254 réponses à ce sujet

[BeefoTheBold]

I liked Mass Effect 2, but I liked Mass Effect 1 a lot better.

A couple of reasons why I think you're not seeing the level of outrage on Mass Effect 2 that you see on DA2 despite the fact that in both cases, RPG elements were stripped down or removed entirely.

1. The departure was not nearly as dramatic.
Mass Effect 1 was close to being a shooter title with a good storyline anyway. The sequel going a little further in the same direction doesn't have the same feel as the complete changeup that DA2 was from DAO.

Granted, the game has it's fair share of changes, but it is SIMILAR ENOUGH that it wasn't a profound departure from what gamers expected to be purchasing. Going in, I knew to expect a fair amount of shooter title influence. 

2. It was a finished, polished game where your choices had actual impact.
This is more or less self-explanatory, but Mass Effect 2 was a VERY GOOD game. It may not have been as much of an RPG title as I would have liked. It may have gotten the balance between combat and story/character development a little too slanted towards the trigger jocks among us, but at the very least it was damned good. Things like recycled environments are not present. Actual multiple endings exist.

3. It has continuity of storyline and realism for the most part.
Compare and contrast the number of plotholes in ME2 vs. DA2. Do you see ANYTHING AT ALL as glaringly blatant as, say, playing a mage Hawke in DA2 being utterly ignored? (Just one example among many.) Further, the first game is treated with respect and the things you did in the first game have a real impact.

4. RPG gamers like me consoled ourselves that, even if the Mass Effect series was being taken towards the shooter game fan crowd a bit, we'd at least have the sequel to DAO to show Bioware still valued us.

When this turned out to not be the case, it felt like a slap in the face. Most folks are mature enough to understand that Bioware needs to make money. We get the reasons why ME2 was tweaked away from pure RPG to attract more shooter/COD fans. But we didn't expect DA2 to be taken completely away from us for the most part.

5. The Laidlaw interview, even if it was just to try and spur DA2 sales, came across as a complete slap in the face.
Just the entire tone of the interview was arrogant and dismissive of Bioware's core fanbase. It came across as us not being good enough, or that we just weren't smart enough to grasp his essential brilliance.

It was a PR nightmare and has caused a lot of angst.

6. People are depressed.
Flat out, there aren't a lot of companies left that cater to the tastes of the folks who revered and adored DAO. It feels like we're being dumped right and left as folks go after casual gamers. A lot of what you're seeing is a natural emotional response when a longterm relationship is ending.

7. Mass Effect 2 doesn't feel targeted to eight year old anime fans like DA2 does.
Super Saiyan Templar!  Emo mage! Exploding enemies when I tap them with my dagger! Darkspawn that look like clones of He-Man's arch-nemesis Skeletor!

[PaulSX]

in my deep heart, I like mass effect more than mass effect 2, though mass effect 2 is definitely a better game. I played mass effect only 3 times, but mass effect 2 keep bringing me back because its massive fun.

As for DAO and DA2, my feeling is just opposite. I love DAO to death. it's well balanced in story, characters, fun gameplay and huge replayability. DA2 is just a good game with some fun, nothing more to offer.

[erynnar]

suntzuxi wrote...

in my deep heart, I like mass effect more than mass effect 2, though mass effect 2 is definitely a better game. I played mass effect only 3 times, but mass effect 2 keep bringing me back because its massive fun.

As for DAO and DA2, my feeling is just opposite. I love DAO to death. it's well balanced in story, characters, fun gameplay and huge replayability. DA2 is just a good game with some fun, nothing more to offer.

^This. I too found DA2 to be a good to meh game. Doing one more play as a mage. I don't know that I will finish it to Act 3 or even finish my first either (it is stuck at Merrill's clan).

[Turnip Root]

suntzuxi wrote...

in my deep heart, I like mass effect more than mass effect 2, though mass effect 2 is definitely a better game. I played mass effect only 3 times, but mass effect 2 keep bringing me back because its massive fun.

As for DAO and DA2, my feeling is just opposite. I love DAO to death. it's well balanced in story, characters, fun gameplay and huge replayability. DA2 is just a good game with some fun, nothing more to offer.

So you think Mass Effect 2 is a better game than Mass Effect 1 even though you enjoy Mass Effect 1 more?

That's interesting.
I kind of feel that way about Metroid Prime and Metroid Other:M.  I know Metroid Prime is a better game but Other M's style of gameplay appeals to me more.

[2Hard2C]

Dragon Age 2 was not a complete game.

Can't really compare the two I'm afraid.

[Turnip Root]

2Hard2C wrote...

Dragon Age 2 was not a complete game.

Can't really compare the two I'm afraid.

If a company sells a product it markets as a game for 60 dollars, then it should be treated as such regardless of quality or polish.

[2Hard2C]

Turnip Root wrote...

2Hard2C wrote...

Dragon Age 2 was not a complete game.

Can't really compare the two I'm afraid.

If a company sells a product it markets as a game for 60 dollars, then it should be treated as such regardless of quality or polish.

It is like compairing apples to oranges for me; one will always be orange, the other will come in a variety of colors; one will be spherical, the other more oddly shaped; one will have a more definate taste, the other can be sweet or sour or something in-between. If you understand my meaning behind this.

If you do not, then thing of it like so: Both are fruit, but they are so wildly different that the comparison will end there.

(P.S You still have your anwser as to if I liked Mass Effect 2, albeit more round-about than what others have said.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

I prefer Mass Effect 2 over DA2 by quite a bit. I prefer Origins to both.

[BeefoTheBold]

Turnip Root wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

in my deep heart, I like mass effect more than mass effect 2, though mass effect 2 is definitely a better game. I played mass effect only 3 times, but mass effect 2 keep bringing me back because its massive fun.

As for DAO and DA2, my feeling is just opposite. I love DAO to death. it's well balanced in story, characters, fun gameplay and huge replayability. DA2 is just a good game with some fun, nothing more to offer.

So you think Mass Effect 2 is a better game than Mass Effect 1 even though you enjoy Mass Effect 1 more?

That's interesting.
I kind of feel that way about Metroid Prime and Metroid Other:M.  I know Metroid Prime is a better game but Other M's style of gameplay appeals to me more.

I actually feel the same way as suntzuxi does about Mass Effect 1 vs. Mass Effect 2. I recognize that ME2 is a more complete, polished and better game overall. I happen to like ME1 more because it's just a bit more of an RPG title.

Doesn't stop me from recognizing that ME2 is a better game on the quantifiable merits, but I like ME1 better because it's closer to my individual gaming tastes.

[Dracotamer]

I liked Mass Effect 2, but I preferred Mass Effect 1. Also Mass Effect is really a genre of it's own so hard to compare to DA2.

[KLUME777]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

I liked Mass Effect 2 yes. A lot. More than the first other than the story and characters.

Same here. Question: I love your banner! Would you mind if I borrowed it? I'd really like to use it on another forum.

You...Hate Tali But she's like Merrill, except she's not a complete ******

Blasphemy! Merril was my favourite character in DA2. And i see her more as the Lelianna of DA2, though not as good.

EDIT: Yes, i see the similarity that Tali and Merril are from a race that is discriminated as well as being loners, but still? She appeals to the people that liked Lelianna. At least thats what i think.

Modifié par KLUME777, 22 avril 2011 - 08:53 .

[Rinkusu]

ME2 is a great game (still prefer ME1 over it but tha't me). I didn't like all the changes made but they fitted with the gamestyle and in the overall aspect not much was lost.
With DA2 they just ruined it, the changes that were made don't fit in the gamestyle and what was gained is not enough to compensate.
I really can't understand why the decided to turn DA2 into a ME2 with melee and magic (with a shorter, unimportant story). In my opinion it was dumb.
Now where the heck is the tools so the mod community can try to fix this mess?????

[LyndseyCousland]

Turnip Root wrote...

Did you like Mass Effect 2?

Reason I'm asking is because Mass Effect 2 is widely seen as a console centric game and that's fine.  Mass Effect has it's origins on consoles anyhow.
Dragon Age:Origins however was originally developed as a PC title and then ported over to consoles so I can understand why some PC fans of Dragon Age:Origins may have been slightly upset with the changes.

So I want to know if your dislike of Dragon Age II has more to do with the actual quality of the game, or your disappointment over the game not catering to the platform you enjoy the most.

I've played them all on XBox.
So far my disappointment has been due to quality.

[Iwasdrunkbro]

i dont enjoy games that were devoloped on a pc, catered for and ported to consoles, then ported back to the pc and then sold to me as if im a 2nd class citizen.

[wildannie]

I loved ME and ME2.

ME2 improved on some of the problems of ME but did lose something along the way. I do play ME on 360 and prefer it there. On the whole I also slightly prefer ME to 2.

I started on the 360 with origins then moved to PC, where it is much better and have no intention of buying 2 for my console.
While I think that some of the changes made to DA2 are arguably improvements upon DAO what was lost along the way was, for me, too much. It seems that the improvements are largely cancelled out by the shortcomings, although I think that if there had been some relatively small changes (variety of areas, more freedom of dialogue, less bugs - especially import, tactical camera), I would not have been disappointed at all.
If they had added in some little surprises like leliana singing at the campfire (that scene had me laughing so much... not the desired effect I'm sure but I was happy) I'd have been quite ecstatic... and probably playing the game instead of rambling on here.

So Bioware set out to 'improve' ME and DA through streamlining. the ME team managed to achieve this much more successfully than DA. I think the platform is beside the point really

Modifié par wildannie, 22 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[Kilshrek]

I didn't like ME 2 as much as I liked ME 1. ME 2 did to ME 1 what DA 2 did to DAO, but not as sensationally as DA 2. BeefoTheBold sums it up rather nicely I think, I can't think of what I would want to add that hasn't been said before or done to death on the forums.

And let's not kid ourselves, ME didn't need button = awesome to be awesome. Shep headbutts Krogans and punches out giant mutated Batarians (SB is a Yahg yes, but he looked like a mutant Batarian to me).

[gotthammer]

I liked ME2, but I had more 'gripes' about it than I did w/ ME1. (particularly some of the choices in ME2. First thing that comes to mind is the final choice regarding the Collector base: IMHO, a 3rd, and perhaps a fourth or fifth, option should've been there. Like spare base, but give to Alliance)

Also, as some have said, the changes between ME1 and ME2 didn't feel as drastic as the changes between DA:O and DA2.
(I hated the 'heat clip' mechanic, tho', considering how they explained weapon operation in ME1. For ME3, they really should go w/ either an option to use ME1's or ME2's system, or implement a 'hybrid' system)

The most I could complain about ME1, I think, were some bugs (e.g., flying Mako that requires me to load a game)

I didn't feel that ME2 was overly lacking/unpolished/a great waste of potential/a wasted opportunity, which I definitely felt with DA2.
Granted, I did enjoy some parts of DA2, but, IMHO, this is the worst BioWare 'RPG' I've played.

So...(of the mentioned games, that being DA:O, DA2, ME1 and ME2)
DA:O > ME1 > ME2 >>>>> DA2

[Xarne]

The story in DA2 isnt complex. It's a set story with the facade of 'choices'
I've played as the most well-meaning hero and the most nefarious of villians and guess what?
There is 0 difference in both playthroughs, which is probably why they did away with the recap at the end of the game.
Squeezing everything into Kirkwall made it feel more like a soap opera than a full story, every act I kept waiting for the map to open up and the REAL game to begin.

Complex to me would be where you're presented with options, have real choices to make, and the choices take different paths that reflect in your game: DA:O had tons:
Werewolves vs Dalish
Andraste's Ashes
The Landsmeet
Dealing with Loghan/Anora/Alistair...and I could go on and on. In contrast, this is DA2 mainstory:
Quest giver: Go to "X" and kill "Y" and retrieve "Z"
Hawke: No.
Quest Giver: Right, so head out to X, deal with Y and I'll be here waiting for Z.
So DA2 treats you like a 7yr old: You'll play this game how we say, whether you like it or not.
Entirely on rails.
If they called this game "The Champion of Kirkwall", made it only for consoles then kept working on a real sequel for DA:O I think they would have made *everyone* who buys BioWare products happy
This Laidlaw dude, trying to justify this game by mocking classical RPG gameplay - the same type of gameplay that put BW on the map is ironic. Everything I read from this guy just screams "F U PC Players"

[element eater]

i liked me2 quite alot, da2 feels distinctly average to me though

[Amfortas]

Mass Effect 2 is a good game, not the kind of game I like and not what I was expecting, I was actually really disappointed when I finished it, but it's a good game, I have recommended it to several people.
DAII is the most boring game I've played since a friend lent me the Banjo Kazooie for XBox, both characterized by their lack mission variety by the way (I don't play many games so there's no need to tell me that X and Y were even worse)

Answering the other question, I'm a console gamer (if such a thing exists) and no, I don't care what platform has the game been desinged for. Origins was supposed to be a poor copy of the PC version and I still liked it. DAII is a bad game per se, it doesn't need to be a bad port from the PC. The console game/ PC game is an unnecessary debate, to me, there are good games and bad games, that's it.

[Rockpopple]

Mass Effect 2 blew my mind. It's ending was so epic it made me tear up. I hadn't felt that way since the Dark Knight.

[Reinveil]

KLUME777 wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

I liked Mass Effect 2 yes. A lot. More than the first other than the story and characters.

Same here. Question: I love your banner! Would you mind if I borrowed it? I'd really like to use it on another forum.

You...Hate Tali But she's like Merrill, except she's not a complete ******

Blasphemy! Merril was my favourite character in DA2. And i see her more as the Lelianna of DA2, though not as good.

EDIT: Yes, i see the similarity that Tali and Merril are from a race that is discriminated as well as being loners, but still? She appeals to the people that liked Lelianna. At least thats what i think.

Also, Tali and Merrill both put the welfare and history/culture of their people over almost everything else, and they're both naive/have limited life experiences.  But while Tali's heart is usually in the right place (she wouldn't throw the people she claims to care about into the fire to get what she wants), Merrill mostly came across as obsessive, selfish, and occasionally treacherous.  I don't really get why people are so taken with her, but then I don't get all the Anders love either.  But that's one of many things I disliked about DAII: the botched attempts at making characters multi-faceted that instead rendered them wholly unlikable.  By the end of the game, I found almost the entire cast repulsive (and weirdly, the one character I started off REALLY disliking - Aveline - ended up being my favorite).

Leliana has a strong, confident personality and is well-versed in the ways of the world.  She also manages to be spiritual without coming off as annoying or preachy.  Perhaps because her opinions on more worldy interests are usually quite practical and (pun not intended) down to earth.  I don't see how she's an analog for Merrill at all, honestly.

Modifié par Reinveil, 22 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[JaegerBane]

Turnip Root wrote...

Did you like Mass Effect 2?

Yes. I'd go so far as to say it's probably my single favourite game of all time. I don't make such a statement likely.

Reason I'm asking is because Mass Effect 2 is widely seen as a console centric game and that's fine.  Mass Effect has it's origins on consoles anyhow.

I'm not sure this is correct. The two versions of the game handle quite differently, with the PC version feeling like it was expressly designed for using a mouse and keyboard. I'd be more inclined to say that ME2 is platform-agnostic.

Dragon Age:Origins however was originally developed as a PC title and then ported over to consoles so I can understand why some PC fans of Dragon Age:Origins may have been slightly upset with the changes.

HArdly. I enjoyed DA:O because it played great and had a set of characters and a storyline that made it play like a mix of Lord of the Rings and Star Wars. I couldn't care less if it was originally developed for PC.

So I want to know if your dislike of Dragon Age II has more to do with the actual quality of the game, or your disappointment over the game not catering to the platform you enjoy the most.

Since I'm not really sure how DA2 would look if it did 'cater to PC', I'm fairly sure my dislike of certain aspects of DA2 it to do with the game itself. Act 3 would have been just as absurd regardless of what controller I had in my hand. The same can be said of the ridiculous carbon-copied environments and the dragging plot.

[Reinveil]

JaegerBane wrote...

Since I'm not really sure how DA2 would look if it did 'cater to PC', I'm fairly sure my dislike of certain aspects of DA2 it to do with the game itself. Act 3 would have been just as absurd regardless of what controller I had in my hand. The same can be said of the ridiculous carbon-copied environments and the dragging plot.

Well said, and more or less representative of my own feelings.  The game is so flawed in it's design that the target medium is irrelevant.

[JaegerBane]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Granted, the game has it's fair share of changes, but it is SIMILAR ENOUGH that it wasn't a profound departure from what gamers expected to be purchasing. Going in, I knew to expect a fair amount of shooter title influence. 

That pretty much sums up my feeling on the matter. I don't mind improvements and experiments provided that game keeps the same fundamental feel as it's prequel. ME2 went further down the shooter path, yep, but it was still ultimately an epic space opera about a Jack Bauer/Captain Kirk badass on a quest to unravel an ancient mystery and save the galaxy.

In Dragon Age's case, DA:O was an epic sage about (in my case) a young but talented apprentic mage who rose to become the biggest badass in the world, and ultimately saved it over an epic adventure. DA2, on the other hand, felt like a fantasy soap opera. Not my thing.