318 réponses à ce sujet

[tanuki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Everyone,

Let's not forget one important fact that distinguishes Anders/Justice from other Spirits and Demons. When Justice and Anders agreed to merge, Justice was not doing so from a domain in the fade. That's the USUAL way it happens. Justice was cut off from the fade so it was possess a host or die. That makes the situation with Justice (as far as I know) unique.

-Polaris

And yet he said to Velanna that he is not bound to Kristoff body and could choose to leave it if he wish? I smell something fishy there. Surely he could leave Anders if he wanted.

[IanPolaris]

Ashley_82 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Everyone,

Let's not forget one important fact that distinguishes Anders/Justice from other Spirits and Demons. When Justice and Anders agreed to merge, Justice was not doing so from a domain in the fade. That's the USUAL way it happens. Justice was cut off from the fade so it was possess a host or die. That makes the situation with Justice (as far as I know) unique.

-Polaris

And yet he said to Velanna that he is not bound to Kristoff body and could choose to leave it if he wish? I smell something fishy there. Surely he could leave Anders if he wanted.

Both can be true.  You are perfectly free to cut your own throat.  There is no physical force stopping you....but you probably won't be around to evaluate the results afterwards.

They way I took it was that Justice has to ride hosts.  Also be aware that the host in question was a corpse and I think it's reasonable to think there is a difference between a souless corpose and a sentient being with it's own soul.

Regardless, the Anders/Justice thing is unique and we should treat it as such IMHO.

-Polaris

[tanuki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ashley_82 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Everyone,

Let's not forget one important fact that distinguishes Anders/Justice from other Spirits and Demons. When Justice and Anders agreed to merge, Justice was not doing so from a domain in the fade. That's the USUAL way it happens. Justice was cut off from the fade so it was possess a host or die. That makes the situation with Justice (as far as I know) unique.

-Polaris

And yet he said to Velanna that he is not bound to Kristoff body and could choose to leave it if he wish? I smell something fishy there. Surely he could leave Anders if he wanted.

Both can be true.  You are perfectly free to cut your own throat.  There is no physical force stopping you....but you probably won't be around to evaluate the results afterwards.

They way I took it was that Justice has to ride hosts.  Also be aware that the host in question was a corpse and I think it's reasonable to think there is a difference between a souless corpose and a sentient being with it's own soul.

Regardless, the Anders/Justice thing is unique and we should treat it as such IMHO.

-Polaris

The problem with Justice is that he didn't know for sure what would happen if he leaves Kristoff body. If living human will cut his own throat it will mean death. Justice didn't know whether he would die or just return to the Fade. And he didn't even try to find out. He could at least ask around, check on some books, find someone who can try to send him back likew Marethari. Instead he preferred to persuade Anders to give him his body as host. Not a demon-like behavoir, not at all.

Edit: ugh what was that?

Modifié par Ashley_82, 21 avril 2011 - 11:01 .

[sonoko]

Ashley_82 wrote...


And yet he said to Velanna that he is not bound to Kristoff body and could choose to leave it if he wish? I smell something fishy there. Surely he could leave Anders if he wanted.

I think the key difference here is that  
Kristoff is a already corpse when Justice possesses it. There was no soul Justice had to merge with therefore it's not difficult for him to leave. 

The situation with Justice possessing Anders is different:  Anders has a  soul and Justice not just enters his body but merges with Anders' soul as well. It's very likely that "un-merging" of two living souls isn't possible. We even don't know if such merging have ever occurred before Anders+Justice.

[whitless256]

I'm already gonna be late for work by responding, but I wanted to before I left.

This is in response to a discussion a few pages back about Anders' views on the Chantry and the Circle. I think some folks are misunderstanding Anders' motive in blowing up the Chantry. This has nothing to do with how he feels about the Chantry itself or the religion itself. The reason he did it was to remove the one person in Kirkwall who was attempting to move towards compramise between Templars and Mages. Elthina's pressence was preventing any action and leaving the situation to simply fester without progressing. By removing her he acomplished several goals.

1) Removed the person working (however ineffectively, that's a whole nother topic!) towards a peaceful resolution, which he did not want.
2) Removed the person who was likely keeping Meredith in check to a degree. I.E. Meredith couldn't call for the Rite of Annulement while Elthina was there because that authority belonged to the Grand Cleric. With her dead, Meredith could go even more crazypants and show her true colors.

The act of blowing up the Chantry does not reflect on his views of religion or the Chantry in that sense. However he IS clearly against Chantry oversight in the Circle, especialy in Kirkwall where everything went crazy.

[Rifneno]

frustratemyself wrote...

Am I the only person that finds it hilarious that the best part of 6 pages have been spent arguing over the sexual orientation of pixels?

Yes.  People have been debating and analyzing literary characters for thousands of years.  The notion that a story loses legitimacy if it's on a modern format is, frankly, just stupid.

DeaHamlet wrote...

while Leliana... omg I hardened her so she'd become a bard and she's back with the chantry again? And there's zero explanation there.

Amen.  Neo-Leliana makes me want to kick orphans.

MikoDoll wrote...

Anders blowing up the Chantry and forcing me to choose whether or not I had to shank him? Much bigger point in the story and I'd like to discuss if that was a viable portrayal of the character at this point.

What.  Anders' Chantry stunt has approx. 361,850 threads.  This week.  A lot of this other stuff does need more attention, I'll agree with that, but definitely not the Chantry attack.

Viyu wrote...

This. Also, at what point does Anders start believing that the chantry is no longer necessary like he does in Awakening?

Did he ever say he felt the Chantry was necessary?  I took what he said as meaning that trying to split from the Chantry would cause open war and it simply wasn't worth it.  But he'd only seen the Ferelden Chantry.  After 7 years of seeing the downright evil the Chantry turns a blind eye to in Kirkwall, he probably changed his mind.  I know I did.  And I didn't have to put up with them for the better part of a decade after they stole my lover's soul for writing a ****ing letter.

mhendon wrote...

Anders seems to be an Andrastian to some extent, but doesn't interpret the chant in the same way that the majority seems to as it pertains to mages. This is consistent from Awakening to 2 thankfully. So I don't think he has anything against the chantry otherwise.

No rational mind interprets Andraste's words as the idiots at the Chantry do.  "Magic should serve man, not rule over him" is a pretty far cry from "Imprison all mages and do whatever it takes, including butchering children en masse, to keep them under control."

We should also consider that interpreting Andraste's phrasing as "Don't use blood magic to make rightful rulers your puppets," which while not exactly what Andraste said is a far more reasonable interpretation than the Chantry's, is the belief of the Tevinter Chantry.  And if the wonderful people at the Chantry think you're a worshipper of theirs they'll kill you for heresy.  So even if people did believe the Chantry was taking that passage way too far, they're unlikely to be telling everyone.

Sabariel wrote...

They merged before Justice went Full Demon so that wouldn't make any difference. The process was complete.

I still don't buy this theory.  It basically boils down to "spirits and demons are different.  Except when they're not."  If spirits and demons are two different sides of the same coin, they're under the same rules.  This just seems like people QQ'd so much about Connor's situation having a "good" solution that they don't want to give us any more "good" solutions.  It killed Leandra, and now it's seeming like it's removing the chance to seperate Anders from Justice.

[AlexXIV]

First off, changing mood is not changing character. Or 'mischaracterisation'. Anders always had problems with the way mages were treated. By the Chantry and the Templars. He knew that mages are dangerous but he never said that he was ok with what the Chantry and Templars are doing. Yes he has become more moody and brooding. But that's what can happen if you go through alot of **** in life. People get less happy and more brooding.

Also two factors. Justice and Darkspawn corruption. Anders not only foolishly joined with a spirit from the fade, he is also a Grey Warden, which means being corrupted by the taint and having nightmares, etc. That's pretty much a combination that could almost explain anything and everything.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 avril 2011 - 11:50 .

[frustratemyself]

Rifneno wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...

Am I the only person that finds it hilarious that the best part of 6 pages have been spent arguing over the sexual orientation of pixels?

Yes.  People have been debating and analyzing literary characters for thousands of years.  The notion that a story loses legitimacy if it's on a modern format is, frankly, just stupid.

Yes, knee-jerk responses are always brilliant. Was it lost on you that of all the things in the OP, sexual orientation was the one that most people instantly zeroed in on? I find it amusing that people can put so much energy and angst into one aspect (that is hardly pivotal to the story) of a fictional character.

Edit for spelling.

Modifié par frustratemyself, 21 avril 2011 - 12:06 .

[Rifneno]

frustratemyself wrote...

Yes, knee-jerk responses are always brilliant. Was it lost on that of all the things in the OP, sexual orientation was the one that most people instantly zeroed in on? I find it amusing that people can put so much energy and angst into one aspect (that is hardly pivotal to the story) of a fictional character.

The fact that most of the debate was due to the way Anders is presented conflicted with people's beliefs on how sexuality works wasn't exactly subtle.  I'm not sure how you missed it.

[AlexXIV]

In my playthroughs Anders probably turned gay (or bi) because of my (female) Warden. She was such a **** sometimes.

[TEWR]

Sabariel wrote...

Viyu wrote...


But the thing is that Connor was possed because he allowed the demon to willingly take control of him like Anders did with Justice. Justice did not force posession on Anders so shouldn't it be possible for them to be separated?

Connor's demon and Justice are two different entities and two very different processes occured.

Connor made a deal with the demon to save his father (most likely without really knowing what he was assenting to) and the demon forcibly took control of him. Connor was possessed.

Possess: to occupy, dominate, or control (a person) from within.

Anders agreed to be a host for Justice, to merge with him, so they could work together. Anders is not possessed. He and Justice are one.

Merge: to combine, blend, or unite gradually so as to blur the individuality or individual identity of.

Two very, very different things.

Viyu wrote...

Still,
didn't Justice become a demon when he merged with Anders? And aren't
demons and spirits really the same aside from personality traits? The
writers shouldn't be TELLING us this in posts, they should be showing us
in story. Because if certain fans who don't frequent the boards get
confused, there will be nobody there to solve the confusion, anyway.

They merged before Justice went Full Demon so that wouldn't make any difference. The process was complete.

Not to mention that the demon that possessed Connor was still in the Fade. Since it was still in the Fade, that's what made it possible to save Connor.

David Gaider has already clearly explained that spirit merging and demonic possession are two different things. Justice and Anders did in fact merge Viyu. They are two beings inhabiting the same body, the same mind. Justice's thoughts are Anders' thoughts. This is vastly different from Connor, where the demon and Connor were two separate entities. Connor is also unable to remember details isn't he?

Once Anders and Justice merged, the spirit merging idea happened. End of story. It doesn't matter that Justice turned into Vengeance later on, as the spirit merging had already been followed through on.

And incidentally, vengeance is just the darker side of justice. There is a grey and very thin line between Justice and Vengeance. Both are forms of justice.

[TheComfyCat]

Rifneno wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

They merged before Justice went Full Demon so that wouldn't make any difference. The process was complete.

I still don't buy this theory.  It basically boils down to "spirits and demons are different.  Except when they're not."  If spirits and demons are two different sides of the same coin, they're under the same rules.  This just seems like people QQ'd so much about Connor's situation having a "good" solution that they don't want to give us any more "good" solutions.  It killed Leandra, and now it's seeming like it's removing the chance to seperate Anders from Justice.

But from what we've seen, there does seem to be a difference between fade spirits and demons. One example is Wynne (who melded with a spirit) versus Connor (possessed by a desire demon from the fade).

I'm not convinced that we know enough about the more benign citizens of the fade to make claims about all the rules they may or may not be subject to. I'm not even sure we know enough to really understand their various motivations and differences.

It does, however, seem that spirits merge with their hosts, which is different from demon possession. And merging with a spirit doesn't sound like something reversible. If there isn't a way to separate Justice and Anders, I think it'll be related to that, and not just a handwave/ retcon to make sure we can't have a happy ending.

(I keep posting a link to this thread where David Gaider talks about fade spirits, but it's relevant.)

[tanuki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

David Gaider has already clearly explained that spirit merging and demonic possession are two different things. Justice and Anders did in fact merge Viyu. They are two beings inhabiting the same body, the same mind. Justice's thoughts are Anders' thoughts. This is vastly different from Connor, where the demon and Connor were two separate entities. Connor is also unable to remember details isn't he?

Once Anders and Justice merged, the spirit merging idea happened. End of story. It doesn't matter that Justice turned into Vengeance later on, as the spirit merging had already been followed through on.

And incidentally, vengeance is just the darker side of justice. There is a grey and very thin line between Justice and Vengeance. Both are forms of justice.

That is not exactly so, as many ppl pointed out already, especially with rival Anders. I actually don't know why Anders insists he's the one with Justice when it's clearly not true and he himself says couple of times "Justice thinks that...". It's probably that when they are in agreement, he doesn't need to bother with who exactly thought what - him or Justice. But on some matters (like romancing Hawke), they are clearly in disagreement. That's why on rivalry when Hawke's influence makes Anders question his methods, Justice manifests itself more like a separate entity.

Modifié par Ashley_82, 21 avril 2011 - 12:36 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not to mention that the demon that possessed Connor was still in the Fade. Since it was still in the Fade, that's what made it possible to save Connor.

David Gaider has already clearly explained that spirit merging and demonic possession are two different things. Justice and Anders did in fact merge Viyu. They are two beings inhabiting the same body, the same mind. Justice's thoughts are Anders' thoughts. This is vastly different from Connor, where the demon and Connor were two separate entities. Connor is also unable to remember details isn't he?

Once Anders and Justice merged, the spirit merging idea happened. End of story. It doesn't matter that Justice turned into Vengeance later on, as the spirit merging had already been followed through on.

And incidentally, vengeance is just the darker side of justice. There is a grey and very thin line between Justice and Vengeance. Both are forms of justice.

Except that's not what we see in-game. It's made crystal clear that Justice is still his own entity.  He did not merge with Anders to create an entirely new being that is half-Justice and half-Anders.  They beat us over the head with it when Justice is in control by giving him that blue aura and different voice.  Anders even says things like "Justice doesn't approve," clearly telling us that while they're in the same physical form they are still two seperate beings.

[tanuki]

Rifneno, <here should be cheers smiley>

[whitless256]

Really, the only one who says that Justice and Anders are one is Anders himself and he is not consistant himself! Sometimes he'll insist that he and Justice are one, but then he'll say the aforementioned "Justice does not approve..." I don't think even Anders himself knows exactly how it works, so how can we expect to?

We are led to believe that something like this has never happened before, at least in the knowledge of the characters in the game, which is really all we have to go on. So we can't even count on them to define it for us. The exact workings of what Anders and Justice did is an unknown. That's not a plothole.

Edit:  You can also think of it like two sides of a person's personality.  Sometimes you have conflicting ideas in your head, or you do something based on an emotional reaction that your more rational side would later regret.  How many people have entered relationships while saying things like "Part of me doesn't think this is a good idea..."   Anders might just be more aware of when ideas come from the part of him that is Justice. 

It's not exactly the same thing, but like I said above, even Anders himself can't clearly define what he is so how could I hope to?

Modifié par whitless256, 21 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[Big I]

My problem with DA2 Anders was they took two characters I liked in Awakening and made them into one character I hated in DA2.


I support mages in the DA franchise, but even I got tired of Anders whining for the whole game about how bad they have it. He's a complete ****** to almost every other companion, and is a complete hypocrite in the application of his "justice". Justice is not killing an escaping mage for cringing away from you; justice is not killing innocent non-combatants to start a war. Also, he never cares about other forms of injustice. Does he ever try to advocate the cause of Fereldan refugees? How about city elves? He even cheers if Fenris, a former slave, is returned to slavery.


I read in a dev post that their goal in writing Meredith and Anders was to get people to reconsider which side they supported. Well, I never questioned supporting the mages because Anders was clearly a) mad, and a lying hypocrite.

[Rinji the Bearded]

whitless256 wrote...

Really, the only one who says that Justice and Anders are one is Anders himself and he is not consistant himself! Sometimes he'll insist that he and Justice are one, but then he'll say the aforementioned "Justice does not approve..." I don't think even Anders himself knows exactly how it works, so how can we expect to?

We are led to believe that something like this has never happened before, at least in the knowledge of the characters in the game, which is really all we have to go on. So we can't even count on them to define it for us. The exact workings of what Anders and Justice did is an unknown. That's not a plothole.

Edit:  You can also think of it like two sides of a person's personality.  Sometimes you have conflicting ideas in your head, or you do something based on an emotional reaction that your more rational side would later regret.  How many people have entered relationships while saying things like "Part of me doesn't think this is a good idea..."   Anders might just be more aware of when ideas come from the part of him that is Justice. 

It's not exactly the same thing, but like I said above, even Anders himself can't clearly define what he is so how could I hope to?

I think he even said something like how scholars could not tell you where Anders ends and Justice begins, so it's pretty safe to assume that we're not supposed to know wth is going on.

[The dead fish]

Nyu has understood this literal crap in this area.

There is no consistency in the "new "sexuality of Anders in DA2.  It was simply to get knitted to give credit to the fanservice.

And quite frankly I hope that next episode we will Leliana, Isabela and Zevran, who will become only heterosexuals.

You will then see how it feels to see the characters processed simply because of silly stories of fanservice.

I'll ravish to see all those out there who have encouraged this kind of inconsistency, just for fanservice, just see reverse things, so that they understand.

I am sure, in Mass Effect, we would have a character who was bi, being available only to heterosexual in the sequel, they would scream like hell that it is not consistent.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 21 avril 2011 - 03:09 .

[Russalka]

Justice stirred many things that Anders was not willing to express in Awakening. Why can't his bisexuality be one of those?

Modifié par Russalka, 21 avril 2011 - 03:09 .

[nos_astra]

@Sylvianus
I really don't see how ADDING something to a character to enjoy is comparable to TAKING AWAY from them.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[Alex Kershaw]

Yeah - Anders went from my favourite character in Awakenings (albeit that isn't saying much) to my least favourite in DA2 (again, hardly says much since I didn't like any of them). The biggest plot hole is simply that DAO and DA2 start at the same time, DA2 then has a year off and then Anders comes into it. That means that both DAO and DAA both happen in 1 year. Considering that DAA happens 6 months after DAO and we know that DAO took about a year, it simply isn't possible. Anders shouldn't be around for a considerably amount of time afterwards.

[The dead fish]

@ Klarabella. It is quite possible to be gay and heterosexual again after a few years.

[Russalka]

I could see him being attracted to men being suppressed or not shown, because Karl was his first love. His behaviour in Awakening would stem from being bitter towards caring too much, loving or settling down with someone and how the state of Circles wouldn't change.

His family did not care about him. Maybe Karl and him did not work out. Perhaps it was easier to be with women and be openly promiscuous about it because with men, it would have reminded him of Karl? It was easier to just not care what happens in the Circles. Much more happier to not just express or explore difficult emotions or situations.

Insert Justice, forgotten or held back emotions suddenly matter.

EDIT: Can sexuality truly be measured from what has been told by a person? We are free to believe or guess, but one can never tell.

And if stereotypes matter, how was cooing over a kitten and being rather flamboyant not obvious enough?

Modifié par Russalka, 21 avril 2011 - 03:26 .

[nos_astra]

Sylvianus wrote...
@ Klarabella. It is quite possible to be gay and heterosexual again after a few years.

I suppose so, it's called being bisexual.

But that was not my point.