangers to me I guess I'm okay with saying it. 

Listen-I love my husband and he is the most wonderful man I have ever met.  But I'm also bisexual and not only that but not openly bi.  Only two people know and that's my husband and my father.  Truth be told, I prefer women though I do like men.  You would never, ever know that if you knew me in real life.

If you'd ask me five years ago, I would have said without question or hesitancy, that I was straight.  I now know that wasn't the case.  Again, what you see is not what is always the case.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 21 avril 2011 - 03:57 .

[ipgd]

Viyu wrote...

Hello, friends! Today is a review of a particular character in Dragon Age II-- Anders. Anders is incredibly out of character in DA2. As soon as I saw him, I could tell immediately another writer handled the character without any research needed. I do not mean to be rude, but it does not seem like Hepler did her homework. She essetially took the cowardly comic relief in Awakening, and for no logical reason, turned him into the "sexy, tortured", brooding anti hero willing to martyr himself by the second installment (click the link, you'll thank me later ).

This in particular irritates me and I've already gone over the Twilight comparisons at length, so I'll just quote what I've written on the subject before:

oh boy more twilight arguments

I think it's sort of sad that a slew of perfectly decent literary tropes have been effectively outlawed from ever being used again just because some ****ty, masturbatory teen abstinence porn novel executed them poorly. It's not like Twilight invented "NO WE SHOULDN'T BANG BECAUSE I KNOW I'M A DOUCHEBAG".

The problem with how Twilight handled it is that Edward is a neutered vegan prettyboy whose actions do absolutely nothing to suggest he's actually any danger to Bella at all. The book expects the reader to take him at his word that he's a heartless killer while providing nothing at all to inspire any sort of conflict or urgency; he just limps around, sparkling ineffectually, talking about how awful he is and doing nothing at all. The worst thing he does is basically stalk Bella, and has all of the negative implications of that entirely ignored and/or twisted into a disturbing romanticism.

But even then, that wasn't what made it bad -- what really makes Twilight awful is that it has absolutely no self-awareness whatsoever. The creepy stalker/simpering doormat dynamic between Edward and Bella even could have been interesting if the book acknowledged that in any way, and actually explored their unhealthy codependency with cognizance that it was unhealthy codependency; instead it's extolled as some kind of virtuous True Love without any irony. And that's where the book really gets creepy, because then you can tell that the author seriously and wholly does not understand any of the Unfortunate Implications of anything she's written.

It's funny, because the Edward/Bella romance is certainly very dysfunctional -- but the book spends its entire time focusing on possibly the one part of their relationship that is never, ever an issue. Honestly, Twilight probably could have been good if it had skipped the hackneyed baby plotline and explored their relationship once Edward's vampirism was no longer an issue, forcing them to deal with all of the things that actually make their romance self-destructive (the obsessive stalking, Bella's submissiveness, the age gap, the fact Edward is a 100 year old virgin, etc.).  It has a pretty excellent setup for a deconstruction of rushed teenage romances and power imbalances in relationships and it's completely squandered by an incompetant writer who doesn't even realize how fundamentally toxic (in the "these people are too ****ed up to be ****ing" sense) the romance she's writing is.

Yes, Anders's romance has the same general trope, but it's handled so differently and so much better that I can't help but wonder if the people who make these negative comparisons have any why Twilight was actually bad beyond the idea that they're supposed to hate it and everthing it did because everyone else does. The trope itself had nothing to do with why Twilight's romance was bad -- it was the book's failure to delve beneath the shoddy veneer of romanticism and examine the gruesome train wreck that comprises the heart of their relationship. Anders is written in complete acknowledgement of the train wreck; it doesn't beat you over the head with the idea that you're supposed to think what he does is romantic. The game knows he's codependant, hypocritical and capriciously schizophrenic. Anders actually has legitimate reasons to think he will damage Hawke, and most importantly, he actually does.

The difference between what Twilight did and what DA2 did was Twilight showed you its romance and still failed to make Edward and Bella's premature declarations of love believable -- and all through the book it enforces the idea that you're supposed to think they have a perfect and enviable true love. There are no gaps to fill in, we are present for all of their interactions, and it falls flat because what we see doesn't support the narrative the author is forcing on the reader. It deliberately discourages interpretations.

DA2 neither shows all of Hawke's interactions with Anders, nor does it enforce a strict interpretation of what the romance is supposed to be. Anders says what he feels, informing the viewer that there is a year gap where he and Hawke had more interactions than is shown in the game (YMMV as to the ease or satisfaction of mentally filling this gap yourself), and leaves it up to the player to decide whether or not they are in true wub or an extremely unhealthy codependent relationship tempered by the fact Anders is mentally unstable and prone to obsessive behavior. Stuff like the "I'm hungry" line allows the player to acknowledge and deflect the fact Anders is being a horrible sap. The only place I really think it failed was the "I WANT YOU HERE UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE" line.

Meanwhile, two weeks into the timeline of Twilight, Bella has already decided that Edward is her soul mate (a conclusion I'm pretty sure she arrives on the second or third time she ever sees him) and is begging him to turn her into a vampire. And the reader is never given any indication why. Edward's infatuation is a little more clear (he wants to eat her), but then the fact he is a one hundred year old ****ing virgin and this is the only woman he has ever loved makes it just as confusing as Bella's -- what is it about Bella that makes her so desirable that he suddenly wants to end his apparently century-long celibacy?

Meyer gives the reader a couple of weeks worth of interactions, and when the reader asks "this is it?", she responds with three more books of "Yup, isn't it wonderful?!"; DA2 gives the player a couple of conversations, and when the player asks "this is it?", DA2 says "no".

NOW MOVING ON

I am sure many of you are wondering: "What exactly is so out-of-character about Anders in Dragon Age II?" Observe. During banter of Awakening, it is revealed that Anders has a cowardly look-out-for number-one philosophy, believing that the chantry is fine so long as it's not after him. One of his conversations with Justice candidly suggests that he "avoids" oppression, he does not intend to "struggle" against it.


If you speak to Wynne in Awakening, it is also revealed that while he hates chantry oversight, he believes that the chantry is neccessary and shows concern over mages trying to dissolve the it. He believes that if mages were simply allowed to run amuck it'd be "a recipe for disaster", which is ironically similar to Fenris' opinion.

So how did Anders overcome fear towards mage freedom? How is such a "slack jawed"  coward convinced to challenge the chantry in spite of the "difficulty" it would pose, as Anders himself puts it in Awakening? Because while Justice believes apathy is weakness, Anders believes death is also a weakness, and originally was never willing to die for such a cause. Because no transition was ever made between Awakening and DAII Anders, this creates the effect of character derailment within the character, not character development.

Hepler's short story suggests his bitterness was partly due to being ripped apart from his family at  age12. But it was hardly convincing. If that was enough for him to want revolution, he probably wouldn't have been supportive of the circle by the time he was an adult in Awakening.

Have you never changed your mind about something? Yes, Anders is initially opposed to the idea of liberating mages. It's later explicitly stated that he changes his mind. Nowhere is it indicated that Anders has such a strong attachment to the Circle system that it would break his character (in fact, the way he repeatedly escapes the Circle, even after being punished with solitary confinement for an entire year prior to after his last escape attempt, suggest he has some deep issues with it). The entire point of his conversation with Wynne is that he dislikes the Circle, but sees the alternative (certain chaos) as worse. After spending time with Justice, he is convinced that it might be worth it.

The whole thing is pretty heavily foreshadowed in banter. Here are some of the relevant ones:

    * Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
    * Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
    * Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
    * Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
    * Anders: But what do they want from mages?
    * Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence.

    * Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
    * Justice: I said no such thing.
    * Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
    * Justice: I have no such desires.
    * Anders: You must have some desires...
    * Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

    * Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
    * Justice: I should certainly hope not.
    * Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
    * Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
    * Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
    * Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

Spirits' relation to demons, and particularly Justice's, becomes a big point in Anders's development in DA2.

    * Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
    * Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
    * Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
    * Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
    * Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
    * Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.

    * Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
    * Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
    * Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
    * Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
    * Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
    * Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

Justice makes it very clear here that he is opposed to the Circle. He believes Anders should be fighting it. He has enough conviction here that it's pretty reasonable to conclude that he might continue to try to convince Anders of this, and eventually succeed.

    * Velanna: What will happen to you once Kristoff's body has fully decayed?
    * Justice: I do not know. Perhaps I will be drawn back to the Fade?
    * Velanna: Or remain here, bound to the tiny motes of dust that once were Kristoff.
    * Justice: Do you think that's possible?
    * Velanna: I know less about this than you. How securely is your spirit bound to this body? Can you leave it?
    * Justice: I could, if I chose to.
    * Velanna: Do you want to leave it?
    * Justice: I... do not know anymore.

    * Velanna: It seems you actually like this world.
    * Justice: I do. I have had experiences I cannot even begin to explain.
    * Velanna: A pity that you'll soon fall apart.
    * Justice: I could find and inhabit another corpse. A female body might offer a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
    * Velanna: If I die in your presence, you stay away from my body, you hear me?
    * Justice: Your objection is noted.

Here Justice seems to be indicating he is becoming attached to the mortal world. He even seems to be actively planning to find another host after Kristoff's corpse becomes uninhabitable.

    * Nathaniel: Will you ever need to switch bodies, Justice?
    * Justice: I did not even wish to possess this one. Why would I switch to another?
    * Nathaniel: You might need to. Unless you wish to look even more obviously like a corpse.
    * Justice: I...would prefer not to think of it.

    * Justice: This... thing you spoke of. Switching bodies.
    * Nathaniel: Not a favorite topic of yours, I take it?
    * Justice: Would such a thing be permitted? Would it not be considered... abominable?
    * Nathaniel: If they're dead, it's not as if they need the body, Justice.
    * Justice: But I can still feel the man who once lived. I know his body, his... It is not just a body.
    * Nathaniel: That's...good, isn't it? I'd rather you felt that way.
    * Justice: Perhaps you are right.

    * Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
    * Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
    * Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?
    * Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?
    * Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.
    * Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.

Here you see Nathaniel planting the very idea to take a living host in Justice's head. At the end of the banter, he suggests he's even considering the idea.

It also helps that, you know, the other character in the very banter you cite now occupies his body and mind. That's a pretty big character consistency.

Other Noteworthy Plotholes:

► Why does Anders constantly condemn Merill for being a blood mage when he can become a blood mage himself in Awakening? Your Warden can actually address his blood mage talents, should he learn the specialization.

Have you never done something you later recognized as wrong? Obviously, the only reason Anders can become a Blood Mage is for gameplay reasons. You can assume that after he merges with Justice he no longer uses Blood Magic in the same way I choose to not knife people in the face despite my ability to do so.

►If Anders can "die" at the end of Awakening like Nathaniel can point out in DA2, how could the Wardens force him to get rid of Ser-Pounce-A-Lot if they all thought Anders was dead? This seems like a clumsy attempt to get Anders to brood against the Wardens for getting rid of the cat, but without considering certain endings.

It's a handwave to get him back into the game.

► The bisexuality angle. It'd be like if someone magically wrote Zevran and Leilianna to be straight. In Awakening Ohgren makes a phallic joke about Templars poking their "swords" at Anders, to which Anders responds
 with "Ew."  No connection is made between how Anders could go from seeing homosexuality as "gross", to something that is okay. Edit: But the most telling example is how Anders never flirts with male wardens like he does female wardens. My issue is not that Anders IS bi by DA2, it's just that it seems unreasonable that Karl was his first due to the chronological impracticality. If anything it would have made more sense if Hawke was his first male love interest because the time lapse is more chronologically accurate.

1. Responding with "ew" to that joke speaks more to his opinions on rape than homosexuality.
2. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There are any number of reasons why Anders might choose to openly flirt with women and not men, despite being attracted to both. He could have perceived the Warden as straight and figured he shouldn't bother, he could have a preference for women, whatever. There can be arguments made as to whether or not Anders's bisexuality was intended from the beginning, but the way it was written in doesn't contradict his character in Awakening at all. Even in DA2, he does approach and treat male and female PCs differently.

► Anders doesn't know where Justice ends and he begins, and there supposedly isn't a way to separate the two. That's not how spirit posession works in the original Dragon Age mythos. Just look at Connor. You don't become fused to the spirit/demon when you allow yourself to be willingly posessed. That also begs the question: Why aren't Justice and Anders separated in the fade like Connor is? And why isn't Anders tranquil after you kill him in the fade?

Because Justice isn't in the Fade. Connor's demon is controlling him from the Fade; Justice is present within Anders's body, and has merged with his mind. Their merging is different from a standard demonic possession.

Why he or Merrill don't become Tranquil when killed in Feynriel's dream isn't explained. I won't bother to speculate.

► Justice was supposed to serve the order for many years. So how exactly does he posess Anders, leave the Wardens, flee to Kirkwall, and get jiggy with Karl merely a year after the blight? Awakening occurs 2-6 months after it, if I remember correctly. Now I know DA2 is supposed to be based off a possible ending for Anders. But in practice this couldn't have been possible in any of the epilogues. In DA2 Anders implies that Justice is still posessing Kristoff's corpse during the time of posession. But the endings where Justice isn't killed/dies either has him serving the Wardens or fixing up graves in the blackmarsh--but that's provided he's never recruited, and never meets Anders to begin with.
The problem with creating Anders' DA2 origins from only of one the "supposedly" possible endings in Awakening is that it implies that there is some sort of "one true ending" – that people's decisions with him in Awakening don't "really" matter if they don't fit the mold of the DA2 writers. If you decide to hand Anders over to the Templars when Alistair arrives, and never make him into a Grey Warden? Retconned. If you decide to hand him over to the Templars during his personal mission? Retconned. Decisions are supposed to be the backbone of Bioware's signature gameplay but they go ignored. This is why I hold BioWare responsible for game's continuity errors, because they should have considered satisfying all possible endings for Anders, or left him a oneshot. People (usually) don't pick up these games for their choices not to matter by the next game.

Anders was together with Karl long before the events of Awakening. He was his first sexual relationship in the Circle. It is implied that they were intimate many years ago, and may no longer be sexually active, but are still friends.

The epilogue end cards are handwaved, but this isn't specific to Anders. Obviously, they cannot satisfy all endings; they wanted to make Anders a significant character in DA2, so they had to bull**** the cards. A dead Anders couldn't have blown up the chantry. An Anders not possessed by Justice would have needed all of his dialogue rewritten. Considering every choice is not even remotely possible and expecting that is unrealistic.



i haven't even read the rest of this thread time to catch up and ****** further

[Dante Angelo]

nightscrawl wrote...


Why does no see that NONE of the companions (except Isabela I guess) have an orientation apart from the gender of Hawke? If Hawke is a female, Anders and Fenris are straight, and Merrill is gay. If Hawke is a male, Anders and Fenris are gay, and Merrill is straight. Other than Isabela, nowhere is it implied that anyone is bisexual.

Actually Fenris is BI if your a male Hawke

Modifié par Dante Angelo, 21 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[whitless256]

I realize I'm about to make a statement that I'm too lazy to look up the exact proof for... and I realize that this will be cause for those who disagree with me to totally disregard my comments, but...

Zevran prefered women. Zevran was still bi. Zevran, who prefered women, still fell in love with my male Warden. Zevran also told many a story about sleeping with women. He never told any stories about sleeping with men. In fact, he was in love with a woman before you met him. He still fell in love with my male Warden.

And also for clarity's sake, a brief summary of Anders' and Karl's relationship.

They were apprentices together in the Ferelden Circle and that was when their relationship took place. Later, Karl was transfered to the Kirkwall Circle to work on a project, the specifics of which Anders will tell you, but I've forgotten. Like someone upthread said, I don't get why people think Anders and Karl's relationship was during DA2...

[autumnyte]

nightscrawl wrote...

If Hawke is a male, Anders and Fenris are gay, and Merrill is straight. Other than Isabela, nowhere is it implied that anyone is bisexual. 

I don't like labeling anyone's sexuality, but I will point out that both Anders and Fenris do come across as bisexual if you are playing as a male Hawke.

If you aren't in an active romance with Fenris during Act 3, he gets together with Isabella. Anders and Isabella make passing reference to a past sexual encounter at the Black Pearl as well. 

[Rifneno]

nekhbet wrote...

It's not absurd at all. It happens to people all the time. It's exactly how bisexuality works at core. Even if people sometimes identify more as gay and sometimes more as straight. Bisexual people might even make a conscious choice of picking a partner based on their gender. I've done it, just because I could and wanted a change from my ex. Some just go with the flow and look for a person they like and don't care about their genitals.

And my point is, they could not do that if they weren't innately set to swing either way.

I too tired to find the quote, but someone brought up earlier that Anders in DA2 never mentions Karl being his former lover if Hawke is female.  This is another part of the reason I find the whole thing contrived.  It seems like Anders' sexuality depends on Hawke.  I know the obvious response, but also consider that Anders tells her "I feel like I could tell you anything and you wouldn't judge me."

Dante Angelo wrote...

Am I the only one who has realized that DA:2 Anders & DA:A Anders are two different people. DA:A Anders was killed by ser pounce alot. DA:2 Anders was DA:A Anders's roommate and had entered the room just as DA:A Anders had been slain by ser pounce alot. Unfortunately Ser Pounce Alot had escaped the scene already. DA:2 Anders swore that would Justice would be served. Thus DA:2 Anders decided hunt down Ser Pounce Alot and defeat him once and for all. DA:2 Anders confronted Ser Pounce Alot and found out that Ser Pounce Alot had become possessed by Justice. DA:2 Anders defeated Ser Pounce Alot in single combat but was possessed by Justice in the process.

And that is the craziest thing I have ever written

....  Maker, I hope so.  *backs away*

Lastly, it's hilarious when you think about how this started as a great thoughtful analysis of the story, and we all saw a bit in it about sex and just ran the thread off the tracks and into a brick wall at 150 MPH.

[MikoDoll]

Forgive all the quoting, everyone has a lot of interesting points.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll agree that it could've at least been shown how he spirals into this. But if you think about it, isn't that what happened? At first he only fled to Kirkwall to be free of the Wardens and help refugees. [/quote]

Just got through reading Anders' prolouge ( http://na.llnet.biow...ries/anders.pdf )

I'd say Anders was already written pretty out of character. I say this as respectfully as possible but he had none of the reservations for his life when supposedly merging, that he'd had in Awakening. Despite dragging the Warden on a personal quest to retrieve his phylactery, he didn't seem to remember/care about the fact it hadn't yet been recovered and was going to try standing out to be a rebel? That's like deciding to break into a bank and giving the bankteller your address.  Second to be "free" of the Wardens? I was like "Oh come on!" He left the Wardens supposedly because they got rid of his cat. How'd they tell him to get rid of the cat when he'd used a dead corpse as a decoy and made a run for it? Nowhere during Awakening did that actually happen, and it'd have required Anders to stay with the Wardens sometime longer for these sorts of disputes to have actually emerged. At the time he'd left, Pouncealot was welcome and IIRC it was Anders who'd been considering that maybe he should find him a better home.




[quote]
Then he wanted to rescue his first love Karl (who could've been a part of the Ferelden Circle before going to Kirkwall). Afterwards, that's when he started to change.  [/quote]


His first love? Ok.  after looking over the fact you cannot romance Anders if a guy, and Anders will make disclaimers he doesn't love the Warden romantically if a guy when you come back to save the Vigil, so I don't think Karl was the spark that would ignite a realization he was bi.  Considerind that Anders said his relationship with Karl started in the Circle, and he hadn't been caught and forced back since Awakening, the idea was...implausible. And, if him and Karl were in such a comitted relationship why did he flirt with women, and if it was because he wasn't serious, why didn't he also flirt with men. Again, I think it would've been best if Hawke had simply been Anders' first potential male love interest.


[quote]

Was it 12? I thought it was 6. Either way, it's understandable that if you're ripped away from your family for the rest of your life because you have something that is both gift and curse, you're going to harbor some resentment to the established power that did this to you.  [/quote]

But wanting to go as far as destroy the Circle and for mages to run free was not what he'd wanted in Awakening. He states this. But Hepler's version of Anders suddenly desires the removal of the Circle well before he merged with Justice. It is the desire for the Circle's removal that is in part what influences his decision. It was not a symptom of Justice merging with Anders.



[quote]
[quote]

►If Anders can "die" at the end of Awakening like Nathaniel can point out in DA2, how could the Wardens force him to get rid of Ser-Pounce-A-Lot if they all thought Anders was dead? This seems like a clumsy attempt to get Anders to brood against the Wardens for getting rid of the cat, but without considering certain endings.

[/quote]

Does he still say that even if he "died"? [/quote]

Yes (    )  actually it may only be IF he died that you get this dialouge. Still, even if he hadn't  he'd been IIRC, trying to find a better home for Pounce-a-lot.



[quote]
I think the "ew" is meant to more reinforce the fact that rape is an atrocious act. Would you want me to shove my sword up there without your consent? [/quote]

Granted, but also note that Anders will say something like "Did I ever tell you I love you butnotinthatwayLOL" if your a guy whereas, I don't think he does this if you're female AND he openly flirts with females. Again, I don't think Karl initiated a relationship with Anders. Why would he flirt with women if he were so dedicated to Karl? Why. if it could be explained that he wasn't serious, did he not flirt with both men and women? And most importantly why did he add disclaimers with the purpose of making sure another guy didn't think he was interested in *that* way, with no such issues with women. I still stand by my opinion Hawke, if anyone should've been Anders' first potential male love interest if anyone. Digging up Karl just seemed like it was thrown in for brooding and angst.

[quote] I don't think so. Anders confirmed that he'd like a nice girl yes, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't fall in love with a guy. [/quote]

Again, why would he go through the trouble of saying to a male warden "I don't love you in THAT" way, but not a female warden? Again I think there are some reservations Anders had with same sex relationships DA2 would've needed to iron out a bit if that should be done. A real touchy issue in this day and age.



[quote]Now in Awakening I remember that you could say something to him and he'd go "That's so sweet of you! I'm all a-tingle." This was almost certainly a joke (it's DA:O:A Anders), but it also seems to have a level of flirtation in it. Now if we could flirt with him and he said "Sorry I'm straight" then you'd have a point to this. [/quote]

Again telling a man "I don't love you in that way" but not a woman would also imply it.

[quote]

Justice was pulled out from the Fade entirely, making Anders and Connor two different cases. Some other poster pointed out the key details before me. [/quote]

It's stated Anders and Justice did the possession in the Fade:  ( http://na.llnet.biow...ries/anders.pdf )



[quote][quote]
► Justice was supposed to serve the order for many years. So how exactly does he posess Anders, leave the Wardens, flee to Kirkwall, and get jiggy with Karl merely a year after the blight? Awakening occurs 2-6 months after it, if I remember correctly. Now I know DA2 is supposed to be based off a possible ending for Anders. But in practice this couldn't have been possible in any of the epilogues. In DA2 Anders implies that Justice is still posessing Kristoff's corpse during the time of posession. But the endings where Justice isn't killed/dies either has him serving the Wardens or fixing up graves in the blackmarsh--but that's provided he's never recruited, and never meets Anders to begin with.
[/quote]
 have the devs even given a confirmed timeline of events? I don't think they have. the DA wiki only has timelines because that's what they think to be true. I also don't remember hearing anything about the bolded sentence. Is there a youtube video of this perhaps?

[/quote]

Doesn't really matter. Years is plural. Act 1 occurs 1 year after the Blight. Hawke and Bethany/Carver are in servitude for 1 year before meeting Anders the year prior they'd fled from Ostagar and made it to Kirkwall to escape the Blight while it was still active. So understanding that Anders and Justice joined well after the Archdemon, the most they could've been fighting Darkspawn before going to Kirkwall was a year and even that would be using very slippy chronology. If Justice was to serve the order for many years, then naturally he couldn't have only served it for one during the Blight and left. Heck "many" implies more than having even served two before leaving the Wardens. It may be a stretch to have made Anders appear in Act 1 but given what they'd noted about Justice he couldn't have came along until Act II.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 21 avril 2011 - 04:08 .

[The Angry One]

MikoDoll wrote...

His first love? Ok.  after looking over the fact you cannot romance Anders if a guy, and Anders will make disclaimers he doesn't love the Warden romantically if a guy when you come back to save the Vigil, so I don't think Karl was the spark that would ignite a realization he was bi.  Considerind that Anders said his relationship with Karl started in the Circle, and he hadn't been caught and forced back since Awakening, the idea was...implausible. And, if him and Karl were in such a comitted relationship why did he flirt with women, and if it was because he wasn't serious, why didn't he also flirt with men. Again, I think it would've been best if Hawke had simply been Anders' first potential male love interest.

You can't romance Anders in Awakening as a guy, girl or giant octopus (what, you haven't played the giant octopus edition of Awakening?).
A couple of flirty lines does not equal romance.

[TEWR]

His first love? Ok. after looking over the fact you cannot romance Anders if a guy, and Anders will make disclaimers he doesn't love the Warden romantically if a guy when you come back to save the Vigil, so I don't think Karl was the spark that would ignite a realization he was bi. Considerind that Anders said his relationship with Karl started in the Circle, and he hadn't been caught and forced back since Awakening, the idea was...implausible. And, if him and Karl were in such a comitted relationship why did he flirt with women, and if it was because he wasn't serious, why didn't he also flirt with men. Again, I think it would've been best if Hawke had simply been Anders' first potential male love interest.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant after the whole Tranquility quest he started to change. At first he was just there to free a friend and stay away from the Wardens. Then I think he started to fight back against the Templars. I wasn't talking about a sexuality change, so sorry if I may have worded that poorly.

It's stated Anders and Justice did the possession in the Fade:

uh... no it isn't. The only mention of the Fade was Anders saying "The Fade, I remember now. I'm a mage."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 avril 2011 - 04:10 .

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

MikoDoll wrote...

His first love? Ok.  after looking over the fact you cannot romance Anders if a guy, and Anders will make disclaimers he doesn't love the Warden romantically if a guy when you come back to save the Vigil, so I don't think Karl was the spark that would ignite a realization he was bi.  Considerind that Anders said his relationship with Karl started in the Circle, and he hadn't been caught and forced back since Awakening, the idea was...implausible. And, if him and Karl were in such a comitted relationship why did he flirt with women, and if it was because he wasn't serious, why didn't he also flirt with men. Again, I think it would've been best if Hawke had simply been Anders' first potential male love interest.

You can't romance Anders in Awakening as a guy, girl or giant octopus (what, you haven't played the giant octopus edition of Awakening?).
A couple of flirty lines does not equal romance.

Hmm.  Now I desperately want to see a giant squid battle a broodmother.  Damn you, TAO!

[MikoDoll]

The Angry One wrote...

MikoDoll wrote...

His first love? Ok.  after looking over the fact you cannot romance Anders if a guy, and Anders will make disclaimers he doesn't love the Warden romantically if a guy when you come back to save the Vigil, so I don't think Karl was the spark that would ignite a realization he was bi.  Considerind that Anders said his relationship with Karl started in the Circle, and he hadn't been caught and forced back since Awakening, the idea was...implausible. And, if him and Karl were in such a comitted relationship why did he flirt with women, and if it was because he wasn't serious, why didn't he also flirt with men. Again, I think it would've been best if Hawke had simply been Anders' first potential male love interest.

You can't romance Anders in Awakening as a guy, girl or giant octopus (what, you haven't played the giant octopus edition of Awakening?).
A couple of flirty lines does not equal romance.

That's what I'd meant to say pretty much. You can't really flirt if a guy from what I've researched thus far at least and Anders goes out of his way to make one of those "i love you but omgnohomo" remarks if a male Warden comes back to the Vigil to save him. 



 

[Miri1984]

@ipgd Your post was what I would have written if I'd had the time. THANK YOU .

[Rinji the Bearded]

MikoDoll wrote...


Just got through reading Anders' prolouge ( http://na.llnet.biow...ries/anders.pdf )

I'd say Anders was already written pretty out of character. I say this as respectfully as possible but he had none of the reservations for his life when supposedly merging, that he'd had in Awakening. Despite dragging the Warden on a personal quest to retrieve his phylactery, he didn't seem to remember/care about the fact it hadn't yet been recovered and was going to try standing out to be a rebel? That's like deciding to break into a bank and giving the bankteller your address.  Second to be "free" of the Wardens? I was like "Oh come on!" He left the Wardens supposedly because they got rid of his cat. How'd they tell him to get rid of the cat when he'd used a dead corpse as a decoy and made a run for it? Nowhere during Awakening did that actually happen, and it'd have required Anders to stay with the Wardens sometime longer for these sorts of disputes to have actually emerged. At the time he'd left, Pouncealot was welcome and IIRC it was Anders who'd been considering that maybe he should find him a better home.

1 ) People can and will change their minds, especially under durress.  Having just been screwed over by the wardens (and NO, not just about his cat), I can see how he might suddenly change his mind about a few things.  HE SNAPPED.  It's pretty clear in DA2 that he is crazypants.
2) He didn't drag the Warden around, he merely asked the Warden if he/she would help find his phylactery.  YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO HELP HIM.
3) He didn't leave the Wardens because they got rid of his cat.  He left the Wardens because they:
a) Conveniently set him up with an "ex-Templar" who still had Templar buddies
He KILLED SAID EX-TEMPLAR and all of his buddies in rage, yeah I'm pretty sure the Warden Commander would be totally okay with letting him stay
tl;dr IT WASN'T THE CAT
4) Just because he used a dead body as a decoy to run away from Vigil's Keep doesn't mean he left the Wardens at that point, either.


Hgghfghhgh This thread is hurting my braincells this is just the beginning of my epic forehead slap.

[TEWR]

RinjiRenee, that rainbow sig! Oh god my laptop is drinking my Gatorade! 5th time this week....

[Rinji the Bearded]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

RinjiRenee, that rainbow sig! Oh god my laptop is drinking my Gatorade! 5th time this week....

I hope the Gatorade is a bright and fierce color.

G'night everyone.

[whitless256]

So.... IT WASN'T THE CAT, Rinji?

You actually made an argument based on a story you actually read? Rather than making assumptions based on a throw away line in the game? What are you doing on these forums?

[Rinji the Bearded]

whitless256 wrote...

So.... IT WASN'T THE CAT, Rinji?

You actually made an argument based on a story you actually read? Rather than making assumptions based on a throw away line in the game? What are you doing on these forums?

I don't know I was about to go to bed. 

Idk maybe he did leave the Wardens over Ser P -- I would have, too.  What a bunch of jerks.

[TEWR]

RinjiRenee wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

RinjiRenee, that rainbow sig! Oh god my laptop is drinking my Gatorade! 5th time this week....

I hope the Gatorade is a bright and fierce color.

G'night everyone.

Light blue.

[Super_Fr33k]

As other people have pointed out, the changes in personality and sexuality in DA2 are not gigantic irrational inconsistencies. Justice gave Anders the conviction and empathy to face the Templar problem, which Anders feared because I think he knew, on some level, how difficult and violent its solution would be. And sexuality, of course, is too bizarre to make concrete statements. What people want, and what they admit they want, are variables that can cloud up anything.

For people raging about timeline and epilogue inconsistencies, which are much more valid criticisms, I can only encourage you to take solace in how most characters we "knew" in DAO changed a lot in DA2. So much they joked about it. A bigger point to make, and more worth making, is that DA2 radically reworked several known characters into brand new characters. It's having your cake and eating it too, since such radical changes make the connection to DAO and DAA very weak.

[Viyu]

nekhbet wrote...

Viyu wrote...

My apologies. I forgot to mention one other thing.He doesn't flirt with male wardens like he does female wardens, implying that he does not have the preference for men that he does for women--at least, not at that time. So my opinion on Anders' sexuality doesn't simply rest on the "sword" joke. It's not that I could NEVER imagine Anders bi, but it makes no chronological sense that Karl would be his first. It's implied through the fact that Anders had no preference towards men during Awakening, that Karl and Anders couldn't have met before Anders "became" a Warden. And again, it makes no sense that Justice could posess Anders and leave the Wardens for Kirkwall merely a year after the blight. What I am trying to say, is that it'd be more practical if Hawke was Anders' first, and the transition from straight to bi should have been explored carefully and intimately.

Sexuality is a fluid thing. It's pretty much the standard type of bisexuality that you go through phases of fancying men more for a while and then you find yourself fancying women more for a while. The people who fancy 50% women and 50% men at all times throughout their lives, expressing it nonstop, are few.

In Awakening, there's simply no telling what Anders' sexuality is. He likes girls for sure, but nothing says he doesn't fancy boys as well. You simply can't tell, which is how it usually is for bisexual people. You don't know until they say it.

You're missing the point. You are trying to fanwank it for the writers, but the problem is that it is still a plothole. It can be FILLED sure, not all plotholes are these delicate, irreparable things. But that does not change the fact that as of right now, this is a plothole and UNTIL it gets filled it seems like character derailment rather than establishment. No transition is given to explain in detail the nature of Anders' personality regarding sexuality, because there are many types of sexuality. Pansexual,homosexual, bisexual, etc. Zevran makes it clear to the audience what his sexuality is. Effective writers get into the heads of the characters so that we, their audience, can understand and appreciate the story through understanding its characters. Us "guessing" why Anders seems repelled by men one moment and not the next does not FILL the plothole. That is up to them to do. Your audience shouldn't have to "guess" and try to piece together certain things you should have done. Could there be a DLC that fills this plothole? Absoloutely.

Modifié par Viyu, 21 avril 2011 - 04:37 .

[The Angry One]

How is that a plot hole?
At what point was it necesarry in Awakening for Anders to fully reveal his sexuality?