698 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

LordEurope wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

LordEurope wrote...

In fact in ME1 she could have been aboard the ship the whole time and not gotten any experience at all.

The story doesn't give a sh!t about who you did and didn't use.  This is again bringing gameplay in where it doesn't belong.

There is nothing in the story that says she was with Shepard either

[Ultai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Also, the game shows

And here's the crux of things: in the game, biotics are both nerfed  and incredibly over-broken compared to the lore. In lore, biotics aren't individuals who can through around their powers-willy-nilly for entire missions, multiple times a minute, and then simply wait for a short cooldown before doing it again.

In lore, biotics are exhausting. Like, 'Biotics need to eat two/three times as much as non-biotics to not collapse.' Like, biotic-overuse and over-exhaustion is both real and common. Biotics are capable of extreme power (as shown in the cinema, and nerfed in gameplay), but biotics are an incredible drain (as not shown in cinem, or in the gameplay) and are not capable of constant spamming (as a factor of gameplay).

Biotics are to non-biotics what sprinters are to runners. They can do a lot of very impressive damage quickly... but they can't spam it, and they can't keep it up. And without putting that limited power into barriers for themselves, they're just as vulnerable as anyone else as well.

People make a big deal out of heat sinks being inconsistent and how it screws with the lore.  Yet biotics in gameplay have always been vastly different than they are in lore.  People just need to accept the divide of gameplay and story and roll with it.

[didymos1120]

Ultai wrote...

People make a big deal out of heat sinks being inconsistent and how it screws with the lore.  Yet biotics in gameplay have always been vastly different than they are in lore.

It's because they dislike clips, but like biotics.  classic double-standard.

[Thargorichiban]

Well, at least for those Shepards that got reinstated there is no longer a conflict of interest if you romanced the VS... You're both Spectres so there shouldn't be a problem.

We can all agree to that, right?

[darknoon5]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Also, the game shows

And here's the crux of things: in the game, biotics are both nerfed  and incredibly over-broken compared to the lore. In lore, biotics aren't individuals who can through around their powers-willy-nilly for entire missions, multiple times a minute, and then simply wait for a short cooldown before doing it again.

In lore, biotics are exhausting. Like, 'Biotics need to eat two/three times as much as non-biotics to not collapse.' Like, biotic-overuse and over-exhaustion is both real and common. Biotics are capable of extreme power (as shown in the cinema, and nerfed in gameplay), but biotics are an incredible drain (as not shown in cinem, or in the gameplay) and are not capable of constant spamming (as a factor of gameplay).

Biotics are to non-biotics what sprinters are to runners. They can do a lot of very impressive damage quickly... but they can't spam it, and they can't keep it up. And without putting that limited power into barriers for themselves, they're just as vulnerable as anyone else as well.

To an average human, yes.

But

A) Kaidan is a L2, so more powerful.
Gillian had no problems crushing those two cerberus agents and showed no signs of tiredness
C) I'm sure if Gillian could image that, an Asari Matriach could do much more without tiring.

Anyway, even if biotics are very limited, they would still make you more likely to be chosen as a spectre.

[Urazz]

100k wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I'm good with this. It's not as if the VS was sitting around doing nothing while Shepard's dead ass was busy being prodded and probed on a Cerberus station by Miranda and Jacob.

Ash/Kaiden was busy taking it up the ass by her Alliance superiors. Basically went back to where they were before ME1. Garrus, on the other hand, went off, did his own thing, gathered resources, men, and fought crime. Why the hell isn't he a Spectre????

Because he didn't want to deal with the political BS that comes with the job.  For a job that doesn't have to follow laws, there's still alot of red tape and political crap one has to deal with.

[Zeratul20]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ultai wrote...

People make a big deal out of heat sinks being inconsistent and how it screws with the lore.  Yet biotics in gameplay have always been vastly different than they are in lore.

It's because they dislike clips, but like biotics.  classic double-standard.

Potentially. Gameplay wise, it would be difficult to implement a Biotic "true to the lore", though. Short of switching to a DnD Wizard/Sorcerer-style biotic, anyway.

[Almostfaceman]

Look, I searched extensively through the codex and finally found the Spectre Qualification Form.  I expected a place for a Councilor to sign their name and check marks for stuff like combat ability and "get things done" ability and biotic ability and well...

...oddly enough all I found was a place to stamp "BIOWARE SAYS SO" on it.

Even stranger was a solemn vow (signed by all the bioware devs) to laugh at "stupid fanboys who constantly moan and groan on the internet about every nit-picky thing in our game".

So, there you have it, in the codex.

[Thargorichiban]

Urazz wrote...

100k wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I'm good with this. It's not as if the VS was sitting around doing nothing while Shepard's dead ass was busy being prodded and probed on a Cerberus station by Miranda and Jacob.

Ash/Kaiden was busy taking it up the ass by her Alliance superiors. Basically went back to where they were before ME1. Garrus, on the other hand, went off, did his own thing, gathered resources, men, and fought crime. Why the hell isn't he a Spectre????

Because he didn't want to deal with the political BS that comes with the job.  For a job that doesn't have to follow laws, there's still alot of red tape and political crap one has to deal with.

Also going on his own to make his own team to fight crime in the Terminus systems does NOT make a Spectre. It's sort of the opposite of a Spectre since the Council: A. Doesn't want to be in the Terminus Systems; B. Doesn't want their agents to just go out and enact their own agenda; and C. Have their Spectres kill people in a way that doesn't benefit the Citadel and the Council species.

Honestly Garrus was just a vigilante that couldn't handle the pressure of conforming to any sort of a "structure." On the flip side he's a perfect follower for Shepard, having no real connections to the outside world.

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

A) Kaidan is a L2, so more powerful.
Gillian had no problems crushing those two cerberus agents and showed no signs of tiredness
C) I'm sure if Gillian could image that, an Asari Matriach could do much more without tiring.

Anyway, even if biotics are very limited, they would still make you more likely to be chosen as a spectre.

A) In no way counters what I said,
 Whether Gillian could keep doing so is the matter of importance: One biotic display isn't the same as a sustained effort over time
C) Asari matriarchs could (most like) do more without tiring... but that's why fully-realized Matriarchs are acknowledged as some of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. And yet even then, they aren't super-powered invincibles (see how mere Cerberus agents drugged a Matriarch and made her lose her powers).


Biotics aren't a 'win' card. They're a powerful tool, but they do come with real and serious costs, they aren't infallible, and they don't make the person who has them more capable or superior to someone who doesn't. They aren't a requirement for Spectres, and for good reason.

[Ultai]

LordEurope wrote...

Shepard was an N7 with close to a decade of combat experience, Ashley is a regular grunt with little or no experience

In ME1 she was a gunnery chief, by the time ME2 rolls around she's already at the top of the enlisted ladder.

[Dean_the_Young]

It really isn't fair to call Ashley a 'regular grunt': Ashley was a superb and exceptional grunt who kept getting **** assignments for entirely political reasons. She wasn't the norm of the Alliance caliber: she was top class, figuratively being twice as good to get half as much.

Compare that to the pre-service reputation of Shepard, before he got famous, and helping take down Saren was her 'service history' which let her be something other than a grunt.

[darknoon5]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

A) Kaidan is a L2, so more powerful.
Gillian had no problems crushing those two cerberus agents and showed no signs of tiredness
C) I'm sure if Gillian could image that, an Asari Matriach could do much more without tiring.

Anyway, even if biotics are very limited, they would still make you more likely to be chosen as a spectre.

A) In no way counters what I said,
 Whether Gillian could keep doing so is the matter of importance: One biotic display isn't the same as a sustained effort over time
C) Asari matriarchs could (most like) do more without tiring... but that's why fully-realized Matriarchs are acknowledged as some of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. And yet even then, they aren't super-powered invincibles (see how mere Cerberus agents drugged a Matriarch and made her lose her powers).


Biotics aren't a 'win' card. They're a powerful tool, but they do come with real and serious costs, they aren't infallible, and they don't make the person who has them more capable or superior to someone who doesn't. They aren't a requirement for Spectres, and for good reason.

I never said they were a requirement, I said they would make that candidate more likely to be accepted. Or do you think that being biotic is not an advantage in combat situations?

[Dean_the_Young]

darknoon5 wrote...

]I never said they were a requirement, I said they would make that candidate more likely to be accepted. Or do you think that being biotic is not an advantage in combat situations?

No. Being a biotic is an advantage in the same sense that being a tech-expert is an advantage or being a weapons-expert is an advantage. It's a tool, but not the only tool, and it's not causation factor for making someone worthy for Spectre status.

A Spectre with biotics isn't a Spectre because of his or her biotics: they're a Spectre because they're the sort of person who can put their biotics to full use. Or, if they didn't have biotics, they would be people who could put that same effort into putting an omnitool to full use. Or could put that focus into mastering every other weapon.

Biotics aren't a free add-on that makes people better. It's a trade off for other skills and abilities: that's the basis for classes and specialties, which are lore-reflected. Someone with biotics has to spend their time training to utilize them, and that's training they aren't taking to master tech expertise or combat mastery. Not even Shepard is a super-master in every field.


Thinking of the Spectres as a combat force is also a misnomer. The Spectres aren't a combat force, they're a problem solving force. If many take that to mean combat and blow up their problems... the reason that they're spectres isn't that they're good at blowing stuff up, but that even in blowing stuff up they solve problems. If they could solve problems otherwise, whether by hacking a bank account, making a precision single strike, or even avoiding combat all together... these are just as valid.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 avril 2011 - 01:42 .

[crimzontearz]

Ashley or Kaiden a spectre?

Seriously?

Aside for personal opinions on the matter of whether or not they would make good spectres I have to agree with people who want to chew them up for their actions on Horizon. I definitely want at least the option to tell then "so, while you were busy reporting to the Alliance, being hate-blinded and calling me a traitor what was the brass doing to stop the collector from abducting potentially millions of people?...oh, that's right...nothing"

[Thargorichiban]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

]I never said they were a requirement, I said they would make that candidate more likely to be accepted. Or do you think that being biotic is not an advantage in combat situations?

No. Being a biotic is an advantage in the same sense that being a tech-expert is an advantage or being a weapons-expert is an advantage. It's a tool, but not the only tool, and it's not causation factor for making someone worthy for Spectre status.

A Spectre with biotics isn't a Spectre because of his or her biotics: they're a Spectre because they're the sort of person who can put their biotics to full use. Or, if they didn't have biotics, they would be people who could put that same effort into putting an omnitool to full use. Or could put that focus into mastering every other weapon.

Biotics aren't a free add-on that makes people better. It's a trade off for other skills and abilities: that's the basis for classes and specialties, which are lore-reflected. Someone with biotics has to spend their time training to utilize them, and that's training they aren't taking to master tech expertise or combat mastery. Not even Shepard is a super-master in every field.


Thinking of the Spectres as a combat force is also a misnomer. The Spectres aren't a combat force, they're a problem solving force. If many take that to mean combat and blow up their problems... the reason that they're spectres isn't that they're good at blowing stuff up, but that even in blowing stuff up they solve problems. If they could solve problems otherwise, whether by hacking a bank account, making a precision single strike, or even avoiding combat all together... these are just as valid.

Quite a good post. I am quite sure that the Citadel employs a variety of different Spectres for different problems. For all we know there could be "white collar" Spectres out there comprised mostly of Salarians and Volus

[NKKKK]

Thinking of the Spectres as a combat force is also a misnomer. The Spectres aren't a combat force, they're a problem solving force. If many take that to mean combat and blow up their problems... the reason that they're spectres isn't that they're good at blowing stuff up, but that even in blowing stuff up they solve problems. If they could solve problems otherwise, whether by hacking a bank account, making a precision single strike, or even avoiding combat all together... these are just as valid.

It's silly to think Specters, whether hackers or biotics, wouldn't have combat skills analogues to special forces.

[Badpie]

I'm not sure how I feel about the possibility that Ash or Kaidan is a Spectre. Kind of makes it seem less special. I mean the Council had been watching Shepard for so long and chose him out of possibly thousands of potentials, you know? Ash or Kaidan, as capable as they are, might not have even made that initial list.

Although I could see it as simply a political maneuver - Ash or Kaidan thrust into the role of the only living human Spectre to fill a void both because they were involved in the mission in the first game and because that's just politics. I would imagine if they are Spectres it probably wasn't their choice and they carry a heavy burden now. They may not be the first choice or even ideal for the job, but they are the most logical solution.

[Dean_the_Young]

NKKKK wrote...

It's silly to think Specters, whether hackers or biotics, wouldn't have combat skills analogues to special forces.

Not really. The Spectres aren't a combat force, they're a problem solving force. How they solve their problems is irrelevant. The Spectres may have an inclination towards recruiting soldiers, but that's a consequence of soldiers being easy to recognize.

Spectres are analogous to Player Characters from D&D: you don't need to be a combat specialist to be an incredibly successful character.


It really comes down to this: the Spectres are, most likely, under a hundred individuals across the entire galaxy. They aren't a military army, to shape the balance of power. They aren't even strike teams. At heart, they're problem solvers. So why do they need to be special forces soldiers in order to solve problems?

Who needs combat skills, when you got this?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 avril 2011 - 02:05 .

[Shadowrun1177]

didymos1120 wrote...

Shadowrun1177 wrote...

Here's another thing why would a Spectre wear the symbol of the Spectre's on their uniform. It just wouldn't make sense cause if your doing something undercover which a Spectre is most of the time you'd make yourself standout.

Right shoulder:



Of course, she was deliberately using her status to interfere in the investigation.

Thats my bad sorry I honestly never noticed it on her shoulder, I guess I was too busy trying to kill her or other things lol.

[Kasen]

I'm not sure I think Kaidan or Ashley either one are appropriate for the Spectres. Kaidan maybe, but Ashley quite a bit less so - especially if the Council survived (I really do like them both, but based on Ash's personality, I don't know that my Shepard would even put her forward for the Spectres). That said, I wouldn't argue with both of them entering the Systems Alliance's N7 program, which from my perspective would be a huge achievement for them without stepping on Shepard's toes.

Edit for clarity: All of that said, if the writer's at Bioware do make Ashley or Kaidan a Spectre, I won't have a problem with it. I just think that N7 needs some more attention, I guess... at best it seems to get passing mentions when from my understanding N7 is a big deal.

Modifié par Kasen13, 22 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[Jzadek72]

XavierL wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

XavierL wrote...

Going on a few top-secret missions isn't enough. They lack the charisma and leadership abilities. Ash is a pawn. A really well trained and skilled pawn, but she is in no way on the level of Garrus, Miranda or any of the people already granted Spectre status.

Nope, you're wrong.

Ash is a great soldier. I am not denying that. She is spec-ops level for sure. But can she do what Shepard did?

Of course she can't, that's sorta the point.  Shep is a one-of-a-kind.

Can she do what Saren did? What about Vasir? Can she do what Garrus did on Omega? 

Yup, she can.

She has the skills to do what Garrus did, yes, but not the emotional restraint, she lacks the intellectual capabilities, and she's too much of a xenophobe to even do half the things a Spectre has to do. She says blatenly that she doesn't like aliens, and the only reason she worked with them was because Shepard was in command. A xenophobe as a Spectre? A xenophobe evaluated by the Council and then sent to do work on worlds that may not have a single human living on them? No. She's a pawn. That's it. A really well skilled pawn. Any real Spectre would laugh her out of the room if they heard her say that she was Spectre material. 

I know the thread's moved on, but I simply have to respond to this.

Garrus? Emotional restraint? Garrus is impulsive, emotional and does what he wants, when he wants. Ashley is a loyal marine. She has far more emotional restraint than Garrus.

Secondly, you seem to think that Ashley is some redneck shouting at minorities. She's not. She's just fiercely loyal to the alliance, which is part of the council now. She may not trust aliens, but she hardly seems like she'd cause a diplomatic incident with them. Plus, if you forgot, the archetypical renegade Shepard and Saren are both xenophobic, far moreso than Ash.

[Pani Mauser]

If that VS Spectre thing is true, I so hope they get their own ship and crew (like Shepard did) and stay away on support roles. This way they can be really useful (battleship+full crew I can send to fight Reapers is way better help than just one person I'll never take with me on the mission) and I don't have to see them on my ship. Win-win for me. But if it is otherwise, well, whatever, I will have a Spectre on board who is forever alone and never leaves the ship.

And in before "But they apologized after Horizon" comments, I want to remind that they apologize only when you romance them. My femShep never got e-mail from Ash and my manShep never got e-mail from Kaidan. So, on most of my playthroughs (I have Sheps for every possible romance+ two singles in case of new LIs) I never heard "I'm sorry" from them. Obviously, this letter means not that they are really sorry for their words, but that they want to get my Shep in the bed again someday, nothing more.

Also, I understand that Horizon is writers' fault, not character's fault, but nevertheless, the line was drawn there. I understand that people who really liked the characters in the first game are willing to forgive, but for me they were just another squadmates and the fact they refused even to hear my version of the story just show that they value their Alliance service more than Shepard as a person.

In first game I didn't hate them, they were just another squadmates. I, actually, never cared much about anyone aside Wrex and Garrus, but Tali and Liara grew on me in the second game. 

Tali agrees to work with you even after what Cerberus has done to her people (though to those who haven't read Ascension her actions may not seem as meaningful), she even has no problems with the geth on the team. All because she trusts Shepard personally. 

Liara saved your life while Alliance didn’t even send the team to pick up remains of the crew to give them a proper burial. They basically left ship where it fell and left corpses to rot. On Normandy crash site you have to find all the dogtags yourself. Shows how much Alliance cares! And Liara worked with Cerberus to save Shep even despite the anti-alien agenda of the organization. All because she cares for you no matter what. 

Even Dr. Chakwas, a background character from ME1, says 'I trust your dealing with Cerberus will be ethical' or something like that. So, there are people who believe that Shepard won't fall to the dark side, even if s/he has to work with the bad guys, and I appreciate them for this.

And Ash/Kaidan obviously doesn’t trust Shepard personally. While s/he was an Alliance commander, they gladly followed him/her, because Alliance approves. And even trip to Illos was opposed by politicians, but approved by Anderson, who is an Alliance captain and who was Ash/Kaidan superior before Shepard. But as soon as Shepard is not with the Alliance, they turn their back on Shep instead of taking leap of faith like Tali, Liara and Chakwas did. 

It's their choice, and it is absolutely understandable, but 'understand' doesn’t equal 'forgive' or 'like' for me. For example, someone has stolen your wallet because they wanted to eat - their reason is fully understandable, but does it make you feel good about your wallet being stolen? And betrayed friendship feels a lot worse no matter the cause. 

So if they chose the Alliance, why join Shep's afterwards? Stay with the Alliance for all I care.  I need people with personal loyalty to my Shep. And VS directly stated on Horizon that their loyalty lies with the Alliance, not with Shepard, so I don't want a person who can sabotage the mission because Alliance told them so.  

Back on topic. I hope, if VS really becomes a Spectre, there will be an option to ask them to join you (for VS-lovers) or to say that they are more useful as battleship commander and to send them on the other side of the Galaxy and never hear from them again (for people like me).

Modifié par Babe Mause, 22 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[Siansonea]

Is anyone still seriously up in arms about this? Ridonk.

I don't see the problem. It certainly makes more sense than, say:

• A drell, turian or quarian wanting to have the sexytimes with a HUMAN.
• The Hero Of The Citadel dying and being brought back to life at considerable expense by Cerberus, a terrorist organization previously working against Shepard. And...why?
• Being brought back to life. And no one caring. And...why?
• Shepard WORKING WITH CERBERUS. Kahoku-killin', Toombs-torturin', atrocity-commitin' Cerberus.
• The Reapers not having a Plan B or another relay in Dark Space to get them into the galactic relay network.
• The Collectors as agents of the Reapers. They're glorified Husks.

If the writers could make these preposterous ideas work with varying degrees of success in ME2, I have faith that they'll do justice to a Kaidan/Ashley Spectre treatment. Call me optimistic.

I suggest anyone who still thinks it's a bad idea go to that happy place in their mind, a land of milk and honey, flowing with rivers of chocolate and sweet cream. If that doesn't work, then by all means continue to rant on the Internet about how It's Not Fair™.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 22 avril 2011 - 03:49 .

[Jzadek72]

Siansonea II wrote...

Is anyone still seriously up in arms about this? Ridonk.

I don't see the problem. It certainly makes more sense than, say:

• A drell, turian or quarian wanting to have the sexytimes with a HUMAN.
 

Off topic, but if all of their HUMAN fans wanted to have sexy times with a drell, turian of quarian, the why shouldn't it go the other way?