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A question for those who did dot enjoy Dragon Age II that much.


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#126
Persephone

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Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Curlain wrote...

This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them, 


"Can it wait for a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations." :P




"We should move on."

"We shouldn't talk here."

"Don't start needling me now, we're busy!"

"If you have a plan, get to it."

Your point?


You get like 2-3 conversations with Garrus. (My fave ME2 character *Cries*) Every DAII character offered way more (If still too little) content than that. Or Jacob (Forced talks?). Or Tali. Or any of them. Now one may agree to disagree re: the content's (Thane still has the most BEAUTIFUL writing ever) quality. But quantity wise DAII wins over ME2 when it comes to companion interaction, banter and companion involvement in dialogue.

#127
Tommy6860

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Curlain wrote...

I loved (and still do love) DA:O, I couldn't wait to play that game, and I've sunk far more time then I ever care to think about into it. DA2 was a significant disappointment to me, it wasn't a bad game, but it was I felt rushed, and was inferior to me by far to it's predecessor, to much was cut away, it attempted to fix what wasn't broken and left what did need fixing. The game felt disjointed and often to me lacked any RP motivation for the PC, opportunities for a more interesting story (such as in Act III) were squandered, I felt railroaded throughout the game, without much real choice, limited feeling of connection to Hawke or Hawke's family or companions made it hard for me to care overmuch for anything (and the whole Mage/Templar situation often felt much more simplified then it had been presented in Origins).

Now before DA2 I had not played ME2, but since they have released that game free with it, I have enjoyed it allot more then DA2 despite the fact I'm not a great fan of shooters or the conversation wheel/paraphrase. This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them, building their relationship with Shepard, rather then just when the companion had a quest to give, or some plot significant moment as happened in DA2, I ended up caring about them. And finally I felt in a few areas I could actually make decisions that changed some things. It didn't fully compare for me to what Origins gave, but it was personally a breath of fresh air after DA2.

I'll finish by say, I know the above comes off critical of DA2, it was a fun game to play, and in some areas like party banter and the ability to involve companions more in npc conversations it improved things over Origins, and I found it an ok game, but one that was personally quite lacking for me.


The ME style scripting and conversation functionality in DA2 is so prevalent, that it makes it obvious that the same Bioware team, or at least most of the same team, did the writing for DA2 as did for ME, even some of the graphics as well. I can literally point to so many situations and convos in DA2 that calling them analogous would would be understating the similarities.

#128
Persephone

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drvaughn1999 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

zeejay21 wrote...

I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.


I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.

Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.



Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)


What made the story complex?


Hard to explain that without spoiling it entirely, sorry.

#129
Galad22

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Persephone wrote...

Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)


Well I really can't see DA2 story as being complex nor heartbreaking? But okay I can still accept that you think so.

And I was also bit annoyed to be forced to play as a male, most of my characters when I can choose are female. But that really doesn't tell anything about story.

I am a bit curious though, can you with honest face claim that DA2 had better or more complex story than PS:T had? Don't worry I do accept your answer whatever it is, just might find it hard to believe. ^_^

#130
Guest_Alistairlover94_*

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Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Curlain wrote...

This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them, 


"Can it wait for a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations." :P




"We should move on."

"We shouldn't talk here."

"Don't start needling me now, we're busy!"

"If you have a plan, get to it."

Your point?


You get like 2-3 conversations with Garrus. (My fave ME2 character *Cries*) Every DAII character offered way more (If still too little) content than that. Or Jacob (Forced talks?). Or Tali. Or any of them. Now one may agree to disagree re: the content's (Thane still has the most BEAUTIFUL writing ever) quality. But quantity wise DAII wins over ME2 when it comes to companion interaction, banter and companion involvement in dialogue.


Quality over quantity, my dear.

Also, Garrus & Thane>Fenris & Anders

#131
drvaughn1999

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Persephone wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

zeejay21 wrote...

I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.


I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.

Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.



Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)


What made the story complex?


Hard to explain that without spoiling it entirely, sorry.

I've played through the game twice and to me the decisions you have to make are easy, there are no one decision I would consider hard.  To me the story lacked depth. 

Modifié par drvaughn1999, 21 avril 2011 - 08:15 .


#132
Persephone

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Galad22 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)


Well I really can't see DA2 story as being complex nor heartbreaking? But okay I can still accept that you think so.

And I was also bit annoyed to be forced to play as a male, most of my characters when I can choose are female. But that really doesn't tell anything about story.

I am a bit curious though, can you with honest face claim that DA2 had better or more complex story than PS:T had? Don't worry I do accept your answer whatever it is, just might find it hard to believe. ^_^


PST is very hard to beat in the story department. I love them both but for very different reasons. But the sheer amount of writing and detail in PST is unequalled. Even by Bioware's best RPG games. (Be it DAO or BG)

#133
Persephone

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Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Curlain wrote...

This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them, 


"Can it wait for a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations." :P




"We should move on."

"We shouldn't talk here."

"Don't start needling me now, we're busy!"

"If you have a plan, get to it."

Your point?


You get like 2-3 conversations with Garrus. (My fave ME2 character *Cries*) Every DAII character offered way more (If still too little) content than that. Or Jacob (Forced talks?). Or Tali. Or any of them. Now one may agree to disagree re: the content's (Thane still has the most BEAUTIFUL writing ever) quality. But quantity wise DAII wins over ME2 when it comes to companion interaction, banter and companion involvement in dialogue.


Quality over quantity, my dear.

Also, Garrus & Thane>Fenris & Anders


What I meant was that the quality is debatable. I do love all four of these guys much more than Carth...er...Kaidan though. :wub:

#134
Galad22

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Persephone wrote...
PST is very hard to beat in the story department. I love them both but for very different reasons. But the sheer amount of writing and detail in PST is unequalled. Even by Bioware's best RPG games. (Be it DAO or BG)


Yep, yep! :P

#135
Persephone

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drvaughn1999 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

zeejay21 wrote...

I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.


I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.

Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.



Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)


What made the story complex?


Hard to explain that without spoiling it entirely, sorry.

I've played through the game twice and to me the decisions you have to make are easy, there are no one decision I woulded consider hard.  To me the story lacked depth. 


And that's your right. I however found several decisions to be highly difficult and intensely moving. But that's what makes the world interesting, a variety of opinions.:happy:

#136
zeejay21

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Galad22 wrote...

I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.

Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.


Not everything. The plot in DA2 (or the structure) is indeed debatable and I did mentioned it's the most criticized part.. Perhaps it's not as complex as Planescape: Torment but it's still complex anyhow. Otherwise, you won't see people asking questions and scratching their heads about it.

As for people, I can only say times a'changing. Perhaps during your days of glory, people loves complexity; today, it's the opposite.

And do remember that BioWare needs to sell games so they have to change too... well, from the way I see it.

#137
Guest_Alistairlover94_*

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Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Curlain wrote...

This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them, 


"Can it wait for a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations." :P




"We should move on."

"We shouldn't talk here."

"Don't start needling me now, we're busy!"

"If you have a plan, get to it."

Your point?


You get like 2-3 conversations with Garrus. (My fave ME2 character *Cries*) Every DAII character offered way more (If still too little) content than that. Or Jacob (Forced talks?). Or Tali. Or any of them. Now one may agree to disagree re: the content's (Thane still has the most BEAUTIFUL writing ever) quality. But quantity wise DAII wins over ME2 when it comes to companion interaction, banter and companion involvement in dialogue.


Quality over quantity, my dear.

Also, Garrus & Thane>Fenris & Anders


What I meant was that the quality is debatable. I do love all four of these guys much more than Carth...er...Kaidan though. :wub:


Can't really argue with thatPosted Image

#138
Curlain

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Persephone wrote...

Curlain wrote...

This was mainly due to the fact that there I felt Shepard actually had allot more conversation options then Hawke ever had (with the three ways to say yes thing), I could actually talk to Shepard's team and crew and get to know them, 


"Can it wait for a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations." :P




It didn't have what I could get out of an Origins companion for sure, however I was also able to ask them about either other team members, what they thought of the ship, ideas for upgrades, roles or thoughts on Cerberus, current research etc.  I guess it helped that I didn't always talk to the same people between each mission etc.  The important thing however is I could intiate these conversations when I wished, and there felt like allot more conversation opportunties (whether this is real, or it just felt that way) in ME2.  I had the feeling there I could have Shepard build a relationship with the team, something I found largely lacking in DA2 for me

#139
drvaughn1999

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Persephone wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

zeejay21 wrote...

I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.


I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.

Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.



Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)


What made the story complex?


Hard to explain that without spoiling it entirely, sorry.

I've played through the game twice and to me the decisions you have to make are easy, there are no one decision I woulded consider hard.  To me the story lacked depth. 


And that's your right. I however found several decisions to be highly difficult and intensely moving. But that's what makes the world interesting, a variety of opinions.:happy:


One decision was hard, play a mage or not.  Decide between Carver or Bethany?  Hard one.

#140
tfive24

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I like Me1 and sort of ME2. When they took out a lot of the rpg elements in ME2, I didn't like it as much as ME1. I have only 1 play through of me2 and 4 of me1. I was able to over look the flaws of me2 because it started out as an action-rpg game. I wasn't able to really complain about me2. Dragon Age Origin is my fav game this generation where KOTOR is my fav from last generation. ME and DA game mechanics should be kept separated. Both type of games played to different types of rpg genres.

By the way pc people, please stop blaming console players for these type of game changes. I'm a console player and i loved the fact dao was a pc port. Blame the devs for believing all console gamers are ADD type of people or they can't figure out to use the tools in the game.

From what I have been reading since launch of the DA2, people who didn't like DAO , they didn't like the combat or the slow pace action, but the people who do like DA2, they seem to talk more about the combat and graphics than the story, game mechanics, and talents or lack of them, and the game content.

#141
Rockpopple

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I dunno... I find that annoying in ME2. Like when I go up to a team member and initiate a conversation, only for them to give me a canned response telling me to stop bothering them.

In DA II, the companions initiated the conversation, which I found... I dunno... a little more lively. Like how my companions fates weren't completely tied with what Hawke had for lunch. I just helped them out, like a friend. I didn't mind that I wasn't really their leader, per-se, though they obviously revered Hawke's strength and determination.

It is interesting to see how many different views there are, and what people take out of games. A lot of it really is subjective. Hard to nail down what people want. I don't envy BioWare's job.

#142
MorrigansLove

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Persephone wrote...

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

zeejay21 wrote...

I'm sorry you took it that way, I didn't mean to say people such as yourself are simpletons. I meant to say that most people want to easily understand - especially when it comes to RPGs. Even you yourself have trouble understanding the DA2 plot.


I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.

Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.



Well, opinions differ in that regard. And that's good. To me DAII's story was highly complex and heartbreaking. PST 's story annoyed me by forcing me into playing a male character. (I hate doing that, out of about 20 finished Wardens, only two male. Out of six finished Hawkes, one male)


What made the story complex?


Hard to explain that without spoiling it entirely, sorry.


What's to spoil? The story sucks.














imo

#143
Galad22

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zeejay21 wrote...

Not everything. The plot in DA2 (or the structure) is indeed debatable and I did mentioned it's the most criticized part.. Perhaps it's not as complex as Planescape: Torment but it's still complex anyhow. Otherwise, you won't see people asking questions and scratching their heads about it.

As for people, I can only say times a'changing. Perhaps during your days of glory, people loves complexity; today, it's the opposite.

And do remember that BioWare needs to sell games so they have to change too... well, from the way I see it.


Perhaps complex when you talk about Bioware games, but in my opinion even Witcher had more complex plot than DA2 had.

DA2 is k-18 game and as far as I am aware adults generally enjoy more complex games than kids do, which I am sure you can see when comparing reception between DA:O and DA2.

DA:O was complex and people generally liked it very much, reception for DA2 has been much more lukewarm.

Can you even say that K-18 people were what bioware were aiming at with DA2? Because if they did they underestimated their audience horrible. I mean bandits blowing to bits when you kick them? What kind of adult would find that awesome?

Modifié par Galad22, 21 avril 2011 - 08:32 .


#144
zeejay21

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Galad22 wrote...


Perhaps complex when you talk about Bioware games, but in my opinion even Witcher had more complex plot than DA2 had.

DA2 is k-18 game and as far as I am aware adults generally enjoy more complex games than kids do, which I am sure you can see when comparing reception between DA:O and DA2.

DA:O was complex and people generally liked it very much, reception for DA2 has been much more lukewarm.

Can you even say that K-18 people were what bioware were aiming at with DA2? Because if they did they underestimated their audience horrible. I mean bandits blowing to bits when you kick them? What kind of adult would find that awesome?


You like changing subjects.

You believe a game intended for 18 and above today are not played by those below the intended age?

And yes, as people grow up, people takes on a mature, harder and complex decision hence it becomes natural to like complexity. Even so, there are times people wish things are simpler.

And as for DA:O, it wasn't really all that complex. It's based on a simple concept: defeat an invasion. People already understood it the minute the game takes them to Ostagar to become one of the legendary Grey Wardens.

Mike Laidlaw did say he wanted DA2 to be a mature game, much more mature than DA:O. It's no wonder the game is confusing, what's  with it's politics, extreme views & controversial outcomes.

As for notorious exploding bodies, consider it the silly side of the game - besides Varric is the one that told the story and he did say he's a compulsive liar.

#145
Reinveil

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zeejay21 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

I couldn't disagree with you more, really. You can't generalise people like this, I want to play complex games, I especially want my rpgs to be complex. This is something that DA2 was not, instead it simplified everything possible.

Planescape: Torment had an complex plot DA2 does not have it.


Not everything. The plot in DA2 (or the structure) is indeed debatable and I did mentioned it's the most criticized part.. Perhaps it's not as complex as Planescape: Torment but it's still complex anyhow. Otherwise, you won't see people asking questions and scratching their heads about it.


Yes, this has everything to do with "complexity" and nothing at all to do with the story being poorly executed.  Applying that same logic, Final Fantasy VIII's plot is the greatest ever written.

You've yet to explain to the unwashed masses why it's so "complex".

#146
drvaughn1999

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zeejay21 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...


Perhaps complex when you talk about Bioware games, but in my opinion even Witcher had more complex plot than DA2 had.

DA2 is k-18 game and as far as I am aware adults generally enjoy more complex games than kids do, which I am sure you can see when comparing reception between DA:O and DA2.

DA:O was complex and people generally liked it very much, reception for DA2 has been much more lukewarm.

Can you even say that K-18 people were what bioware were aiming at with DA2? Because if they did they underestimated their audience horrible. I mean bandits blowing to bits when you kick them? What kind of adult would find that awesome?


You like changing subjects.

You believe a game intended for 18 and above today are not played by those below the intended age?

And yes, as people grow up, people takes on a mature, harder and complex decision hence it becomes natural to like complexity. Even so, there are times people wish things are simpler.

And as for DA:O, it wasn't really all that complex. It's based on a simple concept: defeat an invasion. People already understood it the minute the game takes them to Ostagar to become one of the legendary Grey Wardens.

Mike Laidlaw did say he wanted DA2 to be a mature game, much more mature than DA:O. It's no wonder the game is confusing, what's  with it's politics, extreme views & controversial outcomes.

As for notorious exploding bodies, consider it the silly side of the game - besides Varric is the one that told the story and he did say he's a compulsive liar.


DA 2 is not confusing at all, politics (watch c-span, CNN, Fox) is easy, extreme views we all have them about something and controversial outcomes there was none in my playthoughs

#147
Medhia Nox

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I have to agree - there was nothing confusing about Dragon Age 2.

As for maturity - well, when children first learn the forbidden fruit of swearing, they do it to rebel and to feel like adults.

Dragon Age 2 feels a little like that.

#148
heathxxx

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First and foremost, I didn't enjoy DA2 as much as DA:O for many, many reasons. Indeed, I've not even bothered playing it a second time, compared to DA:O which I've played through multiple times. DA2 simply hasn't appealed to me enough to have any desire to play through it again.

In terms of this discussion though and having given it some thought, as far as my own thoughts go, there's one aspect that can probably account for at least one key difference between my enjoyment of ME2 compared to DA2.

That key difference is continuity. Now the continuity aspect for me, was on two levels.

First and perhaps foremost, between ME1 and ME2, there was continuity of story and characters. Even if original squad characters weren't part of your squad in ME2, then they were factored into the plot meaningfully enough if their role was quite small, or there was an opportunity to interact with them in more detail, or engage in a quest where they featured heavily.

In essence, I felt as if I was continuing the next stage of the lead character's journey (which I was controlling), accompanied by, or involving at some level, characters I'd come to know in the previous game.

Insofar as the other aspect of continuity, although ME2 evolved significantly as a game from ME1, the way the game played to me, it felt like a natural evolution. Even though there were certain elements of the gameplay that had changed, what essentially drove the game and my interest, was the story unfolding before me.

So, moving from DA:O to DA2, having pre-ordered the game based upon my enjoyment of the former, although I was expecting some evolution between the two games, I was hoping for some continuity of the story that had begun with DA:O. Clearly upon starting my, as yet (and likely only) play through of DA2, it soon became obvious that the story unfolding wasn't going to offer a continuation of anything meaningful from the previous game. Now although I could accept that to a certain degree, I think what elevated my dismay in the story for DA2 was the cameo appearances of characters from DA:O, in such a way that I felt they were'nt really needed, but just thrown in for the sake of it.

Insofar as story continuity between the two games, it's probably fair to say that the new story didn't appeal as much to me, as much as a meaningful story that featured the Grey Wardens or other factions and characters from DA:O may have done.

Finally, the evolution or changes in gameplay on so many different levels, removed any feeling of continuity that I was really playing a Dragon Age game at all. Indeed, Dragon Age 2 has some redeeming aspects to it, but even though it was marketed as "the sequel" to Dragon Age: Origins, I just didn't feel the same level of continuity that I enjoyed between ME1 and ME2.

Hopefully that might explain one person's thoughts on the subject at hand. I'm not interested in the bickering and the OP raised quite a good question, that will result in many different answers, depending on different people's perspectives for all four games.

#149
88mphSlayer

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i actually liked parts of Dragon Age 2 more than Mass Effect 2... like... exploration, interesting side quests, loot, hubs, banter, amoral grey area decisions, better hair graphics, actual rpg gameplay mechanics

Mass Effect 2 was overall better made and more satisfying tho, dunno what that says about the above parts that were better in DA2

#150
zeejay21

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Reinveil wrote...

Yes, this has everything to do with "complexity" and nothing at all to do with the story being poorly executed.  Applying that same logic, Final Fantasy VIII's plot is the greatest ever written.

You've yet to explain to the unwashed masses why it's so "complex".


Structure was poorly done, story was not. In fact, the story is more interesting than DA:O IMO but as one poster mentioned, it doesn't stick together as if each story is a standalone.

People didn't really pay any real attention to the game since the structure was weak, hard to understand and not engaging but those that do pay attention, they find that DA2 is filled with twists and outcomes that bewildered them.

If I asked you to simplified DA2 whole backstory, what would it be?

I'm voting for 'it's story sucks'. Simple fact, no?

Also, didn't FF8 was praised for it's plot and before that FF7?



drvaughn1999 wrote...

DA 2 is not confusing at all, politics (watch c-span, CNN, Fox) is easy, extreme views we all have them about something and controversial outcomes there was none in my playthoughs



Oh, then nothing will surprise you then.

Modifié par zeejay21, 21 avril 2011 - 09:14 .