40 réponses à ce sujet

[commanderkai]

I'm not 100% sure if this is where to discuss mass guessing, but here goes.

I'm sure plenty of people realized that Mass Effect 1 Paragon Shep imported to Mass Effect 2 (specifically, saving Wrex, not killing the Rachni Queen, saving the Council) will have a lasting impact in Mass Effect 3. The problem, though, is by going through a Renegade Shep would usually result in more difficult situations. Bioware might have twisted this around during Tali's loyalty mission, though, where the Renegade decision would be best.

Throughout Tali's loyalty mission, the atmosphere looms about a possible war against the Geth to take the Quarian homeworld. Choosing the Renegade option (encouraging the war) would assumingly convince the Quarian leadership to put the Flotilla in preparation for the war. The peaceful option (Paragon) I believe would convince the Quarians to make peace, and settle on another planet. Of course, you would think that the Geth and the Quarians going to war with one another would be a distraction to the Reaper threat....

But wait, the Flotilla is the largest collection of ships in the known galaxy...except it's basically a massive refugee column. How many of those 50,000 ships are actually warships? Most, I would guess, operate to provide comfortable living conditions and enough food and supplies to sustain a massive population. if you encourage the Quarians to be peaceful, and find another world, a large number of their ships and population would be devoted to developing their new homeworld's infrastructure, consuming most of their attention and resources, and possibly even meaning that their military assets would be preoccupied with defending their new world.On top of this, the Quarians ample engineering and scientific knowledge would be focused on colonial development.

On the other hand, if you encourage the Quarians to go to war...what would logically happen? The Quarians would be training a good chunk of the civilian population to be soldiers. Their civilian ships would begin to arm and armor themselves to battle the Geth, their manufactories and research facilities would focus on better weapons and armor, instead of trying to adapt and terraform a planet to their immune systems. Putting a society on the war footing does not happen overnight, but usually takes months, even without taking training and recruitment issues into account.

Did putting the Quarians on the path to peace basically mean that the Quarians might not be able to commit to the war against the Reapers in full force? This is not to say that the Quarians will be out entirely, but a Paragon Shep might have made a decision that will hurt him/her in the long run, unlike most of his or her choices. At least, that's how I see it happening.

[commandoclone87]

We can definitely say that if they go to war, they will have fewer ships than if they didn't.

Damn, the next 6 months are going to be painful waiting for this game.

[zZ FeaRz Zz]

Hmmmm never looked at it that way. Good point. 6 months??!! Damn it

[Mozer121]

I think the most logical conclusion would be that there will be 3 different outcomes.

1. Solve Quarian/Geth dispute in favor of the Quarians, thereby gaining their fleet to aid in the battle against the Reapers.

2. Solve the dispute in favor of the Geth, thereby gaining Geth cooperation and assistance in reaper conflict.

3. Use Paragon/Renegade options to solve dispute in a way that both will favor and therefor gain the assistance of both.

I have a feeling there will be similar issues with the Krogans and Salarians. In my opinion these options make the most sense. Yay? Nay?

[Golden Owl]

Paragon Shep does ask the Quarian's to prepare for war though...He asks them not to go to war with the Geth, as the Reapers are coming and his going to need the Quarian's help....I'm more than sure thats what Shep was saying.

[Last Vizard]

Mozer121 wrote...

I think the most logical conclusion would be that there will be 3 different outcomes.

1. Solve Quarian/Geth dispute in favor of the Quarians, thereby gaining their fleet to aid in the battle against the Reapers.

2. Solve the dispute in favor of the Geth, thereby gaining Geth cooperation and assistance in reaper conflict.

3. Use Paragon/Renegade options to solve dispute in a way that both will favor and therefor gain the assistance of both.

I have a feeling there will be similar issues with the Krogans and Salarians. In my opinion these options make the most sense. Yay? Nay?

Yes however i think ME 3 will start from a blank slate apart from it being more difficult to have you cake and eat it if you told the quarians to make ready for war with Geth then rock up in ME 3 saying "sorry guys but there are Reapers here... can you turn the fleet around please?"

[Nashiktal]

If the Quarians go to war with the Geth, they simply cannot win conventionally. That fleet is a hunk of scrap close to three centuries old. (291 years)

There is a limit to how much you can retrofit, patch, and maintain.

[commanderkai]

Nashiktal wrote...

If the Quarians go to war with the Geth, they simply cannot win conventionally. That fleet is a hunk of scrap close to three centuries old. (291 years)

There is a limit to how much you can retrofit, patch, and maintain.

That can also be said for their potential ability to be an ally against the Reapers. Actually...more so. The Geth, all things considered, are still computers, albeit highly advanced ones, and the Quarians are said to be the best tech experts in the game. They might be able to fight the Geth more effectively compared to how Sovereign was beaten (which was tossing as many slugs as you could against the Reaper ship).

If the Geth would destroy the Quarian fleet, how can they stand ANY chance against the technologically advanced Reapers without really putting forth massive fleet upgrades?

Somebody mentioned earlier that Paragon Shep asked the Quarians to prepare for the Reaper threat...but look at the Council and how they treat the Reaper threat. The Quarian leadership will quickly forget Shep's request for more immediate concerns, aka survival.

[Nashiktal]

The Quarian fleet would indeed be shredded if used in conventional warfare, that is just how the cookie crumbles. One crippled reaper nearly wiped fifth fleet out after all.

However, Quarians can still help in other methods. Two that come to mind involve logistics (transport, supplies, directing ships in mass) and meat shields. (suicide using the larger ships as shields, skeletal crew)

An ally does not have to directly fight to be useful.

[commanderkai]

Nashiktal wrote...

The Quarian fleet would indeed be shredded if used in conventional warfare, that is just how the cookie crumbles. One crippled reaper nearly wiped fifth fleet out after all.

However, Quarians can still help in other methods. Two that come to mind involve logistics (transport, supplies, directing ships in mass) and meat shields. (suicide using the larger ships as shields, skeletal crew)

An ally does not have to directly fight to be useful.

True, forgot about the logistical usefulness for the Quarian fleet, though I have a feeling the Krogan/Rachni are ME3 meat shields. Quarians would be the mechanics/engineers/tech experts of any major force.

Still, any peaceful solution would mean that Quarian expertise would be focused on developing their new homeworld to house the millions of civilians with no useful skills, on top of the children and elderly who would not be in combat operations. The Quarian population might not get behind sending their limited resources into a major war effort when they have 300 years of people not caring about their plight either (though that can work out either way).

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing as a Paragon Shep, I'm just somewhat optimistic that there's a curveball somewhere, where the paragon choice isn't the best choice to fight the Reapers. History is ripe with examples where leaders who would be considered "Paragon" conducted "Renegade" actions.

[Tennessee88]

I am really hoping that most of the decisions will not have the predictable outcome. I like the idea of by encouraging war the Quarians and Geth are more prepared but the actual conflict hasn't begun. I don't want it to be obvious that I should of saved everything in the galaxy and been the nice guy. Nor do I think every action has to have an either or, and I really wish Bioware would implement an element of chance into certain choices.

For example if you saved the Rachni Queen... at first you have the Rachni on your side and depending on actions on ME3 there is a underlying percentage that they might or might not get indoctrinated mid way through. If you bring the Krogan up there is a chance they might or might not cause conflicts with other races making certain sections of the game harder/easier.

But above all I like that you point out that plenty of Paragons had to do the renegade thing. In fact I can't think of many great leaders who didn't have to do something the game would consider renegade.

Ultimately I am ready to the Paragon/Renegade system to go or be revamped, it doesn't make sense that killing the Rachni Queen falls under the same frame of mind that doesn't try to warn the Batarian colonist.

[Lupr]

I was under the impression that solving the conflict was basically going to be a 'let's all be friends and fight the reapers' kind of move, but now I'm not too sure.

[Anacronian Stryx]

The choices as i see them.

Encourage the Geth to wipe out the quarians = Geth joins you.

Encourage the quarians to attack the Geth = Geth wipes out the quarians and then reaches the conclusion the biological races can't get trusted and are a enemy for the rest of the game.

Encourage cooperation and peace between Geth and quarians= Geth join your cause and uses their massive production capabilities to refit the flotilla for war.

[Tennessee88]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

The choices as i see them.

Encourage the Geth to wipe out the quarians = Geth joins you.

Encourage the quarians to attack the Geth = Geth wipes out the quarians and then reaches the conclusion the biological races can't get trusted and are a enemy for the rest of the game.

Encourage cooperation and peace between Geth and quarians= Geth join your cause and uses their massive production capabilities to refit the flotilla for war.

This seems to most obvious and the easiest to write in. I am just hoping it isn't that simple.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Tennessee88 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

The choices as i see them.

Encourage the Geth to wipe out the quarians = Geth joins you.

Encourage the quarians to attack the Geth = Geth wipes out the quarians and then reaches the conclusion the biological races can't get trusted and are a enemy for the rest of the game.

Encourage cooperation and peace between Geth and quarians= Geth join your cause and uses their massive production capabilities to refit the flotilla for war.

This seems to most obvious and the easiest to write in. I am just hoping it isn't that simple.

These are just what i think will be the results, There can be myriad of difficult and surprising event's that leads to the results.

[commanderkai]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

The choices as i see them.

Encourage the Geth to wipe out the quarians = Geth joins you.

Encourage the quarians to attack the Geth = Geth wipes out the quarians and then reaches the conclusion the biological races can't get trusted and are a enemy for the rest of the game.

Encourage cooperation and peace between Geth and quarians= Geth join your cause and uses their massive production capabilities to refit the flotilla for war.

Eh, I don't think the odds are that much in favor for the Geth. I do think the Quarians have a good chance of succeeding. Remember when Legion was discussing the Heretics being 5% (I think it was 5%) of the Geth population...Geth are programs. Legion stated that you probably killed hundreds of thousands of Geth in Mass Effect 1 due to your destruction of their server hubs. On top of that, you had the choice to destroy the Heretic space station, thus removing 5% of the entire Geth population in one explosion. To compare to modern Earth, taking out 5% means killing every single person in the United States, and like any human nation, only a fraction of their population are actually soldiers.

Either way, Tali/Shep will play a HUGE role in this. Honestly, it's hard to tell how the Geth will play out. We only have Legion as our source of information. They're so isolationist that it's impossible to know how powerful or weak the main Geth force is.

[Anacronian Stryx]

commanderkai wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

The choices as i see them.

Encourage the Geth to wipe out the quarians = Geth joins you.

Encourage the quarians to attack the Geth = Geth wipes out the quarians and then reaches the conclusion the biological races can't get trusted and are a enemy for the rest of the game.

Encourage cooperation and peace between Geth and quarians= Geth join your cause and uses their massive production capabilities to refit the flotilla for war.

Eh, I don't think the odds are that much in favor for the Geth. I do think the Quarians have a good chance of succeeding. Remember when Legion was discussing the Heretics being 5% (I think it was 5%) of the Geth population...Geth are programs. Legion stated that you probably killed hundreds of thousands of Geth in Mass Effect 1 due to your destruction of their server hubs. On top of that, you had the choice to destroy the Heretic space station, thus removing 5% of the entire Geth population in one explosion. To compare to modern Earth, taking out 5% means killing every single person in the United States, and like any human nation, only a fraction of their population are actually soldiers.

Either way, Tali/Shep will play a HUGE role in this. Honestly, it's hard to tell how the Geth will play out. We only have Legion as our source of information. They're so isolationist that it's impossible to know how powerful or weak the main Geth force is.

The Geth are building a Dyson's Sphere, This pretty much the mother of all sci-fi mega constructions, If the Geth has the capabilities to build something so monumental then their capabilities has surely increased exponentially since the morning war while the quarians has obviously been standing still - If the quarians couldn't beat the Geth during the morning war then there is absolutely no reason to think that they can now especially since the Geth seems to have evolved quite a bit.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 21 avril 2011 - 02:02 .

[Nashiktal]

Not to mention that Geth do not have set "jobs" like organics do.

Their job is whatever platform they occupy currently.

[SalsaDMA]

Elves and werewolves, is what we will probably get.

[jamesp81]

commanderkai wrote...

I'm not 100% sure if this is where to discuss mass guessing, but here goes.

I'm sure plenty of people realized that Mass Effect 1 Paragon Shep imported to Mass Effect 2 (specifically, saving Wrex, not killing the Rachni Queen, saving the Council) will have a lasting impact in Mass Effect 3. The problem, though, is by going through a Renegade Shep would usually result in more difficult situations. Bioware might have twisted this around during Tali's loyalty mission, though, where the Renegade decision would be best.

Throughout Tali's loyalty mission, the atmosphere looms about a possible war against the Geth to take the Quarian homeworld. Choosing the Renegade option (encouraging the war) would assumingly convince the Quarian leadership to put the Flotilla in preparation for the war. The peaceful option (Paragon) I believe would convince the Quarians to make peace, and settle on another planet. Of course, you would think that the Geth and the Quarians going to war with one another would be a distraction to the Reaper threat....

But wait, the Flotilla is the largest collection of ships in the known galaxy...except it's basically a massive refugee column. How many of those 50,000 ships are actually warships? Most, I would guess, operate to provide comfortable living conditions and enough food and supplies to sustain a massive population. if you encourage the Quarians to be peaceful, and find another world, a large number of their ships and population would be devoted to developing their new homeworld's infrastructure, consuming most of their attention and resources, and possibly even meaning that their military assets would be preoccupied with defending their new world.On top of this, the Quarians ample engineering and scientific knowledge would be focused on colonial development.

On the other hand, if you encourage the Quarians to go to war...what would logically happen? The Quarians would be training a good chunk of the civilian population to be soldiers. Their civilian ships would begin to arm and armor themselves to battle the Geth, their manufactories and research facilities would focus on better weapons and armor, instead of trying to adapt and terraform a planet to their immune systems. Putting a society on the war footing does not happen overnight, but usually takes months, even without taking training and recruitment issues into account.

Did putting the Quarians on the path to peace basically mean that the Quarians might not be able to commit to the war against the Reapers in full force? This is not to say that the Quarians will be out entirely, but a Paragon Shep might have made a decision that will hurt him/her in the long run, unlike most of his or her choices. At least, that's how I see it happening.

Civilian ships refitted for war are not much better than just civilian ships.

Understand that there's a lot more to making a proper warship than slapping some shield generators and a few missile launchers on it.  A proper warship should have at least a primary and secondary hull (even modern sea going warships have this).  It should also have redundant critical systems.  A civilian ship, to keep costs down, will likely have little redundancy, except in ultra critical systems (life support, possibly propulsion).  A warship should have at least double, optimally triple, redunancy of core systems required to fight.  Redundant control runs, redundant power distribution, redundancy of command and control systems.  Every single compartment should be able to be sealed.  Armor plating should be placed intelligently to protect the most critical components.  The hull itself should be reinforced with redundant structural supports.

Another issue is propulsion.  Civilian ships propulsion systems will tend to maximize efficiency, whereas with a warship you need to maximize performance.

What all this adds up to is that doing a proper refit of a civilian ship into a military ship will cost far more than it would to simply build a new ship.  Civilian ships converted to military use would pretty much be death traps in a normal war.  In a Reaper war, you'd be better off loading gigantic bombs on them and going kamikaze as it would have a higher chance of success and about the same casualty rate.

[jamesp81]

Nashiktal wrote...

If the Quarians go to war with the Geth, they simply cannot win conventionally. That fleet is a hunk of scrap close to three centuries old. (291 years)

There is a limit to how much you can retrofit, patch, and maintain.

The Migrant Fleet might be large, but it's in no way a fighting force.  It's a defensive huddle consisting of ships that are, in many cases, unfit for habitation much less combat.

[NKKKK]

What you said or may not have said at the one of her trail will matter nothing, which means you have to use your actions.

[Nashiktal]

jamesp81 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

If the Quarians go to war with the Geth, they simply cannot win conventionally. That fleet is a hunk of scrap close to three centuries old. (291 years)

There is a limit to how much you can retrofit, patch, and maintain.

The Migrant Fleet might be large, but it's in no way a fighting force.  It's a defensive huddle consisting of ships that are, in many cases, unfit for habitation much less combat.

I think I already said that?

[KnightofPhoenix]

That requires a bit of metagaming. In ME2, we did not really know how soon the Reapers will arrive. It could be very soon, or in a few years. If it takes too long, there is a high risk tha the Quarians would go to war with the Geth. Especially if Admiral Xen (who is going to be very important) manages to create tech that tips the balance in their favor.

EDIT: I suppose one could play Arrival before, but it wouldn't make that much sense.
Furthermore, the paragon option does have Shepard tell the quarians that the reapers are coming. They may not believe Shepard, but I htink they'd believe Tali. Especially since they are experts on the Geth and Sovereign is clearly not Geth. Plus AIs are their nightmare, it's hard for them to dismiss it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[Td1984]

I am mainly Paragon. There are 2 times where I went Renegade:

1. Zaeed's Loyalty mission. I had done all the side-quests already and decimated all 3 merc groups. Figured I might as well sacrifice the workers and cut off the head of the Blue Suns by going after Vido.

2. On Legion's loyalty mission, I decided to kill all the heretics. Odds are, they probably won't be going to war with the Quarians. So *hopefully* that won't be an issue. Though, reading what you all have said so far, the Quarians likely won't be of much help against the Reapers one way or the other.