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[The Angry One]

Come now Sten is always a great source for insights into the Qunari.

Dalish storyteller: "Tells of how the Dales fell to the humans and how the elves surrendered."

Sten: "You should have fought! You should have fought to the last man for your freedom!"

Dalish storyteller: "And wouldn't your Qun do the same and demand that all submit?"

Sten: "That's entirely different!"

[Avissel]

The Angry One wrote...
Yep, Qunari don't negociate with bas.
I suspect their "negociation" with Orlais over the Tome was along the lines of "Give us the Tome and we won't shell your cities... for now."

I'm betting it went more like this.

Orlai: So...we got this book of yours...you want it back?
Qunari: Yes.
Orlai: So this will give us a nice diplomatic connection right? Maybe some peace talks, little negotiation? Show of goodwill right? right?
Qunari:.....
Orlai: Right! Great!

[hoorayforicecream]

Maybe I'm just weird, but the feeling I got was more like how the militant muslims reacted when that Florida pastor burned a Koran. It isn't necessarily a religious thing with the Qunari, but they are every bit as dedicated to the Qun as any religious extremist. They just don't happen to believe that it's because of a higher being or power that the Qun exists (which I believe is the requirement for something to be religious).

[The Angry One]

ajm317 wrote...

1.  Sten is a sten, not the Arishok, he is not a big picture person.

All in all Sten is far more lucid about the world than the Arishok is.
Where was his "big picture" when he demanded to take Isabela?

2.  The Qunari clearly do bargain.  The Qunari war was ended with a peace treaty.

Which they all deny is a peace treaty to them, claim bas did all the negociations and call it an irrelevant piece of paper.

3.  The Qunari clearly do not view the urn as having "intrinsic value" which is what Sten is stating here, but it would clearly be useful in dealing with people who thought it did.

Except Qunari view bargaining with bas as beneath them.

4.  Sten is not in a position to exploit the urn for Qunari goals here.  All he can do is mock the humans apparent reverence for the object.

And yet the Qunari view on these things is clear. Sten won't even feign respect even though he may very well be among a party of devout Andrasteans by keeping his mouth shut.

And remember, this Sten is their idea of an "ambassador".

[ajm317]

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised to see an Qunari-Orlais alliance in a future game. In terms of their relations with Thedas the Qunari are modeled on the Islamic nations relative to Europe, and the French had a longstanding alliance with the Ottoman Empire against the Habsburgs.

Of course the Qunari would only do this to further their own selfish goals, but it's not like the Orlesians would be in it to help out the Qunari either.

The Angry One wrote...

Which they all deny is a peace treaty to them, claim bas did all the negociations and call it an irrelevant piece of paper.

I don't remember any of that.  Where is that stated?

Except Qunari view bargaining with bas as beneath them.

Where do they state that?

And
yet the Qunari view on these things is clear. Sten won't even feign
respect even though he may very well be among a party of devout
Andrasteans by keeping his mouth shut.

And remember, this Sten is their idea of an "ambassador".

Why should he feign respect?  What are you going to do?  Kill him?  His personal beliefs are not relevant.

Sten has nothing to gain from the Urn.  An army of Qunari that captured it might.  Apples and oranges.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[Maria Caliban]

The Angry One wrote...

2.  The Qunari clearly do bargain.  The Qunari war was ended with a peace treaty.

Which they all deny is a peace treaty to them, claim bas did all the negociations and call it an irrelevant piece of paper.

Bargaining with the intent to break your word later on is still a form of negotiation. Negotiations don't preclude dishonesty.

[Rifneno]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

2.  The Qunari clearly do bargain.  The Qunari war was ended with a peace treaty.

Which they all deny is a peace treaty to them, claim bas did all the negociations and call it an irrelevant piece of paper.

Bargaining with the intent to break your word later on is still a form of negotiation. Negotiations don't preclude dishonesty.

That's great justification for breaking a peace treaty for the sole reason of religious conquest.

Oh no wait, it's a great reason for dropping a nuclear bomb on Par Vollen.  My mistake.

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maybe I'm just weird, but the feeling I got was more like how the militant muslims reacted when that Florida pastor burned a Koran. It isn't necessarily a religious thing with the Qunari, but they are every bit as dedicated to the Qun as any religious extremist. They just don't happen to believe that it's because of a higher being or power that the Qun exists (which I believe is the requirement for something to be religious).

It's different. There are millions of copies of the Qu'ran. And BTW, when Muslims want to dispose of a Qu'ran, they can only do so by burning it. So yea Muslims burn the Qu'ran when required. The point was that it's a political provocation (I personally didn't give a damn).

The way the Qunari act (risking open war) is as if there is one or very few copies of the Tome of Koslun. As if it's THE Tome of Koslun actually.

[JesterPsychotica]

General User wrote...

JesterPsychotica wrote...

Isabela stealing the Tome of Koslun to the Qunari would be like someone stealing the Codex Sinaiticus to the Christians.

Now see, that’s what I mean! I’ve been a Christian for years and I had to Google Codex Sinaiticus because I had never heard of it. 

Now the sect of Christianity I belong to doesn’t believe in relics and such, to us they are items of historical interest, nothing more or less.  Certainly not worth fighting a war over! I got the impression that the Qunari took a similar line of thought.

The Kossith might (That is, the race that the Qunari and Tal'Vashoth are part of). Just as there are different sects of Christians, there are different sects of Kossith. The Qunari follow the Qun, and the Tome of Koslun, is an important relic to those that follow the Qun. It infact, outlines the basis of their beliefs and the makeup of there society, as I am led to understand it.

[TobiTobsen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maybe I'm just weird, but the feeling I got was more like how the militant muslims reacted when that Florida pastor burned a Koran. It isn't necessarily a religious thing with the Qunari, but they are every bit as dedicated to the Qun as any religious extremist. They just don't happen to believe that it's because of a higher being or power that the Qun exists (which I believe is the requirement for something to be religious).

It's different. There are millions of copies of the Qu'ran. And BTW, when Muslims want to dispose of a Qu'ran, they can only do so by burning it. So yea Muslims burn the Qu'ran when required. The point was that it's a political provocation (I personally didn't give a damn).

The way the Qunari act (risking open war) is as if there is one or very few copies of the Tome of Koslun. As if it's THE Tome of Koslun actually.

I always thought that it is actually THE tome.  I don't think that even the Qunari wouldn't stay for years in a city just for a copy.

[ajm317]

It's never stated to the best of my knowledge, but I assumed there were many copies of the Tome but that this was the original penned by Koslun itself.

I assumed Orlesian soldiers captured it during the Exalted Marches.

[Rifneno]

TobiTobsen wrote...

I always thought that it is actually THE tome.  I don't think that even the Qunari wouldn't stay for years in a city just for a copy.

Sure they would.  If you read it backwards, skipping every 3rd letter, it gives the recipe for black powder.  ...  Or is it the recipe for the colonel's 11 secret herbs and spices?  I can never remember.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ajm317 wrote...

It's never stated to the best of my knowledge, but I assumed there were many copies of the Tome but that this was the original penned by Koslun itself.

I assumed Orlesian soldiers captured it during the Exalted Marches.

The Orlesians never reached Par Vollen. Why would the Qunari have their Tome in the front lines?

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maybe I'm just weird, but the feeling I got was more like how the militant muslims reacted when that Florida pastor burned a Koran. It isn't necessarily a religious thing with the Qunari, but they are every bit as dedicated to the Qun as any religious extremist. They just don't happen to believe that it's because of a higher being or power that the Qun exists (which I believe is the requirement for something to be religious).

It's different. There are millions of copies of the Qu'ran. And BTW, when Muslims want to dispose of a Qu'ran, they can only do so by burning it. So yea Muslims burn the Qu'ran when required. The point was that it's a political provocation (I personally didn't give a damn).

The way the Qunari act (risking open war) is as if there is one or very few copies of the Tome of Koslun. As if it's THE Tome of Koslun actually.

It is the tome, actually. That's why it's such a big deal to them, and why one of the Qunari triumvirate was after it.

What I meant by bringing up the Florida Pastor issue was that the response of the militant muslims is about on par with what I'd expect the Qunari response would be to somebody defacing the tome of koslun. I could be wrong about that, of course, but if the Qunari really weren't as concerned with physical things (e.g. the body doesn't matter once somebody dies), they probably wouldn't care so much about the actual tome.

[TobiTobsen]

Rifneno wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

I always thought that it is actually THE tome.  I don't think that even the Qunari wouldn't stay for years in a city just for a copy.

Sure they would.  If you read it backwards, skipping every 3rd letter, it gives the recipe for black powder.  ...  Or is it the recipe for the colonel's 11 secret herbs and spices?  I can never remember.

Ha... would be interesting to know how many Qunari lives the Tome was worth. The recipe of the gas... 3 Qunari, if I remember correctly.

[ajm317]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

It's never stated to the best of my knowledge, but I assumed there were many copies of the Tome but that this was the original penned by Koslun itself.

I assumed Orlesian soldiers captured it during the Exalted Marches.

The Orlesians never reached Par Vollen. Why would the Qunari have their Tome in the front lines?

I have no idea.  Maybe it's a good luck charm on the battlefield.

The Qunari once held a sizeable piece of Thedas at any rate.  Just because it's not on Par Vollen doesn't mean it's on the front.  Maybe there was a daring raid into the rear areas or something.

[TobiTobsen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

It's never stated to the best of my knowledge, but I assumed there were many copies of the Tome but that this was the original penned by Koslun itself.

I assumed Orlesian soldiers captured it during the Exalted Marches.

The Orlesians never reached Par Vollen. Why would the Qunari have their Tome in the front lines?

I have no idea. Maybe to enlighten the new converts about the Qun with THE relic? As a inspiration for the troops? Probably just because the Qun demanded it

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 21 avril 2011 - 06:11 .

[Rifneno]

Come to think of it, is there any way to have Isabela come back with the tome and not let the Qunari make off with it?  I don't like losing Isabela but I adamantly feel those murdering scum don't deserve their tome after what they did.

[hoorayforicecream]

Rifneno wrote...

Come to think of it, is there any way to have Isabela come back with the tome and not let the Qunari make off with it?  I don't like losing Isabela but I adamantly feel those murdering scum don't deserve their tome after what they did.

Sadly, the answer is no. I wanted to do that too.

[TobiTobsen]

They take it with them even of you decline the duel?

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Come to think of it, is there any way to have Isabela come back with the tome and not let the Qunari make off with it?  I don't like losing Isabela but I adamantly feel those murdering scum don't deserve their tome after what they did.

Sadly, the answer is no. I wanted to do that too.

Good God.  I know they tie our hands a lot with not giving decisions but it's mostly because the plot demands it for the next game...  Isabela can already wind up the tome, why not give us some option to let her keep it, or have the city of Kirkwall keep it and Isabela re-steal it because the plot demands it so, or something?  There's no good reason to make us reward those horned filth.

[ajm317]

Rifneno wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Come to think of it, is there any way to have Isabela come back with the tome and not let the Qunari make off with it?  I don't like losing Isabela but I adamantly feel those murdering scum don't deserve their tome after what they did.

Sadly, the answer is no. I wanted to do that too.

Good God.  I know they tie our hands a lot with not giving decisions but it's mostly because the plot demands it for the next game...  Isabela can already wind up the tome, why not give us some option to let her keep it, or have the city of Kirkwall keep it and Isabela re-steal it because the plot demands it so, or something?  There's no good reason to make us reward those horned filth.

Giving the tome back isn't Hawkes decision.  It's Isabellas.  It'd be like saying "Why can't Hawke elect not to blow up the Chantry?" 

[Rifneno]

ajm317 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Come to think of it, is there any way to have Isabela come back with the tome and not let the Qunari make off with it?  I don't like losing Isabela but I adamantly feel those murdering scum don't deserve their tome after what they did.

Sadly, the answer is no. I wanted to do that too.

Good God.  I know they tie our hands a lot with not giving decisions but it's mostly because the plot demands it for the next game...  Isabela can already wind up the tome, why not give us some option to let her keep it, or have the city of Kirkwall keep it and Isabela re-steal it because the plot demands it so, or something?  There's no good reason to make us reward those horned filth.

Giving the tome back isn't Hawkes decision.  It's Isabellas.  It'd be like saying "Why can't Hawke elect not to blow up the Chantry?" 

I don't think she was doing it for the benefit of the qunari, but for the benefit of the humans, Hawke included.  Besides it's not like it'd be the first time Hawke kills everyone in the room to get what he wants.  The Chantry's boom couldn't be solved by going OJ Simpson on anything, this can.

[ajm317]

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think she was doing it for the benefit of the qunari, but for the benefit of the humans, Hawke included.

I agree, but still, her book her call.

Besides it's not like it'd be the first time Hawke kills everyone in the room to get what he wants.  The Chantry's boom couldn't be solved by going OJ Simpson on anything, this can.

It would kind of cheapen the moment as a vessel for Isabellas character development.  This is where she demonstrates she learns to take responsibility for her actions, having Hawke say "You know what, screw it, let's just kill them all instead" takes away from that in my opinion.

[Saephy]

TobiTobsen wrote...
Ha... would be interesting to know how many Qunari lives the Tome was worth. The recipe of the gas... 3 Qunari, if I remember correctly.

Actually that was the fake gas too 
The Arishok says if the real Gaatlok had been on the line the Qun would demand they fought to the last of them.

I thought it was the original book too, but I was curious as to how they lost it to begin with?
Isabela says that she stole it from the Orlesians when they were en route to deliver it to the Qunari, but how did the Qunari lose it in the first place?