107 réponses à ce sujet

[SavesTheDay]

I think it doesn't matter that you decapitated her in your game because DA2 assumes that you killed her in a way that just left her mostly dead. The actual method of killing is not the issue, the issue is dead people coming back to life for reasons unexplained at this point.

[spacepopeadventures]

Agreed, except "magically revived through means not entirely known" isn't quite the same thing as "unexplained". I'm not sure what the "issue" with that is. Both examples have perfectly plausible explanations at arms reach ("Andraste did it", "Justice did it"). It's not like they had Oghren die and be resurrected.

[SavesTheDay]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

Agreed, except "magically revived through means not entirely known" isn't quite the same thing as "unexplained". I'm not sure what the "issue" with that is. Both examples have perfectly plausible explanations at arms reach ("Andraste did it", "Justice did it"). It's not like they had Oghren die and be resurrected.

I was mostly just trying to clarify what I thought everyone else was saying. I don't have an issue with Leliana or Anders coming back because I never killed them in any of my games and I meant "unexplained" because we don't know exactly how Leliana came back, so that's still open to speculation. I understood how Anders came back, Justice did it.

I suppose I could've been much clearer in my other post.

[88mphSlayer]

it was only a flesh wound

she got better

[Robtachi]

Mecher3k wrote...

I see Robtachi is filled with Derp.

Or, just maybe, it had something to do with having our choices matter?

The only crybaby here is you.

Wow, what a stirring defense of your viewpoint. Hold for applause. Any second now.

So a Blood Mage can reanimate a person from the stitched together body parts of multiple dead people, but a person can't be revived, decapitated or not, by unfathomable magical energy?

Awesome logic, guys.

Where was this outcry for Baldur's Gate II? Bioware even pokes fun in the dialogue at the retcon of Edwin (among others) being alive and recruitable in SOA after you've killed him in the first game. But why was that okay and this is not? Because Edwin was effing awesome and everyone was ecstatic to have him back and didn't care for the how/why/when.

Let's just all try to regain a grasp on rationality here.

Modifié par Robtachi, 21 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Galad22]

Robtachi wrote...

Wow, what a stirring defense of your viewpoint. Hold for applause. Any second now.

So a Blood Mage can reanimate a person from the stitched together body parts of multiple dead people, but a person can't be revived, decapitated or not, by unfathomable magical energy?

Awesome logic, guys.

Where was this outcry for Baldur's Gate II? Bioware even pokes fun in the dialogue at the retcon of Edwin (among others) being alive and recruitable in SOA after you've killed him in the first game. But why was that okay and this is not? Because Edwin was effing awesome and everyone was ecstatic to have him back and didn't care for the how/why/when.

Let's just all try to regain a grasp on rationality here.

That bloodmage didn't reanimate anyone, he failed to reanimate his wife.

What he did was able to keep one of those womans alive for a while in that stitched body.

And BG2 was done over 10 years ago. So different standards here you know.

[Robtachi]

Galad22 wrote...

Robtachi wrote...

Wow, what a stirring defense of your viewpoint. Hold for applause. Any second now.

So a Blood Mage can reanimate a person from the stitched together body parts of multiple dead people, but a person can't be revived, decapitated or not, by unfathomable magical energy?

Awesome logic, guys.

Where was this outcry for Baldur's Gate II? Bioware even pokes fun in the dialogue at the retcon of Edwin (among others) being alive and recruitable in SOA after you've killed him in the first game. But why was that okay and this is not? Because Edwin was effing awesome and everyone was ecstatic to have him back and didn't care for the how/why/when.

Let's just all try to regain a grasp on rationality here.

That bloodmage didn't reanimate anyone, he failed to reanimate his wife.

What he did was able to keep one of those womans alive for a while in that stitched body.

And BG2 was done over 10 years ago. So different standards here you know.

You're totally splitting hairs over details, and that's my point.  Everyone is splitting hairs over this Leliana thing.  If you killed her, you were SUPPOSED to assume that she remained dead and be SURPRISED to find her alive, not scream bloody murder at Bioware for bringing back a character presumed dead.

Was Tolkein a hack for bringing back Gandalf from presumed death?

[TJSolo]

Last I checked Gandalf had an explantion for his return/transformation that was explained to the reader/viewer within the book and movie once Gandalf returned. There was no need for fanfiction theories to explain it or an extended wait for canon from another story.

Modifié par TJSolo, 22 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[TEWR]

Galad22 wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Two is two too many.

This.

These are horrible plot holes, no matter how they try to explain them away.

You can't heal from decapitation, which was the fate of Leliana in some games.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will argue that a fancy killing animation is considered canon by people.


By that logic everyone I killed in DA2 exploded. It's there for looks, not to be considered canon.

[erynnar]

Robtachi wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Robtachi wrote...

Wow, what a stirring defense of your viewpoint. Hold for applause. Any second now.

So a Blood Mage can reanimate a person from the stitched together body parts of multiple dead people, but a person can't be revived, decapitated or not, by unfathomable magical energy?

Awesome logic, guys.

Where was this outcry for Baldur's Gate II? Bioware even pokes fun in the dialogue at the retcon of Edwin (among others) being alive and recruitable in SOA after you've killed him in the first game. But why was that okay and this is not? Because Edwin was effing awesome and everyone was ecstatic to have him back and didn't care for the how/why/when.

Let's just all try to regain a grasp on rationality here.

That bloodmage didn't reanimate anyone, he failed to reanimate his wife.

What he did was able to keep one of those womans alive for a while in that stitched body.

And BG2 was done over 10 years ago. So different standards here you know.

You're totally splitting hairs over details, and that's my point.  Everyone is splitting hairs over this Leliana thing.  If you killed her, you were SUPPOSED to assume that she remained dead and be SURPRISED to find her alive, not scream bloody murder at Bioware for bringing back a character presumed dead.

Was Tolkein a hack for bringing back Gandalf from presumed death?

I will tell you what I tell people I beta for in fanfiction, and what I expect my betas (and they have done) to do for me. IF I can explain in a logical manner the reasons for something, it stays. IF you give me a steaming pile of ****, cover it with sugar and tell me it's candy, I will roast you alive.  Tolkein explained what happened with Gandalf and it made logical sense in the story. But don't hand me a turd put a bow on it and expect me to ingnore that it's ****e. Not going to happen. I am willing to suspend my disbelief only so far.

And that is not splitting hairs, that is expecting the fantastic writers I know that BioWare has, and their fantastic devs. They have no one to blame but themselves for setting the bar so high, and they should be proud that they did. I admire them more than I can say.

Modifié par erynnar, 22 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[david46]

It will be interesting if having nothing to do with Leliana changes the character in DA2. My Dalish elf warden hated the Chantry and would not have anything to do with it or its followers.

[KLUME777]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Two is two too many.

This.

These are horrible plot holes, no matter how they try to explain them away.

You can't heal from decapitation, which was the fate of Leliana in some games.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will argue that a fancy killing animation is considered canon by people.


By that logic everyone I killed in DA2 exploded. It's there for looks, not to be considered canon.

The death blow is irrelevent. Lelianna being dead is canon, at least for my mage Warden. No matter what DA2 does. Unless it was implied in the first game that she wasnt dead or she will come back like Flemeth was implied, then she is dead. Dead and dead. Nothing more said. If DA2 revives her, it brakes the canon and immersion for me.

It was canon or an oversight for her dyeing in DAO.

[Sabriana]

Even though most of the screwiness in my play-through of DA 2 were bugs, it was still very jarring, and should not have happened.

Leli didn't die. She got on my nerves big time, and she hardly ever was in the active party, but I could never even imagine killing her. My warden did however, 'harden' her, and it was a head-scratch moment for me that she re-joined the Chantry, especially the Chantry's super-secret spy/police network.

Zevran certainly never died, but he has a specific ending in ALL my DA:O play-throughs. Simply not letting Hawke flirt with him took care of the Zevran bug. She was committed to Fenris anyway so that worked out.

Another "eh?" moment was when Hawke met Alistair the KING. In my import, he was a drunk. Oh well, perhaps Anora reconsidered, went out and found him and married him despite her earlier "ewww!"

I know nothing of Nathaniel and Anders/Justice because I don't own the Exp pack, and I won't in the near future, so it remains to be seen if those imports would bug out. In my import, I got the concerned father instead of Nathaniel, so that worked right. Even if I did get Nathaniel, it would still have worked, because Hawke certainly can have heard rumors about Arl Rendon Howe.

But that is just me, personally. I can see why people would be severely disappointed by the import/their canon being waved aside. There is far too much waving aside in the DA universe already, imo.

[Galad22]

Robtachi wrote...

You're totally splitting hairs over details, and that's my point.  Everyone is splitting hairs over this Leliana thing.  If you killed her, you were SUPPOSED to assume that she remained dead and be SURPRISED to find her alive, not scream bloody murder at Bioware for bringing back a character presumed dead.

Was Tolkein a hack for bringing back Gandalf from presumed death?

I am not.

Summoning dead people from beyond the grave is altogether different than keeping one woman alive. I am sure you can see the difference.

And if Bioware gives people an option to kill Leliana off, they should be prepared to deal with it, not resurrect her and say wizard did it. It is lame. In games if you kill someone and they are surprisingly still alive it just means that your choises have absolutely no meaning for the game world. So don't take books in this.

And Leliana never died in my games, I rather liked her.

Modifié par Galad22, 22 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[Turran]

Andrastee wrote...

Given that any dead Lelianas were killed in a cave containing magical healing ashes, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine several ways she could have been revived.

(Yes, your character just defiled those ashes, but given what Oghren says about the geology of the area, the magic may well be in the cave itself rather than localised in the Urn.)

I am rather sure you can kill her later in your camp aswell..

[spacepopeadventures]

Galad22 wrote...

And if Bioware gives people an option to kill Leliana off, they should be prepared to deal with it, not resurrect her and say wizard did it. It is lame. In games if you kill someone and they are surprisingly still alive it just means that your choises have absolutely no meaning for the game world.

The meaning that choice had in the game world is that you had to kill Leliana and lose her for the rest of the game.

Bioware deciding to bring her back doesn't undermine that meaning. In plot terms, you still killed her. In gameplay terms, she still left your party. I think the revived Leliana, if we could ask her, would not agree that her resurrection means that the Warden's actions carried no consequences. . . .

Seriously, were you upset to find Flemeth still alive? If not, why not? Just because you saw what brought her back?

I agree, however, that DA2 doesn't give the same sense of our choices having meaning that DA:O did. But that has very little to do with two people most players kept alive anyway, and everything to do with how the game railroads players into a near-identical outcome whatever they choose.

@SavesTheDay: Gotcha.

[spacepopeadventures]

scyphozoa wrote...

Just IMO, I don't care about the individual characters Leliana or Zevran. This is a matter of design philosophy that affects how the player experiences the game. If you undermine and contradict a player's choice, then you undermine every future choice that player makes in your games.

I like DAO and DA2, but I have not ruled out the possibility of my choices in DAO or DA2 being retconned by the writers for their own agenda. This skepticism did not exist before DA2 contradicted DAO.

So by principle, you have undermined the player's ability to make and believe significant choices. This is more important than any single NPC living or dying, this undermines the entire interactive element of choice and consequence in games that advertise choice and consequence.

When did it become compulsory for gamers and deisgners to think in terms of series rather than games? DA3 could retcon everything my Hawke did and it wouldn't make a difference to my DA2 experience (though it would sure give me a bad first impression of DA3). My choices in DA2 have a meaning that is fully expressed within the context of the game itself. I'm not going to choose to be mean to Merrill (when I want to be nice) simply because there's a possibility that the next game will tell me I was nice no matter what. And if I execute a character, I'm still the a-hole who executed that character, whether s/he stays dead or not.

Modifié par spacepopeadventures, 22 avril 2011 - 06:29 .

[randName]

KLUME777 wrote...

Two is two too many.

+1. especially when Leliana is one of the key people/companions in DA:O.

[RolandX9]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

And if Bioware gives people an option to kill Leliana off, they should be prepared to deal with it, not resurrect her and say wizard did it. It is lame. In games if you kill someone and they are surprisingly still alive it just means that your choises have absolutely no meaning for the game world.

QFT.

Galad22 wrote...

The meaning that choice had in the game world is that you had to kill Leliana and lose her for the rest of the game.

Bioware deciding to bring her back doesn't undermine that meaning. In plot terms, you still killed her. In gameplay terms, she still left your party. I think the revived Leliana, if we could ask her, would not agree that her resurrection means that the Warden's actions carried no consequences. . . .

Seriously, were you upset to find Flemeth still alive? If not, why not? Just because you saw what brought her back?

These are two very different things. From the moment you get back to Morrigan, she's telling you "no way she's dead, the woman hops bodies for a living." This was prepped and explained both before and after you "kill" Flemeth. It's also pretty clear that Flemeth isn't excessively worried about getting killed when you talk to her (though that could have something to do with her being, you know, a dragon ). Leliana is a human rogue with no supernatural abilities whose corpse you can loot.

If it doesn't bother you, fine. It does bother a lot of us. If Bioware wants us to invest in a world as well as the characters, and wants to go on about how "our choices have meaning" and trash JRPGs for not doing that, they need to be ready for fans to, you know, not like it when they make those choices meaningless.

Modifié par RolandX9, 22 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[Galad22]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

The meaning that choice had in the game world is that you had to kill Leliana and lose her for the rest of the game.

Bioware deciding to bring her back doesn't undermine that meaning. In plot terms, you still killed her. In gameplay terms, she still left your party. I think the revived Leliana, if we could ask her, would not agree that her resurrection means that the Warden's actions carried no consequences. . . .

Seriously, were you upset to find Flemeth still alive? If not, why not? Just because you saw what brought her back?

I agree, however, that DA2 doesn't give the same sense of our choices having meaning that DA:O did. But that has very little to do with two people most players kept alive anyway, and everything to do with how the game railroads players into a near-identical outcome whatever they choose.

@SavesTheDay: Gotcha.

Well I disagree.

And no I wasn't upset with Flemeth, because Morrigan thought you wouldn't be able to finish her off for good from the start. So it was expected. She is an absurdly powerful abomination as well, when on the other hand Leliana is quite normal human being.

[spacepopeadventures]

Fair enough. It was a bad comparison, sorry.

For myself, I can think of a few perfectly plausible explanations for Leliana's return, so it doesn't bother me that we don't get explicitly given one in DA2. I trust one is forthcoming. Of course, if we never get one (maybe because Bioware figures few enough players killed her for it to matter), or if we get an unsatisfactory one ("I took a death pill! You didn't check my pulse--silly Warden!"), that will change my opinion.

Though I still don't get the "my choices in DA n must be left intact in DA n+1" attitude. My attitude to it (which, of course, I understand not all share) cuts both ways: even if our final choice in DA2 matters hugely in DA3, I'll still maintain that DA2 failed to make our choices matter. As a game, it railroads us, even if we see implications in a sequel--just as DA:O's choices had real, satisfying (to me) consequences even if some of them were subverted in DA2. I want to see my choices make a difference to the resolution of the game I'm playing now, not the game I might get to play in a few years' time.

Modifié par spacepopeadventures, 22 avril 2011 - 07:13 .

[Sen4lifE]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Well... Leliana could be killed during the Urn quest. Anders may have never been a party member, and/or arrested by templars, and therefor could not have met Justice. So he was probably alive, but it still was a plot hole.

Why couldn't he have met Justice, hm?  He escaped the Templars many times before, he could've again, and could have met Justice apart from the Warden's story.

And for Leliana, well, she was laying infront of a magical healing urn.  Maybe some of the ashes were spilled on her? 

[astrallite]

Andraste said them all.

[Alex Kershaw]

I didn't murder 25 people - I only murdered 12!

*rolls eyes*