167 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qunaris have no power vacuums. If there are no Arishok, that is simply just how it is then. No Qunari general would try to step up and take power. They would just continue with their last given order.

While likely, you cannot say that for certain.  Regardless a power vaccum doesn't necessarily mean that people will begin fighting for control even though that's the likely outcome in most cases.  Take the US for example.  If our president dies, we try to get a new one in as fast as possible.  We have a long list of whom the seat of power goes to if even the top 10 candidates are dead due to an enemy attack or some such.  That's not because we're afraid some random senator or admiral will try to usurp power, but because we need someone in that seat to make decisions.  Especially at a time of war.  If the Arishok is really the sole military mastermind and commander of the qunari, they need a new one or they are significantly more vulnerable from a military standpoint.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qunaris have no power vacuums. If there are no Arishok, that is simply just how it is then. No Qunari general would try to step up and take power. They would just continue with their last given order.

Mary Kirby confirmed that promotions within each area occur though.

[Fast Jimmy]

I imagine there are other potentials who could be promoted to Arishok, much in the same way there could be many Princes, but only one King. If the King shall die, there could be others selected since birth to fill that role should the (very likely) event of the leader dying. If the King did not die before the Prince, they would remain a Prince their entire lives.

To say that the Qunari would just "follow orders" until a new Arishok is of age, which could take over a decade, demeans the role of the Arishok. He does not just utter one day "conquer Thedas" and then the army figures out how to do so. He is a strategist, he picks targets, determines tactics, issues commands.

To say the Qunari could do without for a number of years until someone is born who is worthy to be the Arishok, then wait for that individual to grow up implies that the Arishok is not instrumental to the Qun, which does not appear to be the case.

In every important position, there is always an Heir Apparent. There is likely a pool of potentials who could be Arishok every generation and all are trained. Those who are not appointed likely serve in some other function until the Arishok passes, then the best candidate is chosen from the remaining. It makes no sense to pick a random baby born after the Arishok's death and begin training it so late in the game.

[General User]

Crow_22 wrote...

Well.... What makes sense to me is that the Tome of Koslun was a special relic from a long lost past. Kinda like the U.S. Declaration of Independence, if someone stole that then there would be hell to pay and we'd go ape **** (pardon my language,) on whoever took it. The Qunari also have a very strict religion and culture.... They see it as a special item for their belief, the Qun, and take it very seriously (Among other things).

I think that comparing the Tome to RW objects like the original Declaration of Independence or the Crown Jewels is a good one for making the reverence the Qunari hold for Koslun and his Tome relatable, but it falls short in one key area, namely how the Qunari lost the Tome.
 
Being that Orlais captured the Tome during the Exalted Marches, I am hard pressed to think of a set of circumstances (especially to a Medieval mind) where the capture of the Tome can be seen as anything other than taking a legitimate prize of war.
 
To continue with the Declaration of Independence analogy; imagine if, during the height of WWII, the Americans brought the original Declaration to Continental Europe and the Germans subsequently captured the document. What could the Americans do then, what could the Qunari do? Declare “double-war”?
  
And that might just be the crux of it all. While the reverence the Qunari have for the Tome is obvious, the real root of their obsession is the desire to erase the humiliation of having lost it in the first place.

[Fast Jimmy]

Again, the real question is... why WOULD the Qunari bring this vital piece of their lore to the front lines of a war? It honestly would be like the Americans bringing the Declaration to Europe during World War 2... meaning there would be no logical reason.

Unless the Declaration was somehow part of the war effort. Again, I go back to the idea that the Tome is somehow related to the Qunari's military force and dominance.

Maybe if there is a full moon and they shed blood without the tome nearby, they turn into pigeons. And become easy targets for Shale.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Again, the real question is... why WOULD the Qunari bring this vital piece of their lore to the front lines of a war? It honestly would be like the Americans bringing the Declaration to Europe during World War 2... meaning there would be no logical reason.

Unless the Declaration was somehow part of the war effort. Again, I go back to the idea that the Tome is somehow related to the Qunari's military force and dominance.

Maybe if there is a full moon and they shed blood without the tome nearby, they turn into pigeons. And become easy targets for Shale.

Who says it has to be on the front lines? If you question Isabela during'To Catch A Thief', she explains that the Orlesians have had the tome for ages and she took it from them very recently, when they had been planning to finally return it to the Qunari.

Orlais, as we all know from Origins, is a country where any given musician could be a goddamn spy. They could easily have obtained the tome through less than legitimate means.

[Woodstock-TC]

The Angry One wrote...

You're surprised that the Qunari operate with double standards?
It's made very clear that nothing in Qunari culture extends to respect for other people's cultures and beliefs.
Qunari are the forum trolls of Thedas.

This.  ^^
I always want to kill them so badly when they start talking. Just as Batarians in ME.

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 26 avril 2011 - 02:18 .

[Crow_22]

General User wrote...

Crow_22 wrote...

Well.... What makes sense to me is that the Tome of Koslun was a special relic from a long lost past. Kinda like the U.S. Declaration of Independence, if someone stole that then there would be hell to pay and we'd go ape **** (pardon my language,) on whoever took it. The Qunari also have a very strict religion and culture.... They see it as a special item for their belief, the Qun, and take it very seriously (Among other things).

I think that comparing the Tome to RW objects like the original Declaration of Independence or the Crown Jewels is a good one for making the reverence the Qunari hold for Koslun and his Tome relatable, but it falls short in one key area, namely how the Qunari lost the Tome.
 
Being that Orlais captured the Tome during the Exalted Marches, I am hard pressed to think of a set of circumstances (especially to a Medieval mind) where the capture of the Tome can be seen as anything other than taking a legitimate prize of war.
 
To continue with the Declaration of Independence analogy; imagine if, during the height of WWII, the Americans brought the original Declaration to Continental Europe and the Germans subsequently captured the document. What could the Americans do then, what could the Qunari do? Declare “double-war”?
  
And that might just be the crux of it all. While the reverence the Qunari have for the Tome is obvious, the real root of their obsession is the desire to erase the humiliation of having lost it in the first place.

Yeah ik it's not the BEST analogy, but I was just making an example that everyone understands. IF the Decralation of Indpendance was stolen for the same reason simliar to DA2, we'd probably want retribution, knowing that it's one of the most treasured documents in the U.S.

-Shrugs- But I'm just making theories, if I'm wrong then oh well lol. I love debating.

[General User]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Again, the real question is... why WOULD the Qunari bring this vital piece of their lore to the front lines of a war? It honestly would be like the Americans bringing the Declaration to Europe during World War 2... meaning there would be no logical reason.

Unless the Declaration was somehow part of the war effort. Again, I go back to the idea that the Tome is somehow related to the Qunari's military force and dominance.

Maybe if there is a full moon and they shed blood without the tome nearby, they turn into pigeons. And become easy targets for Shale.

Medieval armies would often carry religious relics at their head to inspire the troops, famously the Knights Templar carried the True Cross during the Crusades. As a secular example, the Romans would occasionally carry the Fasces at the head of their armies when putting down slave revolts. 
 
While this did seem to work, the overall wisdom of this strategy is dubious at best.  The Crusaders lost the True Cross following the Battle of Hattin, and the Romans were humiliated when the Fasces was captured by Spartacus.
 
The Qunari most likely took a similar line of thought with the Tome of Koslun. And when they failed to protect their relic, their humiliation was no doubt just as great.

Modifié par General User, 26 avril 2011 - 12:36 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Who says it has to be on the front lines? If you question Isabela during'To Catch A Thief', she explains that the Orlesians have had the tome for ages and she took it from them very recently, when they had been planning to finally return it to the Qunari.

Orlais, as we all know from Origins, is a country where any given musician could be a goddamn spy. They could easily have obtained the tome through less than legitimate means.

The Orlesians acquired the Tome ages ago... after the Qunari were defeated in the Exalted Marches. So I was referring to the Qunari bringing the Tome to the front lines back then, not recently.

[Fast Jimmy]

General User wrote...

Medieval armies would often carry religious relics at their head to inspire the troops, famously the Knights Templar carried the True Cross during the Crusades. As a secular example, the Romans would occasionally carry the Fasces at the head of their armies when putting down slave revolts. 
 
While this did seem to work, the overall wisdom of this strategy is dubious at best.  The Crusaders lost the True Cross following the Battle of Hattin, and the Romans were humiliated when the Fasces was captured by Spartacus.
 
The Qunari most likely took a similar line of thought with the Tome of Koslun. And when they failed to protect their relic, their humiliation was no doubt just as great.

<sigh> Yes, you are correct. It is most likely just a rallying point to raise morale.

But it would so much cooler if the Tome itself had some crazy knowledge or power only the Qunari could unlock.

[Cyaxares]

I don`t think that the specific tome was important relic, or somehow unique by itself. I think it significance was to the Qunari unit itself, something like Sten's sword in Origins. Like warrior can't lose his sword, unit can't lose its copy of the tome.
So the correct comparison would be not be original Declaration of Independence, it is more like banner of military unit.

[Vlad_Dracul]

I have a question: What happened with Tome of Koslun, after you killed Arishok and other Qunari? Destroyed? Dissapeared? Still sent to Qunari? Because in Act 3, there isnt any information about it.

[General User]

The qunari take it with them I believe.

That always kinda bothered me to be honest. I mean, if the Arishok won the duel, he got Isabela. But if I win, what do I get?  Also Isabela?   I want the book too!  C'mon Ari!  You want to play, you gotta ante-up.

Not to keep the book mind you, I'd auction it off. I'd even be willing to entertain bids from the qunari.

Modifié par General User, 04 novembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[esper]

Does they also take the tome with them if you don't duel.
Oh and if you win the duel, you get Isabella. She is the price.

[jamesp81]

General User wrote...

I mean, why do the Qunari want it? Why is (what I assume to be) the original manuscript so important to them? Do they not have copies in Par Vollen?
 
I ask because, based largely on Sten’s attitude towards the Urn of Sacred Ashes in DAO, I got the distinct impression that the Qunari were a militantly secular, even atheistic, people, not believing in icons or relics.
 
Is my perception of the Qunari off? Are the Qunari simply hypocrites? Or was the Tome an excuse to remain in Kirkwall? Some combination thereof?
 
(for the thread title, apologies to Jerry Seinfeld)

I'm going to go with hypocrits.

I get the idea that the Tome of Kosluun is the closest thing they have to something like the Chant of Light.  To the degree that they can have divine relics, this is one of them.

Or hell, maybe the Arishok just liked the pictures and wasn't willing to leave without it.

[Lazy Jer]

I have it on good authority, i.e. the voices in my head, that the Tome of Koslun itself wasn't all that important but it had written, on the inside cover, the phone number of a woman the Ariqun had met at wherever it is that the Qunari hang out. It came into the hands of the Orlesians after a slight baggage mix up at the Orlay International Airport. The Arishock was sent to Orlay to collect the tome because the Ariqun had jury duty.

Enter Isabella, who decided to steal the tome from the Orlesians because it was rumored to have held the secret to Anders' appeal, which of course is a complete mystery to the people of Rivan, and Orlay (not to mention the Dalelish, the Fereldans, most of the civilizied world and a good portion of the uncivilized world as well).

anyway, that's the way I heard it.

[dragonflight288]

Whose to say the qunari brought it to the front lines in the exalted marches?

The Qunari had conquered vast amounts of terriotry. In Rivain, there are still followers of the Qun...unless the chantry wiped them all out.

What if an Ariqun or someone else had it in a monastery and the Orlesian Chevaliers or templars sacked the location of it during the war? It's entirely possible and far more likely.