167 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

General User wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

The best comparison i can think of is if Jesus wrote the bible himself. Or maybe a militant Buddha writing his teachings.
Also i don't see how this makes the Qunari hypocritical. I very much doubt the average andrastian even knows what the Tome is let alone gives a damn about it.

Cont’d from above.
 
In other words, the hypocrisy isn’t over a specific point of doctrine, but over an entire worldview.  Namely the willingness to commit bad acts for foolish reasons. The Qunari would, no doubt, counter by saying: “But our reasons are not foolish!” But what else can one call the willingness to start a major war over a book you (should) already have a copy of?
 
Unless something else was really going on…

It is not what is inside the book which is important. It is what it represents.
It would be like some if nation stole the statue of liberty.

Even if Lady Liberty WERE stolen Freedom and Hope would surely not depart from America’s shores.  What more CAN a book represent, besides what is written in its pages? 

The Statue of Liberty is, in the end, copper and steel. The Tome of Koslun is, in the end, parchment and ink. Both are, as you say, representative. So long as the Qunari retain the Wisdom of Koslun, what use is his original Tome besides window dressing?


IOW, I just find it odd that a people who are otherwise extraordinarily pragmatic would go so, well... crazy over eminently replaceable objects.

[Emergent System]

ajm317 wrote...

I frankly don't see how insulting Hawke and practicality are in any way connected.  You can be a jerk and still be practical.  Practical jerks I think they're called.

Insulting people is impractical because it pisses them off and make them uncooperative... this should be obvious to any social creature.

[EmperorSahlertz]

General User wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

General User wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

The best comparison i can think of is if Jesus wrote the bible himself. Or maybe a militant Buddha writing his teachings.
Also i don't see how this makes the Qunari hypocritical. I very much doubt the average andrastian even knows what the Tome is let alone gives a damn about it.

Cont’d from above.
 
In other words, the hypocrisy isn’t over a specific point of doctrine, but over an entire worldview.  Namely the willingness to commit bad acts for foolish reasons. The Qunari would, no doubt, counter by saying: “But our reasons are not foolish!” But what else can one call the willingness to start a major war over a book you (should) already have a copy of?
 
Unless something else was really going on…

It is not what is inside the book which is important. It is what it represents.
It would be like some if nation stole the statue of liberty.

Even if Lady Liberty WERE stolen Freedom and Hope would surely not depart from America’s shores.  What more CAN a book represent, besides what is written in its pages? 

The Statue of Liberty is, in the end, copper and steel. The Tome of Koslun is, in the end, parchment and ink. Both are, as you say, representative. So long as the Qunari retain the Wisdom of Koslun, what use is his original Tome besides window dressing?


IOW, I just find it odd that a people who are otherwise extraordinarily pragmatic would go so, well... crazy over eminently replaceable objects.

You can bet your ass that if the Statue of Liberty were ever stolen, found, then the culprits refused to turn it back, lives would be lost.
The Tome represents the Qunari people. It represents everything they stand for, everything they are, their very soul.
It is a national relic, and the Qunari are extremely nationalistic. I can understand why they would want their soul back.

[General User]

Oh, don’t get me wrong, the Arishok’s claim on Isabela’s life is entirely valid. For that matter, so too does he have an entirely valid pretext for invading and occupying any city which gives her shelter.

Should the Arishok capture Isabela he would gain much: honor, justice, a valuable relic, and (as they see it) his soul. But what does he lose? He loses, for all Qunari forever, the right to claim that their worldview is based on anything other than their own personal and cultural biases. Biases that can no longer be compared to others by right, but merely by might.

The Statue of Liberty analogy only goes so far. Those same Americans willing to fight and die to get their statue back would be more than sympathetic towards any similarly disposed Frenchman, should the Eifel Tower go missing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

General User wrote...

Oh, don’t get me wrong, the Arishok’s claim on Isabela’s life is entirely valid. For that matter, so too does he have an entirely valid pretext for invading and occupying any city which gives her shelter.

Should the Arishok capture Isabela he would gain much: honor, justice, a valuable relic, and (as they see it) his soul. But what does he lose? He loses, for all Qunari forever, the right to claim that their worldview is based on anything other than their own personal and cultural biases. Biases that can no longer be compared to others by right, but merely by might.

The Statue of Liberty analogy only goes so far. Those same Americans willing to fight and die to get their statue back would be more than sympathetic towards any similarly disposed Frenchman, should the Eifel Tower go missing.

But the Qunari make no claim that they are not biased towards their own culture. They make no secret that they think themselves superior merely by culture. They make no secret that they are the mightiest in Thedas. Actually. The very fact that it is "just" the Arishok, and not the entire body of the QUnari who comes charing in, speaks of the practicallity of the Qunari.

[General User]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

General User wrote...

Oh, don’t get me wrong, the Arishok’s claim on Isabela’s life is entirely valid. For that matter, so too does he have an entirely valid pretext for invading and occupying any city which gives her shelter.

Should the Arishok capture Isabela he would gain much: honor, justice, a valuable relic, and (as they see it) his soul. But what does he lose? He loses, for all Qunari forever, the right to claim that their worldview is based on anything other than their own personal and cultural biases. Biases that can no longer be compared to others by right, but merely by might.

The Statue of Liberty analogy only goes so far. Those same Americans willing to fight and die to get their statue back would be more than sympathetic towards any similarly disposed Frenchman, should the Eifel Tower go missing.

But the Qunari make no claim that they are not biased towards their own culture. They make no secret that they think themselves superior merely by culture. They make no secret that they are the mightiest in Thedas. Actually. The very fact that it is "just" the Arishok, and not the entire body of the QUnari who comes charing in, speaks of the practicallity of the Qunari.

Nor should they. It is right, healthy, and natural for all cultures and nations to be biased towards themselves. 
 
What makes the Qunari different is the basis of their claim, it is not based on military might, but on the moral superiority of the Qun, on the idea that order and logic are the proper foundations of a society. The Qunari  military might is a support of their rule, not its source. 
 
But under the right circumstances, the mask slips, and the truth is laid bare: the actor remains the same. Superstition, pettiness, cruelty, the Qunari have risen above none of these. “The Qun is a lie.”-Armass DAO:A

[Zkyire]

General User wrote...

^^
Call me crazy, but I kinda like that idea! That for all their pretense to “order” and “knowledge” and “science” the Qunari are just as petty, and superstitious as anyone else in Thedas, maybe even more so in their own way.

It takes a little bit of the wind out of their sails and makes them more real, imo.

Quite likely. Remember how Arvaarad reacts when you tell him you're a mage? He freaks out thinking he's been corrupted.

The Qunari don't just fear mages for their actual magical power, they're incredibly superstitous regards to everything magical.

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maybe I'm just weird, but the feeling I got was more like how the militant muslims reacted when that Florida pastor burned a Koran. It isn't necessarily a religious thing with the Qunari, but they are every bit as dedicated to the Qun as any religious extremist. They just don't happen to believe that it's because of a higher being or power that the Qun exists (which I believe is the requirement for something to be religious).

Or how right-wing Christians protest when people talk about taking the Ten Commandments out of court houses.


Let's not be discriminant when it comes to religions and their extremists.

[Rifneno]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maybe I'm just weird, but the feeling I got was more like how the militant muslims reacted when that Florida pastor burned a Koran. It isn't necessarily a religious thing with the Qunari, but they are every bit as dedicated to the Qun as any religious extremist. They just don't happen to believe that it's because of a higher being or power that the Qun exists (which I believe is the requirement for something to be religious).

Or how right-wing Christians protest when people talk about taking the Ten Commandments out of court houses.


Let's not be discriminant when it comes to religions and their extremists.

Oh this is not going to end well...  

[Plaintiff]

It's actually the unpublished manuscript of the 8th Harry Potter book. They just SAY it's the Tome of Koslun because then nobody will want to read it.

[Fast Jimmy]

It could also be a very valid point that there are no copies of the Tome for very good reasons.

Perhaps the Tome includes instruction about the Qun... which, in turn, includes secrets that the Qunari would not want getting out, even among their own followers? The Qunari would be so subservient that they would not read the Tome if they are delivering it back home, only the head of their spiritual order would.

Is it possibly not a coincidence that the Tome went missing at the end of the last Qunari invasion and they haven't declared war in the hundreds of years since then? What if the Tome holds power or information for the Qunari that will give them the military might to attempt to conquer Thedas all over again?

[Fast Jimmy]

Rifneno wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Maybe I'm just weird, but the feeling I got was more like how the militant muslims reacted when that Florida pastor burned a Koran. It isn't necessarily a religious thing with the Qunari, but they are every bit as dedicated to the Qun as any religious extremist. They just don't happen to believe that it's because of a higher being or power that the Qun exists (which I believe is the requirement for something to be religious).

Or how right-wing Christians protest when people talk about taking the Ten Commandments out of court houses.


Let's not be discriminant when it comes to religions and their extremists.

Oh this is not going to end well...  

I did not mean to stir up a hornet's nest, but I find the comparissons between Qunari and Islamic cultures to be fairly inaccurate.

If anything, I think there are very strong influences of Christian history. A history of invading foreign countries in the name of their religion, using advanved technologies such as cannons and gunpowder to leverage their force, supreme disregard for other religions and cultures... these are all very strongly reminiscent of European Christianity. Although the obvious parallels between Catholicism and the Chantry are strong, I think the Qunari methodologies are more similar to past efforts and attitudes of Christianity.

[Paraxial]

I seriously thought that it was a Tome about my Cousland, I was disappointed to find out that it wasn't.

[Rifneno]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I did not mean to stir up a hornet's nest, but I find the comparissons between Qunari and Islamic cultures to be fairly inaccurate.

If anything, I think there are very strong influences of Christian history. A history of invading foreign countries in the name of their religion, using advanved technologies such as cannons and gunpowder to leverage their force, supreme disregard for other religions and cultures... these are all very strongly reminiscent of European Christianity. Although the obvious parallels between Catholicism and the Chantry are strong, I think the Qunari methodologies are more similar to past efforts and attitudes of Christianity.

Agreed.  The whole game is a pretty big reference to the dark ages.  Exalted marches = crusades, templars = ... templars.  Whole thing pretty much played out, minus the mages.  Anyone remember how it ended?  Yep, killed off the templars.  Problem is people that will argue about religion on a gaming forum are rarely intelligent enough to realize that the Roman-Catholic Church 1,000 years ago is an entirely different thing than it is today and they think claiming any wrongdoing on the part of people that have been dead for half the religion's existance is somehow an attack on their modern day and much more peaceful version.

[Weltenschlange]

Guys, please stop this off-topic discussion.

The Qunari are not a metaphor for any specific real-life ideology.

Making personal comparisons will not help us to find answers to our questions regarding the lore.

[General User]

Weltenschlange wrote...

Guys, please stop this off-topic discussion.

The Qunari are not a metaphor for any specific real-life ideology.

Making personal comparisons will not help us to find answers to our questions regarding the lore.

Word, the Qunari are based (in as much as they are based on any one thing) on the theoretical “ideal” society that the ancient Greek philosopher Plato outlined in “The Republic.”

Modifié par General User, 23 avril 2011 - 12:00 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Seriously?

Why don't we go around destroying all those ancient documents that we all have translated copies of on hundreds if not thousands of secure computers? Along with photos taken even.

A simple answer: Because they represent something, a thing of our past that we should not forget even if we have copies and people would get very very angry if an enemy nation would get their hands on such items.

What do you think would have occurred if the Russians had stolen the Declaration of Independence during the Cold War and then burnt it on state TV for the whole world to see...

Well, I for one figure none of us would be here to talk about it...nor would there be any bloody life on this planet anymore.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 avril 2011 - 12:50 .

[General User]

The question is not whether the Tome of Koslun is valuable, but rather: how valuable and why? Some cultures are willing to fight over symbolic objects, others are not. The Qunari clearly fall into the former category, but again the question is: why?

Why should the Qunari, a culture that values order be willing to risk the chaos of a major war, and the loss of a national leader over (what should be) a purely symbolic object?

As I've said, the idea isn't to argue that the Qunari aren’t justified in taking whatever means they feel are appropriate to retrieve their property, they clearly are. Merely that, in so doing, they prove themselves to be morally no better or worse than any other major faction in Thedas.

Modifié par General User, 23 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...

The question is not whether the Tome of Koslun is valuable, but rather: how valuable and why? Some cultures are willing to fight over symbolic objects, others are not. The Qunari clearly fall into the former category, but again the question is: why?

Why should the Qunari, a culture that values order be willing to risk the chaos of a major war, and the loss of a national leader over (what should be) a purely symbolic object?

As I've said, the idea isn't to argue that the Qunari aren’t justified in taking whatever means they feel are appropriate to retrieve their property, they clearly are. Merely that, in so doing, they prove themselves to be morally no better or worse than any other major faction in Thedas.

I think you'll find the Qunari do not consider war to be 'chaotic'. If they did, they wouldn't have a military arm in the first place. The Qunari want war. They're planning it, even. Neither Sten nor the Arishok make any secret of the fact that the ultimate goal of the Qunari is to force the rest of the world to submit to the Qun, violently if necessary. Indeed, it seems that violence is Plan A. Sten stresses Qunari invasion not as a possibility, but as an inevitability. Heck, the Tome of Koslun probably demands it.

The Arishok is basically a military general. War is his role within the Qun, his primary directive, so to speak. He needs no reason to raze Kirkwall beyond the mere fact of its existence. The only thing stopping him was that he had received no instructions to do so.

You could argue that the Qunari have proven themselves to be immoral, but only to other non-Qunari. Their concept of morality is extremely different from our own. To them, morality means living by the Qun, accepting your determined role and doing as you're told. The lives of 'bas' are worth nothing, as far as the Qunari are concerned.

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...
I think you'll find the Qunari do not consider war to be 'chaotic'. If they did, they wouldn't have a military arm in the first place. The Qunari want war. They're planning it, even. Neither Sten nor the Arishok make any secret of the fact that the ultimate goal of the Qunari is to force the rest of the world to submit to the Qun, violently if necessary. Indeed, it seems that violence is Plan A. Sten stresses Qunari invasion not as a possibility, but as an inevitability. Heck, the Tome of Koslun probably demands it..

That’s a good point. Though there seem to be some circumstances under which the Qunari do prefer peace to war, namely instances under which they are likely to lose.

I like to compare the Qunari idea of their own Manifest Destiny to the Andrastian idea of “the Chant must be sung from all four corners of the world!” I think they both deserve to be said in the same breath.

Plaintiff wrote...
The Arishok is basically a military general. War is his role within the Qun, his primary directive, so to speak. He needs no reason to raze Kirkwall beyond the mere fact of its existence. The only thing stopping him was that he had received no instructions to do so..

I’d call the Arishok significantly more than a general, he’s part of a ruling triumvirate, he has no superior to whom he owes even nominal allegiance, the only potential checks on his authority are the Arigena and the Ariqun. And given how the Qunari divide their society into “body”,  “mind”, and “soul” it’s highly questionable just how far their willingness, let alone their ability, to check the Arishok goes.

Plaintiff wrote...
You could argue that the Qunari have proven themselves to be immoral, but only to other non-Qunari. Their concept of morality is extremely different from our own. To them, morality means living by the Qun, accepting your determined role and doing as you're told. The lives of 'bas' are worth nothing, as far as the Qunari are concerned.

I didn’t mean to give the impression that the Qunari are immoral exactly, at least not inherently so. Rather that they lack any sort of moral superiority. And to my way of thinking, that is even more significant!
 
Let me put it this way: 
Alistair can claim that his “right” to rule Ferelden comes from the fact that he is Maric’s son. The Divine can claim that her “right” to rule the Chantry comes from the fact that the Maker’s Bride left her the “keys to the Kingdom” so to speak. But what can the Qunari claim is the source of their “right” to rule anyone, kossith, human or elf? They have to rely on the moral and logical superiority of the Qun. 
 
So when the Qunari do something illogical and immoral, like start a potentially disastrous war over “what is essentially an expensive version of something they (should) already have.” It calls into doubt just how logical and moral the Qun and the Qunari really are. For the Crown of Ferelden and the Divine of the Chantry, a lack of logic is not really a problem, they are not logic based systems, but for the Qunari it is a crushing blow to their very foundation.

Modifié par General User, 23 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I think the fact that the Qunari have not been involved in open battle or combat since the Exalted March when they lost this Tome until now, when it has resurfaced, may indicate that the Tome either represents the divine mandate of the Qunari to conquer all peoples under the banner of the Qun, or, as I stated earlier, actually is information or power that ALLOWS the Qunari to conquer all opposition.

Who knows? Maybe the Qunari didn't have the Tome stolen from them because they lost the Exalted March... maybe they lost the Exalted March BECAUSE the Tome was stolen from them.

[Kaiser Shepard]

I wonder how long it will take for the qunari to now utterly and completely break the Llomerryn Accord, given how it seems that they only went so far as to enter a truce (and maintain it for one and a half centuries) to make sure their precious relic wasn't destroyed. As of 9:34 Dragon, we either have one of the following situations:

1.) Tome of Koslun returned to the qunari, no reason for them to hold back anymore.
2.) Isabela possibly on the run with the relic, no reason for the qunari to hold back now that they're so close to it (if she in fact did escape).

The Arishok's "One day, we shall return..." also seems to foreshadow an impending war with the qunari, possibly during the upcoming war with the mages. The thing I personally am looking forward to most is 'meeting' the new Arishok, assuming the current one died, for he will most likely be a Sten we all know and love...

[General User]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I think the fact that the Qunari have not been involved in open battle or combat since the Exalted March when they lost this Tome until now, when it has resurfaced, may indicate that the Tome either represents the divine mandate of the Qunari to conquer all peoples under the banner of the Qun, or, as I stated earlier, actually is information or power that ALLOWS the Qunari to conquer all opposition.

Who knows? Maybe the Qunari didn't have the Tome stolen from them because they lost the Exalted March... maybe they lost the Exalted March BECAUSE the Tome was stolen from them.

I think that’s a neat idea. I wonder if the Orlesians actually read the Tome during all those years they had it locked away.  Someone has to actually write the Index Librorum Prohibitorum, right? 
 
I’m probably just nit-picking but… what the hey. As I see it, depending on how the Orlesian actually came into possession of the Tome it may be a legitimate prize of war, i.e. not “stolen” at all, but a rightful possession of the Orlesian Empire which the Empress Celene (?), in her graciousness, has deigned to return to its former owners. Ahh, the Middle Ages.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
I wonder how long it will take for the qunari to now utterly and completely break the Llomerryn Accord, given how it seems that they only went so far as to enter a truce (and maintain it for one and a half centuries) to make sure their precious relic wasn't destroyed. As of 9:34 Dragon, we either have one of the following situations:

1.) Tome of Koslun returned to the qunari, no reason for them to hold back anymore.
2.) Isabela possibly on the run with the relic, no reason for the qunari to hold back now that they're so close to it (if she in fact did escape).

The Arishok's "One day, we shall return..." also seems to foreshadow an impending war with the qunari, possibly during the upcoming war with the mages. The thing I personally am looking forward to most is 'meeting' the new Arishok, assuming the current one died, for he will most likely be a Sten we all know and love...

Do they do that? I mean, do the Qunari have a selection process to choose new leaders from the ranks of the Qunari? Or do the tamassarans train leaders from birth the same way they train anyone for their role in the Qun?

[Kaiser Shepard]

General User wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
I wonder how long it will take for the qunari to now utterly and completely break the Llomerryn Accord, given how it seems that they only went so far as to enter a truce (and maintain it for one and a half centuries) to make sure their precious relic wasn't destroyed. As of 9:34 Dragon, we either have one of the following situations:

1.) Tome of Koslun returned to the qunari, no reason for them to hold back anymore.
2.) Isabela possibly on the run with the relic, no reason for the qunari to hold back now that they're so close to it (if she in fact did escape).

The Arishok's "One day, we shall return..." also seems to foreshadow an impending war with the qunari, possibly during the upcoming war with the mages. The thing I personally am looking forward to most is 'meeting' the new Arishok, assuming the current one died, for he will most likely be a Sten we all know and love...

Do they do that? I mean, do the Qunari have a selection process to choose new leaders from the ranks of the Qunari? Or do the tamassarans train leaders from birth the same way they train anyone for their role in the Qun?

Honestly? I don't know. From a narrative perspective, though, instead of an in-universe one, it would make sense for 'our' Sten to take the position of military leader of the qunari. The in-universe explanation for this would probably be that he proved himself during the Blight, with or without the Warden (if unrecruited).

[Rifneno]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Honestly? I don't know. From a narrative perspective, though, instead of an in-universe one, it would make sense for 'our' Sten to take the position of military leader of the qunari. The in-universe explanation for this would probably be that he proved himself during the Blight, with or without the Warden (if unrecruited).

Not to say they won't go the route of "Sten lives anyway" but it wouldn't make much sense.  Sten accepts his sentence and he's fine with dying in that cage.  And unless someone else comes along and convinced the Revered Mother to set him loose, which seems unlikely, he's unarmored, unarmed, and on the verge of starvation.  He would have no chance against the darkspawn horde when it consumed Lothering.  Judging by his code of ethics, were he to fight the darkspawn and not be following the Warden on his merry adventures, he'd probably refuse to leave Lothering and die fighting the horde.  Honorable death beats life on the run with no hope of being able to return to the only culture you don't dispise.

If they make DAO Sten the new Arishok, I hope they do it in a Wrex type scenario where there's someone else in that position if the Warden's actions didn't help him get there.