Alistairlover94 wrote...
Persephone wrote...
KLUME777 wrote...
I liked Mass Effect 2 yes. A lot. More than the first other than the story and characters.
Same here. Question: I love your banner! Would you mind if I borrowed it? I'd really like to use it on another forum.
You...Hate TaliBut she's like Merrill, except she's not a complete ******
Uzaik wrote...
Fallacy.
I've seen that same reasoning many times on the forum, I *think* even Gaider used it at some point (maybe not, at this point I've just demonized Laidlaw and Gaider).
I have various problems with Dragon Age 2, but for the sake of this argument I'll stick to the plot. My problem isn't the lack of an epic plot, or not having a mean dragon to kill. For the lack of a better word, the plot lacked cohesion. I find presumptuous that just because I did not enjoy at all the way the plot was delivered means I'm some sort of simpleton.
Reinveil wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Reinveil wrote...
Rockpopple wrote...
Reinveil wrote...
In what way is DAII more "tragic" than Origins, and what exactly is so "complex" about the relationships? I counted only a single controversial event of any significance, as well. Whereas in both Mass Effect games, you're faced with a fair number of situations that force you into making moral/immoral choices (instead of just railroading you into a cutscene that's going to happen no matter what) that affect the games' universe later on.
Your post is a ridiculous over-simplifcation, which is ironic considering your insulting insinuation that critics of DAII prefer "simplicity".
In my own opinion, DAII is a vastly simplified game compared to Mass Effect or Origins, from it's twitchy combat to it's lazy lack of scope and extremely limited interactivity compared to other Bioware titles. Arguing that it's too complex for most is an absolute joke and makes you come across as an apologist in denial.
I found DA II to be much more tragic than Origins. I mean, I found that the most "tragic" parts of Origins came in the Origins themselves. They were pretty sad and heartbreaking, but the purpose of that was to separate the hero from his world so he could only go forward, not backward.
In two, tragedy kept befalling Hawke to the point where when you're in Act III and you're with your LI in your mansion, you realise just how alone Hawke is. Unlike the Warden, who was always with his mates in camp, there's a feeling of isolation on Hawke that, even with his mansion populated by elves and dwarves and dogs, feels sadly alone. He doesn't have the pressure of stopping a monster that will destroy the world on his shoulder, no... but he does have a lot of pressure on him from various political machinations that could end the way of life for not only himself, but a lot of people in Kirkwall for whom he cares about.
In fact if anything, DA II is too tragic and depressing.
That's what I got out of it anyway. Once again: I loved Origins. Brought it twice for two different systems. So I'm not bashing Origins. I just also like DA II a lot.
And that's fine, I'm not out to change anyone's mind that enjoyed the game. I see you and Persephone (for example) post quite regularly on these boards, and while I seldom agree with what either of you say about DAII, you do so in a civil manner that I appreciate and respect. You're entitled to your opinions and I'm glad you were able to enjoy the game - it's always nice to feel as though you got what you paid for.
But when someone basically states that anyone that doesn't agree with his opinion, which is just as subjective as anyone else's, prefers "simplicity" (like it's an undisputed fact that DAII is some complex masterpiece of storytelling), I'm going to take offense. That is, frankly, a load of condescending crap that reaks of unwarranted self-importance. And from the perspective of someone that views the game as a massive step backwards in terms of interactivity (an opinion that is shared by many), it also comes across as delusional.
I am completely with you when it comes to comments like "People who like DAO & ME2 prefer simplicity. DAII is too complex for them to get." But similar things have been said about those who love DAII. And I take offense to that, as well as to being called delusional.I think it's possible for all of us to get along if we respect each other's opinions.
Is it wrong of me to feel a little hurt to see something I deeply care for attacked? (People feel similarly about DAO, no?) Maybe I'm taking it too personally. But it's one of the few games whose story actually got deeply under my skin. I hope that makes sense.
I wasn't necessarily inferring that anyone that disagrees with me is delusional, more that it's easy to make those kinds of blanket statements without anything but an opinion to back it up. My apologies if that wasn't clear or if I offended.
And to be frank, yes, I think you may be taking it a little too personally if dissent truly bothers you. It's a video game. All that matters is that you enjoyed it.
Persephone wrote...
Reinveil wrote...
zeejay21 wrote...
You must've missed the story.
From the start, Hawke was meant to be tragic character - he lost a sibling while escaping, lost another sibling again while in Kirkwall trying to amass wealth and finally lost his mother. The controversial events I refer to is when you the game at it's fullest and by paying attention to the whole structure - just help Merill out with her final quest and you'll see what I mean. I counted lots of events of controversial incidents starting from the Arishok to the final stage of the game. Play the game at it's fullest and you'll understand.
"Tragedies" that carry absolutely no weight because you're not given enough time or opportunities to interact with the characters that they befall. Who is going to be moved by the passing of a character ten minutes into the game who spoke a handful of lines? Applying your own logic, the human noble origin from the first game is the most tragic event ever committed to a disc! In what ways are Hawke's mother developed that should make the player care at all? You have a handful of conversations with her before she meets her fate, and half of them are spent harping on you about losing Bethany/Carver. And I'm supposed to feel bad for Merrill, who put an obsession with preserving a dangerous part of her peoples' history before the lives of everyone she supposedly cares about (including Hawke!) after she's told time and again that she's making a mistake? I was disgusted with her selfishness and irrational need to do what she was doing. But hey, maybe it would carry more weight if it wasn't bugged and played in the correct order, huh? And what's so controversial about what happens with the Qunari? You're faced with a choice that's pretty standard for any Bioware game, honestly.
Well, that is highly subjective territory. Having lost a sister and my mother, those experiences were pretty intense. My mother wasn't the same woman either after my sister died of a brain tumor within 3 days. It's all a matter of whether you connect to these people or not. Some do, some don't. Perfectly normal. Btw, Patch 1.02 fixes Merrill's Act III quest bug.
zeejay21 wrote...
Uzaik wrote...
Fallacy.
I've seen that same reasoning many times on the forum, I *think* even Gaider used it at some point (maybe not, at this point I've just demonized Laidlaw and Gaider).
I have various problems with Dragon Age 2, but for the sake of this argument I'll stick to the plot. My problem isn't the lack of an epic plot, or not having a mean dragon to kill. For the lack of a better word, the plot lacked cohesion. I find presumptuous that just because I did not enjoy at all the way the plot was delivered means I'm some sort of simpleton.
I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.
zeejay21 wrote...
Reinveil wrote...
In what way is DAII more "tragic" than Origins, and what exactly is so "complex" about the relationships? I counted only a single controversial event of any significance, as well. Whereas in both Mass Effect games, you're faced with a fair number of situations that force you into making moral/immoral choices (instead of just railroading you into a cutscene that's going to happen no matter what) that affect the games' universe later on.
Your post is a ridiculous over-simplifcation, which is ironic considering your insulting insinuation that critics of DAII prefer "simplicity".
In my own opinion, DAII is a vastly simplified game compared to Mass Effect or Origins, from it's twitchy combat to it's lazy lack of scope and extremely limited interactivity compared to other Bioware titles. Arguing that it's too complex for most is an absolute joke and makes you come across as an apologist in denial.
You must've missed the story.
From the start, Hawke was meant to be tragic character - he lost a sibling while escaping, lost another sibling again while in Kirkwall trying to amass wealth and finally lost his mother. The controversial events I refer to is when you play the game at it's fullest and by paying attention to the whole structure - just help Merill out with her final quest and you'll see what I mean. I counted lots of controversial incidents starting from the Arishok to the final stage of the game. Play the game at it's fullest and you'll understand.
ME2 was easier, lighter and sometimes predictable. You somehow knew what happens next by choosing the right actions. DA2 suprises you even if you feel you made the right decisions; a similarity to Bethesda's Fallout 3. This is where the complexity lies and to most people, it annoys them.
As for gameplay mechanic, I agree it was simplified - BioWare intended for it this way to reach out to newer, casual people, it can be a debatable issue but alas, BioWare made it's decisions. So far, only a few (out of hundreds) complains about DA2 gameplay mechanics, the primary focus of critics is the game overall structure; how engaging the game was to the player.
Modifié par Tommy6860, 21 avril 2011 - 07:50 .
Reinveil wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Reinveil wrote...
zeejay21 wrote...
You must've missed the story.
From the start, Hawke was meant to be tragic character - he lost a sibling while escaping, lost another sibling again while in Kirkwall trying to amass wealth and finally lost his mother. The controversial events I refer to is when you the game at it's fullest and by paying attention to the whole structure - just help Merill out with her final quest and you'll see what I mean. I counted lots of events of controversial incidents starting from the Arishok to the final stage of the game. Play the game at it's fullest and you'll understand.
"Tragedies" that carry absolutely no weight because you're not given enough time or opportunities to interact with the characters that they befall. Who is going to be moved by the passing of a character ten minutes into the game who spoke a handful of lines? Applying your own logic, the human noble origin from the first game is the most tragic event ever committed to a disc! In what ways are Hawke's mother developed that should make the player care at all? You have a handful of conversations with her before she meets her fate, and half of them are spent harping on you about losing Bethany/Carver. And I'm supposed to feel bad for Merrill, who put an obsession with preserving a dangerous part of her peoples' history before the lives of everyone she supposedly cares about (including Hawke!) after she's told time and again that she's making a mistake? I was disgusted with her selfishness and irrational need to do what she was doing. But hey, maybe it would carry more weight if it wasn't bugged and played in the correct order, huh? And what's so controversial about what happens with the Qunari? You're faced with a choice that's pretty standard for any Bioware game, honestly.
Well, that is highly subjective territory. Having lost a sister and my mother, those experiences were pretty intense. My mother wasn't the same woman either after my sister died of a brain tumor within 3 days. It's all a matter of whether you connect to these people or not. Some do, some don't. Perfectly normal. Btw, Patch 1.02 fixes Merrill's Act III quest bug.
I am sorry for your loss (truly), but I'm sure you'll also agree that not everyone, or even a majority of players, are going to be able to empathize in that way or draw those parallels. And my point is that you're not given enough time to connect with these characters for it to matter one way or the other. The idea is sound, it's the execution that falls short for me.
Uzaik wrote...
Where did I ever state I did not understand the plot? Lack of cohesion and my inability to immerse myself on the plot where the only two things I mentioned. I should add that its the first time in years that I just... don't give a damn about an RPG's storyline. It lacked a certain something, and the time leaps only made it worse.
Modifié par MorrigansLove, 21 avril 2011 - 07:57 .
Curlain wrote...
This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them,
Tommy6860 wrote...
Wow, I could never think that so many platitudes could be posited in one post, especially when the post is fairly short. Congratulations, you also achieved this while heaping on a layer of condescension as well. Maybe *if* you read your own words, "you'll understand".
zeejay21 wrote...
I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.
zeejay21 wrote...
Uzaik wrote...
Where did I ever state I did not understand the plot? Lack of cohesion and my inability to immerse myself on the plot where the only two things I mentioned. I should add that its the first time in years that I just... don't give a damn about an RPG's storyline. It lacked a certain something, and the time leaps only made it worse.
I just love to simplify. Your inability to immerse into the story and your find of the plot lacking troubles you, am I right?
Modifié par Uzaik, 21 avril 2011 - 08:02 .
Guest_Alistairlover94_*
MorrigansLove wrote...
Mass Effect 2 was phenomenal! Dragon Age 2... Hmm, I don't recall a Dragon Age 2. They ended the series after Witch Hunt.
Galad22 wrote...
zeejay21 wrote...
I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.
I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.
Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.
Turnip Root wrote...
Did you like Mass Effect 2?
Reason I'm asking is because Mass Effect 2 is widely seen as a console centric game and that's fine. Mass Effect has it's origins on consoles anyhow.
Dragon Age:Origins however was originally developed as a PC title and then ported over to consoles so I can understand why some PC fans of Dragon Age:Origins may have been slightly upset with the changes.
So I want to know if your dislike of Dragon Age II has more to do with the actual quality of the game, or your disappointment over the game not catering to the platform you enjoy the most.
Guest_Alistairlover94_*
Persephone wrote...
Curlain wrote...
This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them,
"Can it wait for a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations."
MorrigansLove wrote...
Mass Effect 2 was phenomenal! Dragon Age 2... Hmm, I don't recall a Dragon Age 2. They ended the series after Witch Hunt.
Persephone wrote...
Galad22 wrote...
zeejay21 wrote...
I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.
I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.
Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.
Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)
Modifié par drvaughn1999, 21 avril 2011 - 08:06 .
Curlain wrote...
Now before DA2 I had not played ME2, but since they have released that game free with it, I have enjoyed it allot more then DA2 despite the fact I'm not a great fan of shooters or the conversation wheel/paraphrase. This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them, building their relationship with Shepard, rather then just when the companion had a quest to give, or some plot significant moment as happened in DA2, I ended up caring about them.
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