196 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Celestina wrote...

Midnight Voyager wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I'd just as soon have Alistair explain something to me as read it in a codex or see a cinematic- scratch that, I would much prefer it.  Since he can also offer his own opinions on the subject matter, it works to personalize world and game information as well as give insight to the character.

I'm sad. 

I... did not like information being exposited in the codex at all. Them popping up after conversations did not help. "Wait, what, Aveline's married, when did-?!"

Heck, I'd rather a companion just SAY IT than have to read it elsewhere. Seeing it happen isn't so bad, but... The codex exposit dump just did not work for me in any instance. I still felt like almost no time had passed, not many years, and absolutely nothing that happened in the interims had any impact on me.

...To be honest, the only one I can think of off-hand is Aveline's marriage, but I heard plenty of that in speech, too. DID anything happen? I felt like we all sat around, eating toast and not talking at all. Fenris's romance hit me there. "We haven't talked about it since that day" ...Annd not by my decision, just because I tardised ahead. If we didn't talk about that for three years, what DID we talk about? The weather?

Er, in short: Cinematic "see things happening and be there" is fine. Codex is... ennnh.

(...Unless you mean the cinematics of Varric just summarizing everything, in which case... Ehhhh)

THIS. I felt like in order to really understand my companions lives, I had to open a menu and then read many pages of tiny font.

Entirely agreed. The codex in DA:O was all about the lore and had a lot of depth. It was very entertaining. In DA2, it just felt like a way to skip dialogue and not show things within the story. It was like plot post-it notes. Finding things out is much better when it comes out of interaction, but cutscenes like the ones between Loghain, Anora and Howe, where we're not present work, too. Doing it in the codex was the worst possible way to do it, removed from the story, and undermining what was fun about the codex in the first place, that it was extra lore that wasn't necessary for the plot. You didn't have to read the codex to know what was going on.

[Nyreen]

errant_knight wrote…many truths 

And when we articulate politely and specifically what was annoying about DA2 as you (errant_knight) did above…someone says we're asking for far too much. I would be satisfied with meeting somewhere in the middle. 

Modifié par Celestina, 22 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[WilliamShatner]

If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for character development anytime soon.

And if future DA games contain such shallow, badly written and plain unlikable characters like those you straddled us with in DA2 I have absolutely no intention of returning to the series.

Hopefully the poor sales and reception of the game will make you realize that people had a strong connection the original cast and were fundamental to the success of the games. Unlikely though.

[Nyreen]

WilliamShatner wrote…

Hopefully the poor sales and reception of the game will make you realize that people had a strong connection the original cast and were fundamental to the success of the games. Unlikely though.

The sad, sad truth. 

[Zjarcal]

WilliamShatner wrote...
And if future DA games contain such shallow, badly written and plain unlikable characters like those you straddled us with in DA2 I have absolutely no intention of returning to the series.

Hopefully the poor sales and reception of the game will make you realize that people had a strong connection the original cast and were fundamental to the success of the games. Unlikely though.

Yes because EVERYONE feels the same way as you do about the DA2 characters, right? I mean, no one out there could've possibly liked them or thought that they were well written, right? <_<

Modifié par Zjarcal, 22 avril 2011 - 07:56 .

[Nyreen]

Zjarcal wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
And if future DA games contain such shallow, badly written and plain unlikable characters like those you straddled us with in DA2 I have absolutely no intention of returning to the series.

Hopefully the poor sales and reception of the game will make you realize that people had a strong connection the original cast and were fundamental to the success of the games. Unlikely though.

Yes because EVERYONE feels the same way as you do about the DA2 characters, right? I mean, no one out there could've possibly liked them or thought that they were well written, right? <_<

He obviously didn't mean EVERYONE. 

[hoorayforicecream]

WilliamShatner wrote...

And if future DA games contain such shallow, badly written and plain unlikable characters like those you straddled us with in DA2 I have absolutely no intention of returning to the series.

Hopefully the poor sales and reception of the game will make you realize that people had a strong connection the original cast and were fundamental to the success of the games. Unlikely though.

It's not like the game flopped. They're still on track to sell 2 million copies for a game produced in 1.5 years. Given the cost to produce it, it's likely going to earn a decent amount for EA.

[Brockololly]

errant_knight wrote...
It's incredibly lonely to have friends/companions who won't speak to you, and makes whatever relationship is shown in cutscenes feel hollow, unreal, and removed from daily life.

Bingo!

Going out and about with the DA2 companions and hearing them banter and yet Hawke can't get a word out of them beyond generic barks just makes it feel like your companions are a bunch of carboard cutouts. Its the feeling of being left out- like the companion characters are having this great time trading stories, but the PC is stuck on the outside looking in, until you're given the ok to be let off your leash by the game to go talk to someone at a specific place, at a specific time, about a specific thing.

Without those smaller player initiated chats, you lack any context to place things like the larger companion quests, so the overall relationship begins to feel overly mechanical and artificial.

[Addai]

Langaer wrote...

In a word, for me personally, DAII is a very character-oriented game, in the sense that companions here are not an appendix to the Hero; they are independent and self-sufficient; they actively form the environment; they create the circumstances that Hawke has to react to. Of course, it therefore makes the game a bit less player-oriented, because Hawke cannot actually do anything to change the situation. S/he is caught in a whirlwind. Remember what Flemeth said when they first met: "Hurtled into the chaos, you fight... and the world will shake before you." Isn't it a perfect summary of the role our Hero has in this story?

Right, and that gives me no reason to want to be involved in their crap, apart from one or two of them who interested me in particular.  I have no reason to get in the middle of Merrill's clan drama or Anders' one-man war.

[Addai]

nightscrawl wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Even if I had been the one to write him, he most certainly would not have been the witty fellow you remember from Awakening... he's changed, in some very substantial ways, and if you're mourning the fact that he's different I can safely say that's very much part of the point.

I think this needs to be posted in every Anders thread.


While playing DAA and walking around with Justice and Anders in the party, the banter really shows how Justice influenced Anders's thinking about mages, their plight, and how Anders himself fits in with all of that. Is it really so much of a stretch to think that they would have even more detailed conversations offscreen, or that Anders would mature and change as a result of his experiences in DAA?

He didn't mature and change.  He got possessed.  The fact that he's already dead as of meeting him in DA2 is character development, but it's development that happened offscreen and has nothing to do with Hawke.  I can see the pathos of Anders' story, but only in a metagame sense.  It might as well have been a movie or short story.

Meanwhile, I still never learned about his family, how he was found out as a mage, his escape attempts, or any of the questions I had assumed would be delved into by having him as full-time party member in a complete game.  It was blah blah mage revolution blah blah the entire time.  This was necessary for the plot, but that is not the kind of person I want to spend time with.  Anders' humanity is already gone, and like the demon in Feynriel's quest says, Vengeance is a boring prig.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[Lady Olivia]

Throwing my two cents in, I’m definitely in the camp that thinks DA2 falls short of DAO and has a [large] number of flawed elements; but the writing, the dialog, the story and the characters – are simply not among them.

Putting the player in medias res, so to speak, making Hawke a part of the crucial moments that define the other characters is a powerful step ahead in terms of storytelling. Unfortunately, it seems to have been done at the cost of atmosphere and worldbuilding (the casual conversations and the party banter in DAO were often unrelated to the main storyline and so provided a wider perspective), and that’s an aspect I can’t defend. But other than that, I’d say character development and dialog in DA II compared to DAO is like a 15 minute piece compared to a two hour concerto. (I’ll hazard an example – Schubert’s Death and the Maiden vs. say, Mozart’s Grand Mass). Both contain the same amount of energy, only the shorter piece is more condensed and therefore stronger.

Whether DAO and DA II contain the same amount of energy in terms of writing? My answer is yes: DA2 is paced better, it's less formulaic, and melodramatic more dramatic. But I can certainly see why opinions on this are divided.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 22 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[Zjarcal]

Brockololly wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
It's incredibly lonely to have friends/companions who won't speak to you, and makes whatever relationship is shown in cutscenes feel hollow, unreal, and removed from daily life.

Bingo!

Hmm, I honestly didn't feel lonely at all in DA2, not once. Those random barks that you guys criticize I actually found endearing and made me like the characters more ("is the coast really wounded..." ).

But we obviously feel very different about this and that's been made clear for a while. 

[tmp7704]

Langaer wrote...

Of course, it therefore makes the game a bit less player-oriented, because Hawke cannot actually do anything to change the situation. S/he is caught in a whirlwind. Remember what Flemeth said when they first met: "Hurtled into the chaos, you fight... and the world will shake before you." Isn't it a perfect summary of the role our Hero has in this story?

No, i'd say that makes little sense. If you "cannot actually do anything to change the situation", why is the world supposed to shake before such a person, exactly?

[Lady Olivia]

tmp7704 wrote...

Langaer wrote...

Of course, it therefore makes the game a bit less player-oriented, because Hawke cannot actually do anything to change the situation. S/he is caught in a whirlwind. Remember what Flemeth said when they first met: "Hurtled into the chaos, you fight... and the world will shake before you." Isn't it a perfect summary of the role our Hero has in this story?

No, i'd say that makes little sense. If you "cannot actually do anything to change the situation", why is the world supposed to shake before such a person, exactly?

Probably had the "Hurtled into the chaos" part in mind rather than shaking the world part.

[tmp7704]

Well, if you look at it this way then yes, the fighting part was most certainly true if nothing else :>

ANOTHER WAVE!

Modifié par tmp7704, 22 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[monima]

nightscrawl wrote...

[

monimakitten wrote...

I so agree with this. Why say such things aboyut your own game? DA2 is not an overal improvement no matter what you say...

Maybe for YOU. It's still an opinion. Even if many people share the opinion, it's still subjective, therefore cannot be right or wrong.

I like DA2. I'm sorry you don't.

I am not the only one with that opinion. But its the fact that they talk about DAO as an inferior product to DA2, that annoys me. And its just us players  that dont understand their "vision". And I said an overall improvement, and I also never said I didnt like parts of DA2.  




either.

[Giltspur]

errant_knight wrote...

I'm really saddened to hear that we won't have anymore casual conversations with our companions, however. It wasn't how much was said, or what was said, its being able to return from a hard fought battle or a long quest and do what real people do--go up to someone you care about and chat just to hear their voice, because the fact that you're both still alive makes everything better. It doesn't have to be exposition, it doesn't have to be important. It could be a comparison of bruises, what to get for dinner, or a desire to do laundry. That doesn't matter. Of course, it would be best if the tone changed depending on the relationship, but it's the fact that you can talk that's important. It's incredibly lonely to have friends/companions who won't speak to you, and makes whatever relationship is shown in cutscenes feel hollow, unreal, and removed from daily life.

Sure, do character development with action--show not tell, and all that, but keep casual conversation, because that's what ties all that character development to an ongoing relationship, not just brief moments in a solitary life. DA:O was more involving than any game I've ever played, and I think the casual conversation, that could be done whenever you felt the need to connect with your companions, was a big part of that.

I agree about the need for casual conversation.  I liked the DAII characters and liked some of the things Bioware did involving companion quests, evolving banter over time, having conversations in new settings.  But one thing I missed from DAO (Camp in particular) was that feeling of camaraderie that comes from shared downtime in the midst of a an ordeal--especially in the romances.

Quiet moments where one chooses to talk to someone she's deemed important enough to spend her free time on are important to feeling a growing connection.

Maybe increasing the dialogue budget on "Questioning Beliefs" quests (as these are opportunities for the NPC to reflect, open up and possibly be influenced) and introducing more opportunity for casual conversations to the romances thoughout the course of the game (including after the "move in" stage that DA2 had) would help. 

Modifié par Giltspur, 22 avril 2011 - 09:21 .

[Nyreen]

tmp7704 wrote...

Langaer wrote...

Of course, it therefore makes the game a bit less player-oriented, because Hawke cannot actually do anything to change the situation. S/he is caught in a whirlwind. Remember what Flemeth said when they first met: "Hurtled into the chaos, you fight... and the world will shake before you." Isn't it a perfect summary of the role our Hero has in this story?

No, i'd say that makes little sense. If you "cannot actually do anything to change the situation", why is the world supposed to shake before such a person, exactly?

^ This.

By the end of it all, when I made decisions, I didn't feel powerful. Instead I felt apathetic and annoyed because I knew some crazy **** was gonna go down, no matter how hard I tried to play as a "good character".

Here are two examples:

I tried to save Grace, and she's all thankful and kind when I cover for her and lie to the Templars in Act 1. I was satisfied. And when she gets captured, (in ambient dialogue in the Gallows), she blames Hawke for her capture because Hawke didn't "supply" her well enough. And then later she tries to kill Hawke's hostage sister. 

Example 2

When the decision to save Bethany in the Deep Roads rolls around, instead of Bethany making her own decision to live or die, like a responsible adult, the developers give me the decision, so I can feel like Hawke actually has impact. 

And then Act 3 --> Bethany is all pissed at Hawke for "forcing" her into the Grey Wardens. <_<

She could either die, or join a greater cause, no matter how difficult it was, then Bethany gives Hawke the cold shoulder during Act 2. Oh but in the end she forgives me and we are BFFs! 



Don't try to explain it all away with the idea that the devs wanted the mage/templar decision to be tougher. Or that Bethany's responses were typical of someone who actually experienced what she did. Because if casual companion conversations are no longer an option, then neither should seeing Bethany as a a three-dimensional character be an option as well.<_<

(Note: This was all on my first playthrough)

Modifié par Celestina, 22 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[Brockololly]

Zjarcal wrote...
Hmm, I honestly didn't feel lonely at all in DA2, not once. Those random barks that you guys criticize I actually found endearing and made me like the characters more ("is the coast really wounded..." ).

Its not that I didn't like the banters ( I did!) its that they often had little reactivity  to the PC and as such made it more like being a nosey person overhearing things rather than being part of the crew.  You could say the same in Origins to some extent too, but again, I think there was far too much banter in DA2 when it was used as a primary means of characterizing the companions, which for me, doesn't work since its a 100% passive experience. I'd much rather have some  more low key one on one conversations that aren't necessarily all cinematic to flesh out the companions.

I just think a balance needs to be struck between the ambient banter, companion quests and player initiated and player directed conversation. Origins skewed towards the player directed stuff, which I loved, while DA2 went the other way in lots of banter and having all interactions tied to quests, leaving out player initiated/directed conversations.

[Morroian]

monimakitten wrote...

I am not the only one with that opinion. But its the fact that they talk about DAO as an inferior product to DA2, that annoys me. And its just us players  that dont understand their "vision". And I said an overall improvement, and I also never said I didnt like parts of DA2.  

Saying DAO has flaws that they tried to correct in DA2 does not mean they regard DAO as an inferior product, it just means it has flaws, as does DA2 obviously. If DA3 is done undoubtedly they will talk about DA2 in the same way they talk about DAO.

People are being oversensitive about DAO.

[Master Shiori]

Morroian wrote...

Saying DAO has flaws that they tried to correct in DA2 does not mean they regard DAO as an inferior product, it just means it has flaws, as does DA2 obviously. If DA3 is done undoubtedly they will talk about DA2 in the same way they talk about DAO.

People are being oversensitive about DAO.

This.

Considering how much time and effort Bioware put into making DA:O and how well it sold, it goes beyond any doubt that they're proud of that game. That doesn't mean, however, that there weren't parts of it that could have been done better or things that could have been done differently.

Same will be true of DA2.

[Zeevico]

Long conversations at the camp and elsewhere were actually quite good. DA2 character interaction feels bare by comparison.

Do you know how boring it is to just walk through the wounded coast with nothing to do but kill some mooks?

The environments may be boring and repetitive but the fact that you can't interact with NPCs, whether it be about a mission or just generally, adds a degree of tedium to this game.

That tedium isn't compensated for by the two-line fetch quests.

[nightscrawl]

Addai67 wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Even if I had been the one to write him, he most certainly would not have been the witty fellow you remember from Awakening... he's changed, in some very substantial ways, and if you're mourning the fact that he's different I can safely say that's very much part of the point.

I think this needs to be posted in every Anders thread.


While playing DAA and walking around with Justice and Anders in the party, the banter really shows how Justice influenced Anders's thinking about mages, their plight, and how Anders himself fits in with all of that. Is it really so much of a stretch to think that they would have even more detailed conversations offscreen, or that Anders would mature and change as a result of his experiences in DAA?

He didn't mature and change. He got possessed.

Some of his humor is still there though, and you can see that in conversations, especially those with Varric. You can even see him change throughout DA2, as he is more likely to joke around during Acts 1 and 2, but by Act 3 he pretty much refuses any attempts at levity. Ignoring those aspects of DA2 Anders is a bit unfair. Going the rival route is also much more dramatic, as you can see his self control getting more tenuous by the day.

Also, by making the original statement, I was referring to Anders's relationship with Justice. Justice didn't just hop into Anders without permission, Anders LET him do so and part of the reason was because he thought Justice would help him to be able to help all mages. He says all of this in the first conversation you have with him after the Karl incident. That had nothing to do with being possessed.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 23 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[Sabariel]

WilliamShatner wrote...

If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for character development anytime soon.

And if future DA games contain such shallow, badly written and plain unlikable characters like those you straddled us with in DA2 I have absolutely no intention of returning to the series.

Hopefully the poor sales and reception of the game will make you realize that people had a strong connection the original cast and were fundamental to the success of the games. Unlikely though.

"Saddled" not "straddled". Just... had to say that.

[Darth Krytie]

WilliamShatner wrote...

If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for character development anytime soon.

And if future DA games contain such shallow, badly written and plain unlikable characters like those you straddled us with in DA2 I have absolutely no intention of returning to the series.

Hopefully the poor sales and reception of the game will make you realize that people had a strong connection the original cast and were fundamental to the success of the games. Unlikely though.

Please, let's not go back to the mostly uninteresting characters of DA:O. My favourite companion was Dog...through every single playthrough. Dog, Alistair, Wynne and Zevran. The rest? Meh. I don't think I ever even had Sten in my party save for those five minutes of his quest. Now, DA:2 had really awesome characters and I enjoyed everyone and liked them all and changed it up a lot more.

Moreover, I agree with Gaider. Nothing more dull than sitting around party camp and spam-dialoging to learn about someone in one shot.