196 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Please, let's not go back to the mostly uninteresting characters of DA:O. My favourite companion was Dog...through every single playthrough. Dog, Alistair, Wynne and Zevran. The rest? Meh. I don't think I ever even had Sten in my party save for those five minutes of his quest. Now, DA:2 had really awesome characters and I enjoyed everyone and liked them all and changed it up a lot more.

Moreover, I agree with Gaider. Nothing more dull than sitting around party camp and spam-dialoging to learn about someone in one shot.

I don't think anyone is saying that we should go back to that system, since most of us have agreed that being able to become BFFs after a 10 min spam fest of dialogue makes little sense and isn't everyone's idea of fun.

One suggested compromise between the two systems was to keep DA2's quest-based pacing of dialogue for important conversations, but also allow for *some* extra non-essential flavour dialogue. Doesn't have to grant any points, exp or quests, just provide ambiance and the opportunity for people who like to talk to the characters to do just that. People who don't want to deal with extra dialogue wouldn't feel obliged to, especially if there were no mechanical benefits (approval etc).

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

He didn't mature and change.  He got possessed.  The fact that he's already dead as of meeting him in DA2 is character development, but it's development that happened offscreen and has nothing to do with Hawke.  I can see the pathos of Anders' story, but only in a metagame sense.  It might as well have been a movie or short story.

Meanwhile, I still never learned about his family, how he was found out as a mage, his escape attempts, or any of the questions I had assumed would be delved into by having him as full-time party member in a complete game.  It was blah blah mage revolution blah blah the entire time.  This was necessary for the plot, but that is not the kind of person I want to spend time with.  Anders' humanity is already gone, and like the demon in Feynriel's quest says, Vengeance is a boring prig.

You can see the pathos of Anders' story even if you haven't played Awakening. He's healing the sick for nothing, he has refugees willing to protect him with their lives because he's pretty much the only person in Kirkwall willing to help them. He has a cat that he clearly adored and was taken from him (which, I know you could care **** all about, but a lot of people find that sort of thing endearing). Then you go to find his friend, he's visibly shaken by what has been done to Karl and what he has to do to Karl. All of those are in neat contrast with the Vengeance Side of him and all of those things show his humanity. For Justice, caring about refugees and cats and Karl as a person are pointless. Anders wouldn't do any of those things if he was "dead".

If you're not interested in him, you're not interested in him. But to say that he's dead or purely Vengeance is the same as people who have a kneejerk dislike for Alistair and reduce his character as being a whiny follower or Loghain as being a paranoid regicide. Obviously there are people who see complexity where you see nothing but prig, but that doesn't mean he's shallow or a failure of game mechanics or not worth caring about. It just means you think he's a prig.

[tmp7704]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Moreover, I agree with Gaider. Nothing more dull than sitting around party camp and spam-dialoging to learn about someone in one shot.

No one is holding gun to your head and forcing you to do that in one shot. Certainly not the game itself, seeing how it allows you to have most of these conversations anywhere and at nearly any time.

[WeRtheBrox]

I'm not a programmer, but given everything else they can do, I don't see why they couldn't place restrictions on what Shadow called "flavour" dialogue to prevent "spam-dialoguing." Alistair only gave you that rose under certain game conditions, so why not, say, flag the convo about his time in the chantry not to unlock until after the Sacred Ashes?

[Nyreen]

 I should have never started this thread

Now Gaider won't accept my friend request! 

/sarcasm

Modifié par Celestina, 23 avril 2011 - 06:33 .

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

If you're not interested in him, you're not interested in him. But to say that he's dead or purely Vengeance is the same as people who have a kneejerk dislike for Alistair and reduce his character as being a whiny follower or Loghain as being a paranoid regicide. Obviously there are people who see complexity where you see nothing but prig, but that doesn't mean he's shallow or a failure of game mechanics or not worth caring about. It just means you think he's a prig.

As Gaider said- if you miss him, that's because he's already gone.  Edited to add:  There are vestiges of old Anders to be seen, sure, but they aren't going anywhere.  They can't- he's a one-way street.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If you're not interested in him, you're not interested in him. But to say that he's dead or purely Vengeance is the same as people who have a kneejerk dislike for Alistair and reduce his character as being a whiny follower or Loghain as being a paranoid regicide. Obviously there are people who see complexity where you see nothing but prig, but that doesn't mean he's shallow or a failure of game mechanics or not worth caring about. It just means you think he's a prig.

As Gaider said- if you miss him, that's because he's already gone.

Considering he's said in this very thread that he's changed and Hepler has said that there is some of the old Anders in him until the Mage/Templar conflict consumes him in Act 3, I'm pretty sure that "gone" is meant in a "drastically changed" way, not a "dead" or "consumed" way. If that's what you're trying to say.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 24 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[Addai]

I clarified above- there are vestiges there, but Anders can't develop because Anders is gone, and there's no way to bring him back. So he ends up being very one-note IMO. I suppose descent from possessed to bat**** possessed is some kind of development.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Addai--I don't know, I think Anders can develop. The unpatched DA2 botched it, but on a Rivalry path at least you can have Anders realise he's gone too far and side with you against the mages (though he says Justice is fighting against his decision). A lot of his fans don't seem to like this and prefer Anders as completely uncompromising, but I prefer to see it as Anders not being completely lost to the spirit's will and to vengeance.

[Blastback]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

But thats the thing- as much as I liked BG2, I thought Origins' conversation system was an improvement on BG2 and quite frankly, the best one BioWare has done as of yet. Sure it had issues if the player sat in camp and abused the system by spamming gifts and just draining the conversations all in one sitting, but thats surely able to be fixed any number of simple ways like gating certain conversations to main quest completion.

I agree. I'd rather have fewer companions and more conversations than more companions and fewer conversations.

Origins had more companions and more conversations than DAII. Or maybe it didn't. I don't know. But I only ever had real conversations with companions after one of their quests. I never talked to them just because. Origins had tons of unique "just because" conversations, and that was awesome. DAII had maybe one conversation per act.

The thing about DAII versus Origins is that, while I have a comparable number of options per talking point, there are many fewer talking points.

This. Thisthisthisthisthis.

Edit:
I honestly think Anders would have worked better if he'd been more like his Awakening self in the first act and we had been able to see him evolve into a more fanatical character.  By act 2, I'd stopped caring about him.  "Mages, oppression, blah, blah."  Honestly, he felt kind of one note. 

Modifié par Blastback, 24 avril 2011 - 06:23 .

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Addai--I don't know, I think Anders can develop. The unpatched DA2 botched it, but on a Rivalry path at least you can have Anders realise he's gone too far and side with you against the mages (though he says Justice is fighting against his decision). A lot of his fans don't seem to like this and prefer Anders as completely uncompromising, but I prefer to see it as Anders not being completely lost to the spirit's will and to vengeance.

How is that different from the state you find him in act 1?

[Aeowyn]

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Addai--I don't know, I think Anders can develop. The unpatched DA2 botched it, but on a Rivalry path at least you can have Anders realise he's gone too far and side with you against the mages (though he says Justice is fighting against his decision). A lot of his fans don't seem to like this and prefer Anders as completely uncompromising, but I prefer to see it as Anders not being completely lost to the spirit's will and to vengeance.

How is that different from the state you find him in act 1?

Really Addai, he does change from Act 1 to Act 3, and if you haven't noticed that then you haven't been paying attention.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Addai--I don't know, I think Anders can develop. The unpatched DA2 botched it, but on a Rivalry path at least you can have Anders realise he's gone too far and side with you against the mages (though he says Justice is fighting against his decision). A lot of his fans don't seem to like this and prefer Anders as completely uncompromising, but I prefer to see it as Anders not being completely lost to the spirit's will and to vengeance.

How is that different from the state you find him in act 1?

In Act 1 Justice can take over and kill the Templars.

In Act 2 Justice can take over and kill more Templars, plus the mage Ella if Hawke fails to stop him.

In Act 3 Justice can take over and order Hawke to leave if s/he is trying to convince Anders not to go through with his plan.

But when convinced to join against the mages, Justice does not manage to take Anders over for once. Anders can join the Templars against the people he once claimed he would kill anyone to free.

I'm not saying Anders is perfect--I have issues with how his story was executed and he could have used more development, but I don't think he stayed the same through the entire game.

[Addai]

Aeowyn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Addai--I don't know, I think Anders can develop. The unpatched DA2 botched it, but on a Rivalry path at least you can have Anders realise he's gone too far and side with you against the mages (though he says Justice is fighting against his decision). A lot of his fans don't seem to like this and prefer Anders as completely uncompromising, but I prefer to see it as Anders not being completely lost to the spirit's will and to vengeance.

How is that different from the state you find him in act 1?

Really Addai, he does change from Act 1 to Act 3, and if you haven't noticed that then you haven't been paying attention.

How so?

@Shadow:  In the rivalry path, Justice/ Vengeance takes over so completely that it's "him" who bombs the Chantry.  How does it make any sense that he just takes a back seat while Anders goes about annulling the Circle?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

@Shadow:  In the rivalry path, Justice/ Vengeance takes over so completely that it's "him" who bombs the Chantry.  How does it make any sense that he just takes a back seat while Anders goes about annulling the Circle?

Joining the Templars doesn't actually mean annulling the Circle.

And a lot of things don't make sense in DA2. Really, you should have been allowed to kill Anders if he loses control in Act II and murders Ella. 

I think Anders' character does progress, or deteriorate, or whatever. Perhaps it's just too little too late for most people, which is fair enough.

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

@Shadow:  In the rivalry path, Justice/ Vengeance takes over so completely that it's "him" who bombs the Chantry.  How does it make any sense that he just takes a back seat while Anders goes about annulling the Circle?

Joining the Templars doesn't actually mean annulling the Circle.

You join the templars after Meredith announces she is annulling the Circle, and you're helping her to do that.  I suppose you don't actually see Hawke and Co. walking around slitting throats, but that's basically what you're doing.  So, Justice is off on a smoke break while this is happening?

I think Anders' character does progress, or deteriorate, or whatever. Perhaps it's just too little too late for most people, which is fair enough.

That's pretty much what I'm saying.  The major character development happened in the limbo between Awakening and 2.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 avril 2011 - 03:36 .

[Wrathra]

I personally saw very little character development for Anders' in DA2. Most of it comes from knowing him in Awakenings and seeing the difference. He's pretty much a one-trick pony - "grrr, templars. GRRR, templars! GRR TEMPLARS!!!!!11!!" That was about it. After a while, I just wanted him to shut up.

I did like his character, but most of what I liked about him came from the combination of both Awakening and DA2, where I saw a complete picture. IMO, without metagaming, Anders is just meh.

Alot of the flirting dialogues pretty much cut off any other conversation options, so I wound up reloading the conversations to find out what he had to say. This is especially true in his act 1 conversations, where Hawke comes on to him like truck. During the first unspoiled playthrough, this was frustrating.

Not enough companion dialogue was one of the reasons I disliked DA2. I don't expect them to recite encyclopedias to me, but having a conversation about something other than GRR TEMPLARS!!! or whatever would have gone along way towards making certain companions a little more realistic, I guess?

[Corto81]

The main problem with companions in DA II, for me, apart from the fact you feel disconnected from them, is they all seem to have the cognitive process of 10-year olds.

Honestly, I was stuck with Isabela, Varric and Avelina, because they're open-minded (well, mostly Isabela and Varric) and somewhat "grey" in character.

Sebastian, Anders and Fenris all have completely one-track minds, and for my taste, whine way too much.
Alistair in DA:O was funny and and felt real when he whined... These guys just seem to whine non-stop to get their point across.

Merrill, on the other hand, seems well... A bit daft. There's naive, and then there's just dumb.
She's cute sometimes, but mostly her inability to grasp things completely annoyed me.

The romances feel... Not "real".
Everything feels detached... Yes, them having their own place makes sense, I can live with that.
But it wasn't done as well as it should've been.
Fenris sitting in a room surrounded by bodies for 7 years was just ridiculous.

DA:O had its flaws in that area, sure.
But you learned about your companions background, about their past, where they come from.
Leliana, Morrigan, Zevran, Alistair, Sten... Simply wipe the floor with the DA II companions.
In every single way.

And in the end, DA:O chatacters had spirit, had soul. Yeah, they followed you around, but for much better reasons than most of the DA II crowd.
And in the end, they each had their own personalities and you could end up in a confrontation with them (Zevran, Leliana, Wynne, etc.).

I hope BW goes back to DA:O ways in all but combat speed (without the ridiculous exploding bodies, waves of enemies, rogue summer-saulting in place, etc.) and certain other areas.
But story wise, plot wise, characters, the immersivness of the world, the "epicness"... DA II just didn't deliver as a sequel to DA:O.

IMO, DA3 does have the luxury of making certain (re)appearing NPCs into playable companions, like Cullen or Cassandra, who'd have an immediate following.
Just hoping they go back to RPG roots for it, not for an action game with RPG elements here and there.

Modifié par Corto81, 25 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Joining the Templars doesn't actually mean annulling the Circle.
[/quote]
You join the templars after Meredith announces she is annulling the Circle, and you're helping her to do that.  I suppose you don't actually see Hawke and Co. walking around slitting throats, but that's basically what you're doing.  So, Justice is off on a smoke break while this is happening?[/quote]

It's true you join the templars after Meredith calls for the RoA. But if it was an honest-to-Maker purge, you wouldn't have the choice to spare those mages who beg Hawke for mercy, and Cullen wouldn't side with you against Meredith's orders if you decided to let them go.

I think the fate of the Circle depends on what kind of Hawke you're playing.

[quote][quote]
I think Anders' character does progress, or deteriorate, or whatever. Perhaps it's just too little too late for most people, which is fair enough.
[/quote]
That's pretty much what I'm saying.  The major character development happened in the limbo between Awakening and 2.[/quote][/quote]

Or in the big 3 year time gaps. XD

[schalafi]

"The romances feel... Not "real".
Everything feels detached... Yes, them having their own place makes sense, I can live with that.
But it wasn't done as well as it should've been.
Fenris sitting in a room surrounded by bodies for 7 years was just ridiculous."

Yes, andI had issues with both romances, but particularly; with Anders, because my female mage romanced him. I had no problem with the love talk, the kisses, my character holding out her hand to him, inviting him to bed, but then... it looked like he leaped upon her with all his clothes, on, even his boots, and it fades to black! Come on, is this rated mature, or pg 13?, Couldn't they have even put in a scene where you could actually see their faces? And how come some romances had at least underwear showing, but not this one. It's not like I was hoping for full nudity, but It was a horrible way to end the love scene, and Origins did it much better.

Modifié par schalafi, 27 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[BBK4114]

schalafi wrote...

"The romances feel... Not "real".
Everything feels detached... Yes, them having their own place makes sense, I can live with that.
But it wasn't done as well as it should've been.
Fenris sitting in a room surrounded by bodies for 7 years was just ridiculous."

Yes, andI had issues with both romances, but particularly; with Anders, because my female mage romanced him. I had no problem with the love talk, the kisses, my character holding out her hand to him, inviting him to bed, but then... it looked like he leaped upon her with all his clothes, on, even his boots, and it fades to black! Come on, is this rated mature, or pg 13?, Couldn't they have even put in a scene where you could actually see their faces? And how come some romances had at least underwear showing, but not this one. It's not like I was hoping for full nudity, but It was a horrible way to end the love scene, and Origins did it much better.

Or how about when Anders is there - in Hawke's home - every friggin' time s/he comes home, but every time (well, except the 1st time in Act 3) you click on him he says something like, "I feel our cause may be lost."  

Stupid dialog, imo.  

How about talking about your perceptions of Captain Cullen or the Grand Cleric. Or even something like, "Well, nothing is going to be decided tonight so let's go make love like we're going to die tomorrow!"   LOL.

I'm just saying it really felt shallow, and as others have said, very one-note. Why is he there at all? Just to give the perception of them getting closer?  So sorry - that was an epic fail.   

[schalafi]

BBK4114 wrote...

schalafi wrote...

"The romances feel... Not "real".
Everything feels detached... Yes, them having their own place makes sense, I can live with that.
But it wasn't done as well as it should've been.
Fenris sitting in a room surrounded by bodies for 7 years was just ridiculous."

Yes, andI had issues with both romances, but particularly; with Anders, because my female mage romanced him. I had no problem with the love talk, the kisses, my character holding out her hand to him, inviting him to bed, but then... it looked like he leaped upon her with all his clothes, on, even his boots, and it fades to black! Come on, is this rated mature, or pg 13?, Couldn't they have even put in a scene where you could actually see their faces? And how come some romances had at least underwear showing, but not this one. It's not like I was hoping for full nudity, but It was a horrible way to end the love scene, and Origins did it much better.

Or how about when Anders is there - in Hawke's home - every friggin' time s/he comes home, but every time (well, except the 1st time in Act 3) you click on him he says something like, "I feel our cause may be lost."  

Stupid dialog, imo.  

How about talking about your perceptions of Captain Cullen or the Grand Cleric. Or even something like, "Well, nothing is going to be decided tonight so let's go make love like we're going to die tomorrow!"   LOL.

I'm just saying it really felt shallow, and as others have said, very one-note. Why is he there at all? Just to give the perception of them getting closer?  So sorry - that was an epic fail.   

Yes, just a few small changes could have made it really good, but I think the whole romance for females was rushed, and left hanging.