167 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Saephy wrote...
the original book too, but I was curious as to how they lost it to begin with?
Isabela says that she stole it from the Orlesians when they were en route to deliver it to the Qunari, but how did the Qunari lose it in the first place?

The Orlesians managed to snag it during the last Exalted March.

[ajm317]

Saephy wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
Ha... would be interesting to know how many Qunari lives the Tome was worth. The recipe of the gas... 3 Qunari, if I remember correctly.

Actually that was the fake gas too 
The Arishok says if the real Gaatlok had been on the line the Qun would demand they fought to the last of them.

I thought it was the original book too, but I was curious as to how they lost it to begin with?
Isabela says that she stole it from the Orlesians when they were en route to deliver it to the Qunari, but how did the Qunari lose it in the first place?

I really think the only credible explanation is that the Orlesians took it in battle.  Given how much the Qunari value the thing it's not like they could just check it out of the Par Vollen public library.

How they did that we don't know.  It does seem pretty implausible, given that the Qunari are depicted as making an orderly retreat that left them in control of the islands far in the rear area, but I think it's ultimately a minor quible compared to some other questions we can ask about the series.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 06:36 .

[Saephy]

Alright, thanks, I was just curious as I got the impression the last Exalted March was quite some time ago

Have the Orlesians just been sitting on the book for a long while and suddenly one day figured "hey let´s give it back" or is my timeline somewhat off?

Modifié par Saephy, 21 avril 2011 - 06:47 .

[ajm317]

Saephy wrote...
Alright, thanks, I was just curious as I got the impression the last Exalted March was quite some time ago

It was, but I don't think the Orlesians were in any great hurry to give it back.

Have
the Orlesians just been sitting on the book for a long while and
suddenly one day figured "hey let´s give it back" or is my timeline
somewhat off?

The Orlesians probably feel they have something to gain from this.  What isn't clear at this time. 

Or maybe it's the personal whims of the current Empress.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[The Angry One]

ajm317 wrote...

I don't remember any of that.  Where is that stated?

Banter between Sten and Alistair.
Sten states that the treaty only exists because humans believe in it, and the only thing holding back a Qunari invasion is the Qunari themselves.

Where do they state that?

Did you somehow get a different impression from the Arishok?

Why should he feign respect?  What are you going to do?  Kill him?  His personal beliefs are not relevant.

Sten has nothing to gain from the Urn.  An army of Qunari that captured it might.  Apples and oranges.

It's called tact. The Qunari would do well to learn the concept.
Also, hypocrisy. How would a Qunari react if I called their precious tome a waste of a perfectly good tree?

[hoorayforicecream]

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think she was doing it for the benefit of the qunari, but for the benefit of the humans, Hawke included.  Besides it's not like it'd be the first time Hawke kills everyone in the room to get what he wants.  The Chantry's boom couldn't be solved by going OJ Simpson on anything, this can.

While I agree with the other fella who said that it would detract from Isabela's character moment, I would also point out that Hawke didn't seem to care about the tome particularly up to that point, and there's still a lot more Qunari that hadn't been dealt with. Giving the tome up would end up saving a lot of lives, since it seems doubtful the remaining Qunari in the city would remain idle while Hawke hunted them down.

[The Angry One]

It would've been nice to at least have the option - if you don't duel and kill everyone to keep the tome.
With their leader and commanders dead the remaining Qunari would be ineffective. Sure, civilians would die in the continued fighting but let that be up to Hawke.

[ajm317]

The Angry One wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

I don't remember any of that.  Where is that stated?

Banter between Sten and Alistair.
Sten states that the treaty only exists because humans believe in it, and the only thing holding back a Qunari invasion is the Qunari themselves.

Don't recall that.  At any rate, the codex clearly describes a treaty, I can't imagine the Andrastian nations negotiated it by talking to themselves.  Even if the Qunari do not intend to honor it they clearly found it convenient, since they didn't break it (until DA2).

Where do they state that?

Did you somehow get a different impression from the Arishok?

Yes.  The Arishok negotiates several times during the story.  What do you think all those conversations with Hawke were?  If he had no interest in negotiating he wouldn't have even let you in the compound.

He's not very polite, and arguably deceitful, but he listens, for a while.

He does tell that Dwarf to stuff it, but why would he give up the secret of gunpowder?  He's not an idiot.

It's called tact. The Qunari would do well to learn the concept.
Also, hypocrisy. How would a Qunari react if I called their precious tome a waste of a perfectly good tree?

Tact is irrelevant to the discussion.  I never claimed the Qunari were tactful.

Hypocrisy isn't relevant either, although this is not actually hypocrisy.  The Qunari are moral absolutists.  The Qun is right, everything else is wrong.  Calling the Urn dirt and denigrating the Tome are thus not equivalent.  You may think it's bonkers, but its not hypocrisy.  The Qunari never said all beliefs are worthy of respect.  Only the Qun is worthy of respect.  They're crystal clear on that.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[Rifneno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't think she was doing it for the benefit of the qunari, but for the benefit of the humans, Hawke included.  Besides it's not like it'd be the first time Hawke kills everyone in the room to get what he wants.  The Chantry's boom couldn't be solved by going OJ Simpson on anything, this can.

While I agree with the other fella who said that it would detract from Isabela's character moment, I would also point out that Hawke didn't seem to care about the tome particularly up to that point, and there's still a lot more Qunari that hadn't been dealt with. Giving the tome up would end up saving a lot of lives, since it seems doubtful the remaining Qunari in the city would remain idle while Hawke hunted them down.

Hawke can sell Fenris back into slavery or give Meredith to okay to execute his crying and defenseless sister.  I think he should be able to refuse to give some murderers what they demand.  Besides, it's not like every qunari in the city will instantly know their cowardly leader got their toilet paper back.

[The Angry One]

ajm317 wrote...


Don't recall that.  At any rate, the codex clearly describes a treaty, I can't imagine the Andrastian nations negotiated it by talking to themselves.  Even if the Qunari do not intend to honor it they clearly found it convenient, since they didn't break it (until DA2).

Why not? Javarik did just that.
All that had to have happened is the humans draw up a treaty and the Qunari who were already retreating say "whatever".

Yes.  The Arishok negotiates several times during the story.  What do you think all those conversations with Hawke were?  If he had no interest in negotiating he wouldn't have even let you in the compound.

He's not very polite, and arguably deceitful, but he listens, for a while.

He does tell that Dwarf to stuff it, but why would he give up the secret of gunpowder?  He's not an idiot.

He talks with Hawke because he personally can come to like Hawke.
It's also less bargaining and more "Do this, or else." Most of the time he's simply providing information anyway.

Tact is irrelevant to the discussion.  I never claimed the Qunari were tactful.

Hypocrisy isn't relevant either, although this is not actually hypocrisy.  The Qunari are moral absolutists.  The Qun is right, everything else is wrong.  Calling the Urn dirt and denigrating the Tome are thus not equivalent.  You may think it's bonkers, but its not hypocrisy.  The Qunari never said all beliefs are worthy of respect.  Only the Qun is worthy of respect.  They're crystal clear on that.

And that's what makes them reprihensible.

[ajm317]

The Angry One wrote...

Why not? Javarik did just that.
All that had to have happened is the humans draw up a treaty and the Qunari who were already retreating say "whatever".

Javarik isn't a nation state.  He's a delusional Dwarf.

The nations of Thedas wouldn't call it a treaty if the Qunari didn't at least indicate that it met their needs for the time being.  The codex entry for the treaty notes it was signed on a neutral island, implying that some Qunari were at least present (other wise why bother with a nuetral site?)

He talks with Hawke because he personally can come to like Hawke.
It's also less bargaining and more "Do this, or else." Most of the time he's simply providing information anyway.

1.  He talks to Hawke even if he hates him.
2.  He does agree not to torch things while Hawke investigates the loss of his envoys.
3.  Come to think of it, he has bloody envoys.
4.  "Do this or else" is a form of negotiation.  It's a one sided form, but a form nonetheless.  The Arishok could have elected to simply go with "or else".
5.  What do you call the Arishoks voluntary withdraw from Kirwall if not negotiation?  We give you the tome and Isabella, you leave.  He agrees.

And that's what makes them reprihensible.

Never said they weren't reprehensible.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 07:13 .

[The Angry One]

ajm317 wrote...

Javarik isn't a nation state.  He's a delusional Dwarf.

The nations of Thedas wouldn't call it a treaty if the Qunari didn't at least indicate that it met their needs for the time being.  The codex entry for the treaty notes it was signed on a neutral island, implying that some Qunari were at least present (other wise why bother with a nuetral site?)

That they sent someone to sign it doesn't mean that they had any significant part in drawing it up.

1.  He talks to Hawke even if he hates him.

Hawke is still worthy of notice and admiration to the Arishok either way to begin with.

2.  He does agree not to torch things while Hawke investigates the loss of his envoys.
3.  Come to think of it, he has bloody envoys.

Used in a ploy to give himself more ammunition to attack Kirkwall.

4.  "Do this or else" is a form of negotiation.  It's a one sided form, but a form nonetheless.  The Arishok could have elected to simply go with "or else".

It was not in the Arishok's interests to have the whole city flooded with Saarqamek, it would bring uneeded attention to him.

5.  What do you call the Arishoks voluntary withdraw from Kirwall if not negotiation?  We give you the tome and Isabella, you leave.  He agrees.

That is not negotiation. You give him the tome and Isabela. There's no room for debate or compromise. Either the Arishok gets everything he wants or he throws a tantrum.
He leaves because he always intended to leave with the tome.

Modifié par The Angry One, 21 avril 2011 - 07:19 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

Tome of Koslun = Ark of the Covenant.

Without the white light and immediate death.

EDIT:  I should clarify.  Symbolically the Tome of Koslun is equal to the Ark of the Covenant not making any comparisons between the religion and the philosophy.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 21 avril 2011 - 07:37 .

[ajm317]

The Angry One wrote...
That they sent someone to sign it doesn't mean that they had any significant part in drawing it up.

In such a scenario they still signed it.  That implies some level of agreement.  Someone saying "this is what I think we should do" and you saying "that is acceptable" is negotiation, even if it's a pretty brief one.

Used in a ploy to give himself more ammunition to attack Kirkwall.

Yes.

His negotiation was a ploy.  This statement still implies the existence of negotiation.

That is not negotiation.

Now you're just being silly.  It was clearly a negotiation.  The Arishok agreed not to burn the city to the ground.  Hawke gave him the book and Isabella.  There was discussion, both sides got what they wanted and they came to an agreement.  That's negotiation.

Is it only negotiation to you if the Qunari surrender?  I mean where are the goal posts here?  Compromise isn't even a necessary component of negotiation.  If two sides meet and decide they cannot agree, they still negotiated, the negotiation just wasn't successful. 

[Emergent System]

ajm317 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Avissel wrote...

Well thats hardly fair to say.
You think The average believer of the maker would care about The Tome of Kuslan? Importance is relative.

The Orlesians preserved it all this time.
Even if it was just as a bargaining chip, the point is they were aware of it's importance to somebody.
It the Arishok came across the Urn he'd most likely empty it and use it as a privvy.

The Arishok is quite practical.  If he thought the Urn could be used as a bargaining chip he would probably do so.  "The Qunari waste nothing" as Fenris says.

The Arishok is obviously not practical at all. He though it would be a cool idea to burn a city to the ground because it didn't please his philosophical inclinations. Even though I offered to get him the tome (isabella ran off with it, but I knew where she was going) he still decided he wanted to burn down the city instead of waiting a little longer for the tome.

He also obviously doesn't care about or have respect for anybody. Even when Hawke earns his 'respect' he goes out of his way to constantly insult him. That is not being practical.

[ajm317]

Emergent System wrote...

The Arishok is obviously not practical at all. He though it would be a cool idea to burn a city to the ground because it didn't please his philosophical inclinations. Even though I offered to get him the tome (isabella ran off with it, but I knew where she was going) he still decided he wanted to burn down the city instead of waiting a little longer for the tome.

It depends on the context really.  The Qunari are practical in their treatment of people and objects for the most part.  They are not practical when it comes to the Qun.  If the Qun dictates something the Qunari will go to impractical lengths to obey the Qun.

He also obviously doesn't care about or have respect for anybody. Even when Hawke earns his 'respect' he goes out of his way to constantly insult him. That is not being practical.

I frankly don't see how insulting Hawke and practicality are in any way connected.  You can be a jerk and still be practical.  Practical jerks I think they're called.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 07:42 .

[hoorayforicecream]

ajm317 wrote...

In such a scenario they still signed it.  That implies some level of agreement.  Someone saying "this is what I think we should do" and you saying "that is acceptable" is negotiation, even if it's a pretty brief one.

Somehow, in my head this is what happened: "Aarvarad, I have a task for you. Go and scribble something on the piece of paper on the appointed day, in order to make the Bas to stop wasting our time with their ceaseless entreaties."

[ajm317]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

In such a scenario they still signed it.  That implies some level of agreement.  Someone saying "this is what I think we should do" and you saying "that is acceptable" is negotiation, even if it's a pretty brief one.

Somehow, in my head this is what happened: "Aarvarad, I have a task for you. Go and scribble something on the piece of paper on the appointed day, in order to make the Bas to stop wasting our time with their ceaseless entreaties."

Well first of all if that was really all there was to it then there's no reason they would have followed it for so long.

Second of all, if the Qunari really do not negotiate then there is no reason any entreaties need to waste their time.  Send a few envoys off to forced labor camps and they'll stop sending them eventually.  Even if they don't, who cares?  More free labor.

[hoorayforicecream]

ajm317 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

In such a scenario they still signed it.  That implies some level of agreement.  Someone saying "this is what I think we should do" and you saying "that is acceptable" is negotiation, even if it's a pretty brief one.

Somehow, in my head this is what happened: "Aarvarad, I have a task for you. Go and scribble something on the piece of paper on the appointed day, in order to make the Bas to stop wasting our time with their ceaseless entreaties."

Well first of all if that was really all there was to it then there's no reason they would have followed it for so long.

Second of all, if the Qunari really do not negotiate then there is no reason any entreaties need to waste their time.  Send a few envoys off to forced labor camps and they'll stop sending them eventually.  Even if they don't, who cares?  More free labor.

If I was annoyed by flies buzzing around me while I did yardwork, I'd put out a fly trap. I wouldn't call that negotiations with the flies. 

[ajm317]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

In such a scenario they still signed it.  That implies some level of agreement.  Someone saying "this is what I think we should do" and you saying "that is acceptable" is negotiation, even if it's a pretty brief one.

Somehow, in my head this is what happened: "Aarvarad, I have a task for you. Go and scribble something on the piece of paper on the appointed day, in order to make the Bas to stop wasting our time with their ceaseless entreaties."

Well first of all if that was really all there was to it then there's no reason they would have followed it for so long.

Second of all, if the Qunari really do not negotiate then there is no reason any entreaties need to waste their time.  Send a few envoys off to forced labor camps and they'll stop sending them eventually.  Even if they don't, who cares?  More free labor.

If I was annoyed by flies buzzing around me while I did yardwork, I'd put out a fly trap. I wouldn't call that negotiations with the flies. 

Neither would I.

But that's apparently not what the Qunari did.  In your analogy the fly trap would be the labor camp solution.  I assume the treaty was not negotiated by sending all the diplomats to labor camps.

[hoorayforicecream]

ajm317 wrote...

Neither would I.

But that's apparently not what the Qunari did.  In your analogy the fly trap would be the labor camp solution.  I assume the treaty was not negotiated by sending all the diplomats to labor camps.

I disagree. The fly trap is a distraction to keep them from buzzing on me. If they kept sending envoys to me, the buzzing continues. I would have to keep sending them to the labor camps, and that gets annoying. If they keep sending them, eventually they would likely send armed troops to protect them, which further escalates the annoyance factor, because now I actually have to devote resources to squashing them.

The purpose of the fly trap is to temporarily appease and get them set up for extermination later. A "treaty" that they believe in keeps the flies away with minimal further annoyance. Sending them repeatedly to labor camps would just be trying to swat every fly that comes to bother me. It would work in the short term, but it gets annoying in the long term. The more practical solution is to provide them something else to buzz over.

[ajm317]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I disagree. The fly trap is a distraction to keep them from buzzing on me. If they kept sending envoys to me, the buzzing continues. I would have to keep sending them to the labor camps, and that gets annoying. If they keep sending them, eventually they would likely send armed troops to protect them, which further escalates the annoyance factor, because now I actually have to devote resources to squashing them.

The entire purpose of the Qunari invasion is to either convert everyone in Thedas to the Qun or put them in work camps.

By sending people to you they are doing your work for you.  That's not annoying.  That's a free lunch.

The notion that the Qunari would sign a treaty because they were annoyed by the constant requests is silly really.  Just enslave the people making the requests.  There's no reason anyone important ever even has to see them.  The whole thing can be delegated to low level guards.

If you don't have the resources to deal with even the slaves, just kill them.  The Qunari have shown no difficulty with that either.  The Arishok told you in the game that if you were anyone else he would have killed you.

The purpose of the fly trap is to temporarily appease and get them set up for extermination later. A "treaty" that they believe in keeps the flies away with minimal further annoyance. Sending them repeatedly to labor camps would just be trying to swat every fly that comes to bother me. It would work in the short term, but it gets annoying in the long term. The more practical solution is to provide them something else to buzz over.

The purpose of the treaty from a Qunari viewpoint isn't relevant to the discussion really.  As mentioned before, negotiation does not preclude dishonesty.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[Zkyire]

The Angry One wrote...

The first holy passage of the Tome of Koslun:

See Qunari.
See Qunari run.
Run, Qunari, run!

The second holy passage in the Tome of Cousland Koslun:

A is for Arvaraad
B is for Bas
C is for Can't find the Tome of Koslun

I love you, man.

[hoorayforicecream]

ajm317 wrote...

The entire purpose of the Qunari invasion is to either convert everyone in Thedas to the Qun or put them in work camps.

By sending people to you they are doing your work for you.  That's not annoying.  That's a free lunch.

The notion that the Qunari would sign a treaty because they were annoyed by the constant requests is silly really.  Just enslave the people making the requests.  There's no reason anyone important ever even has to see them.  The whole thing can be delegated to low level guards.

If you don't have the resources to deal with even the slaves, just kill them.  The Qunari have shown no difficulty with that either.  The Arishok told you in the game that if you were anyone else he would have killed you.

Did you just completely ignore what I wrote? I think you did. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

The purpose of the treaty from a Qunari viewpoint isn't relevant to the discussion really.  As mentioned before, negotiation does not preclude dishonesty.

Now I'm pretty sure you did.