318 réponses à ce sujet

[Sherbet Lemon]

Viyu wrote...

Us "guessing" why Anders seems repelled by men one moment and not the next does not FILL the plothole. That is up to them to do. Your audience shouldn't have to "guess" and try to piece together certain things you should have done. Could there be a DLC that fills this plothole? Absoloutely.

Where did Ander show that he was "repelled" by other men?  I'm desperately trying to remember a time in Awakening where Anders effectly shouted, "No, Warden Commander!  I'm not interested in your hot man sausage, only tasty, tasty clam for me!" 

Not even going to go there with the rest of what you wrote as there are many schools of literary criticism that would disagree with your assertions.

[DeaHamlet]

Sabariel wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Why he or Merrill don't become Tranquil when killed in Feynriel's dream isn't explained. I won't bother to speculate.

Merrill and Anders don't become Tranquil because the group is essentially attached to Feynriel's mind, not Anders' and not Merrill's.

That's a great explanation, thank you!  I was kind of murking about in that general direction but feeling still a tad confused.  This makes it super clear for me.  So again, thanx!

[frustratemyself]

Am I the only person that finds it hilarious that the best part of 6 pages have been spent arguing over the sexual orientation of pixels?

[MikoDoll]

Because he didn't fancy the Warden that way? And people can flirt without actually wanting to bed someone, which apparently happened with the female Warden since she gets rejected.

An interesting point, but why would he not only not flirt with men but leave the "I don't love you in that way" remark specifically for a guy, and not a female? Again for me, it's not an issue of whether he had the capacity to be bi.I'm sure guy Hawke could make many people rethink their sexuality, lol. I just don't buy the whole deal with Karl and all that flippin angst.

frustratemyself wrote...

Am I the only person that finds it hilarious that the best part of 6 pages have been spent arguing over
the sexual orientation of pixels?

Yeeesss...but this is the only stuff I see people talking about. Maybe I should just stop feeding it, because I think it's depriving any depth this thread could have. There's more to this thread than whether or not he could've actually loved Karl, or whatever. It really is a shame that despite all the other issues brought up this is the only one pepole
want to discuss. I'd be far more interested in discussing the plotholesregarding Anders' very abprut shift in characterization. It had a lot more of an impact to the story. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

Modifié par MikoDoll, 21 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[DeaHamlet]

Village Idiot wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Us "guessing" why Anders seems repelled by men one moment and not the next does not FILL the plothole. That is up to them to do. Your audience shouldn't have to "guess" and try to piece together certain things you should have done. Could there be a DLC that fills this plothole? Absoloutely.

Where did Ander show that he was "repelled" by other men?  I'm desperately trying to remember a time in Awakening where Anders effectly shouted, "No, Warden Commander!  I'm not interested in your hot man sausage, only tasty, tasty clam for me!" 

Not even going to go there with the rest of what you wrote as there are many schools of literary criticism that would disagree with your assertions.

Let's be clear.  With all the flirting, nobody was getting any sexy times in Awakening.
I have totally told some of my female besties that I love them, but not that way (especially when swept up by some excitement over something or other).  I don't see how that is a "no ******" statement, I think it's very appropriate.
And Anders DOES turn the Warden down regardless.  He just doesn't want the Warden.  For the female, he gets to turn her down, for the male he gets to say "but not that way".  Either way... Anders belongs to Hawke forever and ever and he just didn't know it yet .

[nightscrawl]

autumnyte wrote...

In a playthrough where my male Hawke slept with Fenris, got dumped by him, and then watched him move on to Isabella in Act 3 -- Fenris was very much bisexual.

Interesting xD. I've only done the partner switch once, but that was in my first play as a female Hawke and going from Fenris to Anders, and at that time I was less familiar with the whole system.

Hm... I don't know. I'm thinking I might prefer it if it were more rigid, since it doesn't seem realistic the other way. On the other hand, we are talking about a magically tattooed elf and 2 possessed mages (Isabela as the pirate girl seems practically normal!) so... >.>

[DeaHamlet]

MikoDoll wrote...

Because he didn't fancy the Warden that way? And people can flirt without actually wanting to bed someone, which apparently happened with the female Warden since she gets rejected.

An interesting point, but why would he not only not flirt with men but leave the "I don't love you in that way" remark specifically for a guy, and not a female? *snipsnip*

Maybe cause he already got to turn down female Hawke so she doesn't need to be told he's not into the hawtness that is the Warden?   Maybe cause he wasn't 100% comfortable and wanted to aleviate any confusion from the Warden thinking "omg, he says he loves me, does that mean he wants sexy times?!?!"?  

Completely left-field, but does he tell female Warden that he loves her at all?  I haven't gone through that particular circumstance myself.

[Miri1984]

By the way the "I love you but not in that way" line is there for female wardens as well as male.

JUST SO YOU KNOW.

[DeaHamlet]

Miri1984 wrote...

By the way the "I love you but not in that way" line is there for female wardens as well as male.

JUST SO YOU KNOW.

Thanx for letting (us)me know.  Cause I never heard it ever either way so I was wondering what he says to female Warden.
So there.  That's solved.

[The Angry One]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

By the way the "I love you but not in that way" line is there for female wardens as well as male.

JUST SO YOU KNOW.

Thanx for letting (us)me know.  Cause I never heard it ever either way so I was wondering what he says to female Warden.
So there.  That's solved.

I was wondering too. Never got that far in Awakening. Probably should one of these days.
Anyway, this clearly means one thing. Anders took a vow of chastity. PLOT HOLE PLOT HOLE.

[Viyu]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Why he or Merrill don't become Tranquil when killed in Feynriel's dream isn't explained. I won't bother to speculate.

Merrill and Anders don't become Tranquil because the group is essentially attached to Feynriel's mind, not Anders' and not Merrill's.

That's a great explanation, thank you!  I was kind of murking about in that general direction but feeling still a tad confused.  This makes it super clear for me.  So again, thanx!

That doesn't make much sense to me. Isn't the fade a dimension in and of itself? Why does it matter if you are in someone else's dream? 

[DeaHamlet]

I love DA2, I like new Anders, I like old Anders... I can see the transition and I like that not everything is spelled out. I like it when the FACTS aren't hitting me on the head all the time and there's room for my imagination to come into play.
They discounted the slides at the end of DA:O and DA:A. That's what they really did, in fact.
I don't see that they hijacked anyone, there's plenty of room for me to make sense of the changes. In fact, Anders at least has SOME clues and stories behind his changes... while Leliana... omg I hardened her so she'd become a bard and she's back with the chantry again? And there's zero explanation there.
The story is enough about Anders without endless exposition about every step of his transformation. We have imagination, I like using mine, this is not a novel or some movie... it's a game. With many (infuriating) time lapses. C'est la vie.
I don't see the glaring problems with Anders' change. At all. Going back to the banter and discussions in Awakening, for me, just made it OMG, how did I not realize, it was all there in front of my eyes.

What I'm miffed about is what they did to my poor Warden character.
Compared to that, everything else is downright explainable.
Why did my warden leave? She ain't the type to leave her friends, in fact she kept most of them close or tried to during both games (she even shed a tear for Morrigan despite how often they fought). And yet... she left Anders in the care of some idiot who was okay with ex-templars and other shenanigans.

Oh and did I mention they killed off Nate and Anders despite my trying to make sure they survive? Cause the slides mean nothing apparently.
So I'm supposed to get all miffed over Anders' changes which most make complete sense to me and the rest are awesome exercises for my imagination?

MEH.

Also, I'm not sure why, but suggestions that characters' sexuality should be more "fixed" and not bisexual, e.g. Fenris/male Hawke/Isabela story... make me a little hot under the collar.
What's wrong with bisexual characters? They ought to be in your face like Zevran or something? Fenris is very low key about his sex preferences or lack therefore and mostly his activities. I don't exactly see what the problem is.

[Viyu]

The Angry One wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

By the way the "I love you but not in that way" line is there for female wardens as well as male.

JUST SO YOU KNOW.

Thanx for letting (us)me know.  Cause I never heard it ever either way so I was wondering what he says to female Warden.
So there.  That's solved.

I was wondering too. Never got that far in Awakening. Probably should one of these days.
Anyway, this clearly means one thing. Anders took a vow of chastity. PLOT HOLE PLOT HOLE.

Seconded. But still, it's no excuse for not developing or establishing Anders change in behavior like they did with Zevran. They shouldn't just expect fans to figure it out for them. It's utterly weak prose when people pick up the peices for an author. Still, I think we've gotten so sidetracked about this topic in particular that nobody has touched on the character change aside from that which warrant discussion.

Modifié par Viyu, 21 avril 2011 - 06:02 .

[MikoDoll]

Can we seriously talk about something other than whether or not he's bi. Or make a new thread for it guys because there were a handful of posts up there and it seems like rather than addressing the several more valid plotholes, the one that's basis is the weakest is the only one being discussed as if proving it means plotholes don't exist or should be ignored. They shouldn't be. Plotholes shaped this story in a very major way. I really don't care about the blood mage specialization or Karl's affair with Anders as important to the story. Debates on Anders' sexuality won't change that I don't feel Karl could've been that signifficant to the guy regardless. Still. How about talking about Anders' change in personality for no reason?

It's like "Anders merged with Justice outside the fade, Connor didn't."

"Actually no, it seemed like Hepler wrote the mergigng to take place in the fade and--"

"did Anders really love Karl or bi?"

"Right and so like I said it seems like Hepler said they joined in the fade and."

"Anders could've been bi, you can't prove otherwise!"

Swell. I don't mean to come across as snippy at all, and please don't take it that way, but it's not important what the answer is because a breif mention of Karl has next to no impact in the story. Anders blowing up the Chantry and forcing me to choose whether or not I had to shank him? Much bigger point in the story and I'd like to discuss if that was a viable portrayal of the character at this point.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 21 avril 2011 - 05:55 .

[DeaHamlet]

Viyu wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Why he or Merrill don't become Tranquil when killed in Feynriel's dream isn't explained. I won't bother to speculate.

Merrill and Anders don't become Tranquil because the group is essentially attached to Feynriel's mind, not Anders' and not Merrill's.

That's a great explanation, thank you!  I was kind of murking about in that general direction but feeling still a tad confused.  This makes it super clear for me.  So again, thanx!

That doesn't make much sense to me. Isn't the fade a dimension in and of itself? Why does it matter if you are in someone else's dream? 

He's a Dreamer.  Who has control over the Fade.  To begin with, unwitting control, but he has it and that's why the demons want him.  If you do it right, he starts to have an awareness of his abilities and can consciously use them.  He needs more training, of course, but he always has the ability, he just isn't aware of his abilities to begin with.
And the keeper herself warns you that you are going into something different.  And where people may be tempted.  And Merrill tells you that the demons' persuasive powers are amplified in this Fade space that Feynriel controls.

[Ryzaki]

frustratemyself wrote...

Am I the only person that finds it hilarious that the best part of 6 pages have been spent arguing over the sexual orientation of pixels?

No no you are not. 

A shame really because I see some of the merit in the OPs points. They just had to ruin it by placing that orientation bit in. 

[MikoDoll]

Ryzaki wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...

Am I the only person that finds it hilarious that the best part of 6 pages have been spent arguing over the sexual orientation of pixels?

No no you are not. 

A shame really because I see some of the merit in the OPs points. They just had to ruin it by placing that orientation bit in. 

It needs to be deleted and taken to another thread. The fixation with this issue when the OP even states Hawke becoming an exception is possible isn't really worth wasting another 6 pages over...

[DeaHamlet]

Also. Anders still believes in the Maker even at the end. He just doesn't see why mages ought to be shunned for a gift the Maker gave them.
I'm not sure Anders has a plan, he just doesn't think the status quo should continue.
Maybe he's not against ALL chantries, maybe just against this one. Or maybe not against any of them, it's just what he thought would spark change.
So I don't see how it's such a big plot hole that he was for the chantry in DA:A and blew up a particular chantry in DA2.
And the man did have 7 years to grow to distrust and hate templars and the system after being knee deep in the muck of it all. It's not like he wanted to blow up the chantry from act 1.

[Viyu]

MikoDoll wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...

Am I the only person that finds it hilarious that the best part of 6 pages have been spent arguing over the sexual orientation of pixels?

No no you are not. 

A shame really because I see some of the merit in the OPs points. They just had to ruin it by placing that orientation bit in. 

It needs to be deleted and taken to another thread. The fixation with this issue when the OP even states Hawke becoming an exception is possible isn't really worth wasting another 6 pages over...

Your right, I think I'll delete it. Its not worth the rest of the points in this discussion being overshadowed by whether or not Anders likes sausage. Anders' sexuality as a whole needs explaining, I will say that much, and the lack of explanation does have me rather worried for Zev and Leilianna.

Modifié par Viyu, 21 avril 2011 - 06:08 .

[Tyrium]

Well, Anders, Fenris and Merril never give any hints of being attracted to the same sex if you play an opposite sex Hawke. Therefore, you can choose to play them as straight, or assume it is a conversation that occurs off screen, and they are bisexual.

Personally, the story about Karl feels like a very clumsy retcon on a character that was originally written as straight, so I was overjoyed to discover it was impossible to trigger on a female playthrough. In my game, Anders is straight, and Bioware have allowed that to be a legitimate interpretation. If having characters change sexualities between male/fem Hawke bothers you, all you need to do is imagine the conversation occured off screen.

Gaider's comments on the topic have been quite confusing, but (as far as I can tell) it boils down to them considering all characters to be bisexual, but that they have deliberately done it this way so that the player can choose to interpret Anders / Fenris / Merril as straight (or bisexual).

Modifié par Tyrium, 21 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[MikoDoll]

So I don't see how it's such a big plot hole that he was for the chantry in DA:A and blew up a particular chantry in DA2.

I saw it as a plothole because none of the reservations Anders had that prevented him from becoming active in helping mages was resolved. He still couldn't even protect himself from the templars who'd had his phylactery. He'd also been particularly worried about dying. There should've been missions to expand on making Anders a braver character and helping him finally find his phylactery before even trying to have him think of roaming Kirkwall with Justice as some rebel leader. Since Justice was to serve the Wardens for many years they had plenty of time to do it in Act I and maybe even half of Act II. And then there's the issue with why he'd even left the Wardens.

Modifié par MikoDoll, 21 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[Viyu]

Ok I deleted the part about the sexuality because I think it's taking up waaaay too much discussion.But like I said, I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that people are confused regardless of any attempts made by fans to explain it, which is my main concern. I...actually thought my topic would disappear to the next page. Wooow.

[Viyu]

MikoDoll wrote...

So I don't see how it's such a big plot hole that he was for the chantry in DA:A and blew up a particular chantry in DA2.

I saw it as a plothole because none of the reservations Anders had that prevented him from becoming active in helping mages was resolved. He still couldn't even protect himself from the templars who'd had his phylactery. He'd also been particularly worried about dying. There should've been missions to expand on making Anders a braver character and helping him finally find his phylactery before even trying to have him think of roaming Kirkwall with Justice as some rebel leader. Since Justice was to serve the Wardens for many years they had plenty of time to do it in Act I and maybe even half of Act II. And then there's the issue with why he'd even left the Wardens.

This. Also, at what point does Anders start believing that the chantry is no longer necessary like he does in Awakening?

[Viyu]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Viyu wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Why he or Merrill don't become Tranquil when killed in Feynriel's dream isn't explained. I won't bother to speculate.

Merrill and Anders don't become Tranquil because the group is essentially attached to Feynriel's mind, not Anders' and not Merrill's.

That's a great explanation, thank you!  I was kind of murking about in that general direction but feeling still a tad confused.  This makes it super clear for me.  So again, thanx!

That doesn't make much sense to me. Isn't the fade a dimension in and of itself? Why does it matter if you are in someone else's dream? 

He's a Dreamer.  Who has control over the Fade.  To begin with, unwitting control, but he has it and that's why the demons want him.  If you do it right, he starts to have an awareness of his abilities and can consciously use them.  He needs more training, of course, but he always has the ability, he just isn't aware of his abilities to begin with.
And the keeper herself warns you that you are going into something different.  And where people may be tempted.  And Merrill tells you that the demons' persuasive powers are amplified in this Fade space that Feynriel controls.

Yes but I am confused about the whole FADE element--as in, its still the same dimension as the regular fade, but Feyriel has control of what goes on, but that doesn't change the fact that the laws of the fade shouldn't apply because he can still encounter demons and citizens of the fade. The world itself is not his creation, so why don't certain things apply like Justice and Anders not being separated like in Connor's case, and for what purpose? Still  though, I am MORE confused with WHY Anders and Justice can't be seperated like Connor.

Modifié par Viyu, 21 avril 2011 - 06:26 .

[MikoDoll]

Actually he said the CIRCLE was  necessary. I don't recall him saying anything about the Chantry. But by the time Hepler writes Anders to merge with Justice he wants to be rid of the Circle too...

Modifié par MikoDoll, 21 avril 2011 - 06:23 .