167 réponses à ce sujet

[ajm317]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

The entire purpose of the Qunari invasion is to either convert everyone in Thedas to the Qun or put them in work camps.

By sending people to you they are doing your work for you.  That's not annoying.  That's a free lunch.

The notion that the Qunari would sign a treaty because they were annoyed by the constant requests is silly really.  Just enslave the people making the requests.  There's no reason anyone important ever even has to see them.  The whole thing can be delegated to low level guards.

If you don't have the resources to deal with even the slaves, just kill them.  The Qunari have shown no difficulty with that either.  The Arishok told you in the game that if you were anyone else he would have killed you.

Did you just completely ignore what I wrote? I think you did. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

The purpose of the treaty from a Qunari viewpoint isn't relevant to the discussion really.  As mentioned before, negotiation does not preclude dishonesty.

Now I'm pretty sure you did. 

I fail to see how that isn't a satisfactory response.

Perhaps you should point out what part of your post you feel I inadequately addressed.

Or maybe you're not really intrested in discussion and would rather just be snarky.  I won't try to guess.

[hoorayforicecream]

ajm317 wrote...

I fail to see how that isn't a satisfactory response.

Perhaps you should point out what part of your post you feel I inadequately addressed.

Or maybe you're not really intrested in discussion and would rather just be snarky.  I won't try to guess.

You pretty much ignored the point of the post. I'm busy gardening for now. I'll go swat the flies later. Sending people to labor camps repeatedly does not stop the flies from buzzing. Continuously sending the people to the labor camps means they keep buzzing, and get angrier. I could delegate it to low-level workers to handle, but why would I do that when all I have to do to make the buzzing go away is delegate it to a single low-level worker to sign a piece of paper I have no intention of honoring anyway? It seems like a lot more ongoing effort which doesn't really net me any real gain compared to the alternative.

In any case, I don't like discussing things with people who won't listen. Then it's not a discussion anymore, it's a monoscussion and those tend to be boring. Nothing personal. 

[ajm317]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

I fail to see how that isn't a satisfactory response.

Perhaps you should point out what part of your post you feel I inadequately addressed.

Or maybe you're not really intrested in discussion and would rather just be snarky.  I won't try to guess.

You pretty much ignored the point of the post. I'm busy gardening for now. I'll go swat the flies later. Sending people to labor camps repeatedly does not stop the flies from buzzing. Continuously sending the people to the labor camps means they keep buzzing, and get angrier. I could delegate it to low-level workers to handle, but why would I do that when all I have to do to make the buzzing go away is delegate it to a single low-level worker to sign a piece of paper I have no intention of honoring anyway? It seems like a lot more ongoing effort which doesn't really net me any real gain compared to the alternative.

In any case, I don't like discussing things with people who won't listen. Then it's not a discussion anymore, it's a monoscussion and those tend to be boring. Nothing personal. 

I addressed all that in my post.  Now you're ignoring what I wrote.

Again, the Qunari WANT prisoners.  You are acting like these laborers are a nuisance.  They are a bonus.

Even if they are a nuisance, just kill them.  No biggie.

In order for the nuisance thing to be applicable, you have to annoy the people making the decisions.  You have to be annoying the Arishok.  From his point of view "kill all visitors" is no more annoying than "sign the paper".  Even the same number of words.  He doesn't have to think about it again.

But let's assume, for the moment, that he did go with option two and signed the paper.  That would still be a negotiation.  The people of Thedas asked for something and the Arishok eventually agreed to let them have it.  Why is it not negotiation in the case of flies?  Because the flies are not capable of communicating.  If flies are buzzing, you don't know why, you can only guess, and if you give them what you think they want, you can't be sure they won't keep buzzing, and they're not even aware you are the one that gave it to them.  Humans can communicate, so the analogy falls apart.

Modifié par ajm317, 21 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[Zinou]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

Tome of Koslun = Ark of the Covenant.

Without the white light and immediate death.

EDIT:  I should clarify.  Symbolically the Tome of Koslun is equal to the Ark of the Covenant not making any comparisons between the religion and the philosophy.

The Tome of Koslun = The Qur'an, Koslun = Muhammad, Ariqun = Imam

Fail

First, There is alot of Qur'ans not one, unlike the Tome of Koslun

Secondly, Muhammad didnt write the Qur'an

Thirdly, There is alot of Imams not one, unlike the Ariqun

You need to study some more

[hoorayforicecream]

ajm317 wrote...

I addressed all that in my post.  Now you're ignoring what I wrote.

Again, the Qunari WANT prisoners.  You are acting like these laborers are a nuisance.  They are a bonus.

Even if they are a nuisance, just kill them.  No biggie.

I like ice cream. I want ice cream. I do not necessarily want to be spoon fed ice cream every few minutes while I am gardening. Not usually, anyway. 

In order for the nuisance thing to be applicable, you have to annoy the people making the decisions.  You have to be annoying the Arishok.  From his point of view "kill all visitors" is no more annoying than "sign the paper".  Even the same number of words.  He doesn't have to think about it again.

Until they come with more soldiers, and now he has to think about it. Again. While the gardening is still left undone.

But let's assume, for the moment, that he did go with option two and signed the paper.  That would still be a negotiation.  The people of Thedas asked for something and the Arishok eventually agreed to let them have it.  Why is it not negotiation in the case of flies?  Because the flies are not capable of communicating.  If flies are buzzing, you don't know why, you can only guess, and if you give them what you think they want, you can't be sure they won't keep buzzing, and they're not even aware you are the one that gave it to them.  Humans can communicate, so the analogy falls apart.

Was all this just to get somebody to admit that negotiation took place? Ok. He negotiated with the annoyances. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zinou wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

Tome of Koslun = Ark of the Covenant.

Without the white light and immediate death.

EDIT:  I should clarify.  Symbolically the Tome of Koslun is equal to the Ark of the Covenant not making any comparisons between the religion and the philosophy.

The Tome of Koslun = The Qur'an, Koslun = Muhammad, Ariqun = Imam

Fail

First, There is alot of Qur'ans not one, unlike the Tome of Koslun

Secondly, Muhammad didnt write the Qur'an

Thirdly, There is alot of Imams not one, unlike the Ariqun

You need to study some more

Indeed.

[Maria Caliban]

We don't know if there's only a single Tome of Koslun.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...

We don't know if there's only a single Tome of Koslun.

It wouldn't make much sense if the Tome was not unique or very rare.

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

We don't know if there's only a single Tome of Koslun.

It wouldn't make much sense if the Tome was not unique or very rare.

Maybe the Qunari are really possessive about their tomes. I know kids with dozens of pokemon cards/beanie babies/Justin Bieber posters, and refuse to give any away. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

We don't know if there's only a single Tome of Koslun.

It wouldn't make much sense if the Tome was not unique or very rare.

Maybe the Qunari are really possessive about their tomes. I know kids with dozens of pokemon cards/beanie babies/Justin Bieber posters, and refuse to give any away. 

I doubt they'd barge into your home and stay there for 3 years (which they absolutely hate) and then try to kill you, to get one card back.

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I doubt they'd barge into your home and stay there for 3 years (which they absolutely hate) and then try to kill you, to get one card back.

You obviously don't know the same Justin Bieber fans I know. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I doubt they'd barge into your home and stay there for 3 years (which they absolutely hate) and then try to kill you, to get one card back.

You obviously don't know the same Justin Bieber fans I know. 

...Point taken.

[Boiny Bunny]

As I interpreted the Arishok's words, there was only 1 single tome of Koslun, and it had been held in Orlais for years, out of the reach of any who follow the Qun. The tome has probably been held in Orlais since the war with Par Vollen, but possibly even longer than that.

You can see why they would be excited to get the only book upon which their entire socity is based back. Most of them have probably forgotten certain passages, etc.

It's also worth mentioning that, even had Isabela burned the tome (with the box it was in) when she stole it, and the Arishok was aware of this, he still would have chased her ship, still would have been shipwrecked in Kirkwall, and the events of the game still would have happened.

He was after Isabela just as much as he was the tome.

[General User]

I don’t think it makes sense for the Qunari to have only one copy, or even very few copies, of the Tome of Koslun. I mean, the Qunari are a literate people, and that book is obviously extremely important to them. 
 
I can’t think of any rational reason they wouldn’t have made copies. Especially before letting the book leave Par Vollen.  Unless they took the line "the Tome of Koslun is SOOOOOOOO sacred, no one may copy it!"  But in that case, why was Sten so dismissive of the Urn?



Random Qunari Chap:  Hey Sten!  Did you hear?  The expedition from Kirkwall is back, and they have the Tome of Koslun!

Sten:  Congratulations, they found a paper weight.

Modifié par General User, 21 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[Zkyire]

General User wrote...


I don’t think it makes sense for the Qunari to have only one copy, or even very few copies, of the Tome of Koslun. I mean, the Qunari are a literate people, and that book is obviously extremely important to them. 
 
I can’t think of any rational reason they wouldn’t have made copies. Especially before letting the book leave Par Vollen.  Unless they took the line "the Tome of Koslun is SOOOOOOOO sacred, no one may copy it!"  But in that case, why was Sten so dismissive of the Urn?



Random Qunari Chap:  Hey Sten!  Did you hear?  The expedition from Kirkwall is back, and they have the Tome of Koslun!

Sten:  Congratulations, they found a paper weight.

Because it's not part of the Qun. And if it isn't part of the Qun; it's wrong.

[General User]

^^
Call me crazy, but I kinda like that idea! That for all their pretense to “order” and “knowledge” and “science” the Qunari are just as petty, and superstitious as anyone else in Thedas, maybe even more so in their own way.

It takes a little bit of the wind out of their sails and makes them more real, imo.

[Avilia]

I'm late to this but wanted to say:

I thought the point was the book was written by Koslun. As in, he put quill/pen/scratching tool to parchment and wrote it.

To add another analogy to the many already here it seemed like the difference between - a copy of a holy text (choose your own religion to insert here) and the original. It seems to me that the Arishok's keeness to get his hands on it is understandable.

I don't see how that makes the Qunari hypocrites - Sten may not have been impressed by the Ashes but neither were other party members. Its a relic that may or may not have religious importance to believers of that religion. No reason why it should have importance to him.

Modifié par Avilia, 22 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[KJandrew]

The best comparison i can think of is if Jesus wrote the bible himself. Or maybe a militant Buddha writing his teachings.
Also i don't see how this makes the Qunari hypocritical. I very much doubt the average andrastian even knows what the Tome is let alone gives a damn about it.

[General User]

Avilia wrote...

I'm late to this but wanted to say:

I thought the point was the book was written by Koslun. As in, he put quill/pen/scratching tool to parchment and wrote it.

To add another analogy to the many already here it seemed like the difference between - a copy of a holy text (choose your own religion to insert here) and the original. It seems to me that the Arishok's keeness to get his hands on it is understandable.

I don't see how that makes the Qunari hypocrites - Sten may not have been impressed by the Ashes but neither were other party members. Its a relic that may or may not have religious importance to believers of that religion. No reason why it should have importance to him.

No I wouldn’t expect Sten to have any great reverence for the specific relic of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, or Andraste. But that’s not really what I’m getting at.
 
I’ll take the liberty of assuming Sten’s attitude to be typical of the Qunari. The hypocrisy potentially comes in when Sten (potentially violently) dismisses  a relic of another faith as being a superstitious myth, despite rather compelling evidence that something very powerful is behind it, while at the same time holding that a relic of his own faith is worth killing and dying over despite the admission that it has no real power beyond the wisdom written in its pages.
 
Now all religions are different, some are positively obsessed with icons and relics, and (on the opposite end of the spectrum) others are profoundly, even militantly, iconoclastic. Some would care deeply about finding an "original text", to others such a text would be little more than a point of interest. 

I have always been left with the impression that the Qun belonged to the latter category, so when the Qunari in DAII were willing to suffer and risk so much for what is essentially an expensive version of soemthing they should already have, it made me think there was more going on.

Modifié par General User, 22 avril 2011 - 12:36 .

[General User]

KJandrew wrote...

The best comparison i can think of is if Jesus wrote the bible himself. Or maybe a militant Buddha writing his teachings.
Also i don't see how this makes the Qunari hypocritical. I very much doubt the average andrastian even knows what the Tome is let alone gives a damn about it.

Cont’d from above.
 
In other words, the hypocrisy isn’t over a specific point of doctrine, but over an entire worldview.  Namely the willingness to commit bad acts for foolish reasons. The Qunari would, no doubt, counter by saying: “But our reasons are not foolish!” But what else can one call the willingness to start a major war over a book you (should) already have a copy of?
 
Unless something else was really going on…

[Avilia]

The 'something else' could be the Tome combined with the demand of the Qun that the Arishok retrieve it.

Perhaps the Tome, as sacred and and important as it is, is actually not his prime driver. His prime driver could be that his honour is at stake. He was sent to fetch the Tome from the Orlesians. He failed in that task. Now he has to get the Tome or he is left in the same position as Sten without his sword. He can't go home without the Tome. The Tome is now secondary to his loss of honour.

Erm, does that make sense?

[General User]

^^
I think you’re dead on about the Arishok. And tell me if you disagree, but I really like that way of looking at the Qunari as characters. The idea that they have their own mental stumbling-blocks and blindspots makes them so much more interesting.

[EmperorSahlertz]

General User wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

The best comparison i can think of is if Jesus wrote the bible himself. Or maybe a militant Buddha writing his teachings.
Also i don't see how this makes the Qunari hypocritical. I very much doubt the average andrastian even knows what the Tome is let alone gives a damn about it.

Cont’d from above.
 
In other words, the hypocrisy isn’t over a specific point of doctrine, but over an entire worldview.  Namely the willingness to commit bad acts for foolish reasons. The Qunari would, no doubt, counter by saying: “But our reasons are not foolish!” But what else can one call the willingness to start a major war over a book you (should) already have a copy of?
 
Unless something else was really going on…

It is not what is inside the book which is important. It is what it represents.
It would be like some if nation stole the statue of liberty.

[Avilia]

@GeneralUser Very much so - I'd have loved to see them developed as the main antagonists. To my mind a villain with a point of view, flaws and blind spots, is so much more interesting.

Modifié par Avilia, 22 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[LT123]

Brought Fenris along for Catch a Thief and he has an interesting comment.

Isabela: *line about it being the Tome of Cousland or whatever*
Fenris: "Koslun?"
Isabela: "That's the one."
Fenris: "The founder of their religion, the most revered being in their history? That text would be sacred beyond measure."

Not sure if Koslun wrote it or if it's a book about him or her.