233 réponses à ce sujet

[dreepa]

They will never admit that they messed up because there is nothing to admit. Its a good game. An outstanding game even. It just is not in line with the high expecations we have.

I think we should calm down a bit. I know we got some piece of rushed software, that is not up to Biowares high standards, but to call it "messing up" is really beyond reasonable.

There are still many good creative people at that company, so dont treat them as if they just made a bug ridden piece of crap. Its a solid game. Its just not a worthy followup to DAO.

[JPadinhaT]

I think this thread has long drifted away from its original purpose, although, the foursome is much more interesting

[Seena]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Seena wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...


Declaring arguments irrelevant does not make them so. Counter arguments are what is needed.

I'm going to assume that you won't respond to my arguments because you lack the ability to do so. Whatever that reason my be, whether it is laziness or just plain lack of intelligence, I suppose doesn't matter.

It's clear you have zero interest in actually debating anything but would rather just continue to reiterate and recycle the same post ad nauseum.

Pro's Tip: If that's all you're going to do, in the future you can save yourself time by just copy/pasting.

It's clear there's no real point of continuing this. I'm sure that Bioware loves your suggestion that nobody ever preorder a game from them again. I suspect that after DA2 there are plenty of people who will be taking you up on that advice.

Yes yes yes I bow to your emo superiority -  and relinquish sense of self  to the fact that counterarguing mindless fluff is a waste of time.

As for pre-ordering a game from Bioware - I'm betting they'd agree - if your expectations are set in stone - and you're the type that easily gets their nose bent out of shape when your expectations aren't met -  - they'd rather have you wait and decide to purchase AFTER you were more educated about said purchase.

So simple.... so very simple.

Well, got some time before the wife gets home...

I must have missed it, what part of anything at all that I posted qualifies as "emo"?

Let's review the timeline: I laid out a specific set of reasoning why Bioware shares some culpability for the disappointment that their fanbase has, regardless of the availability of online reviews. (And, I'll point out, that it has become common practice for companies to send advance copies of the game to review sites. Bioware specifically did not do so here.)

You declined to engage in any way the substance of my arguments, instead resorting to nothing more than repetition and namecalling. (Which, not surprisingly, is the entire gist of your last post as well.) Sorry, nothing in that timeline in any way is "emo".

And by what logic at all would a company, ANY company, prefer LESS customers buy their product? Seriously, explain your reasoning behind this. Name one company anywhere that wants people to buy less of their product, regardless of what it is? That statement is beyond rediculous.

You were the one to start with the personal insults - not I.

Your arguments HAD no substance - hence countering them was pointless.

I do call "emo" on ANYONE who demands/expects an apology from a company simply because they didn't, personally, like the game that company made.  That is just beyond ridiculous.

From any and all interviews with the BIOWARE team that I've read - their attitude seems to be - "We made changes, and understand that some people don't/won't like them. But we went with our gut/what we thought the fans wanted - and we stand by the decisions we made".

That says to me - they accept the fact that some people won't like the changes.  And from that I can only deduce - being aware of such changes before making the decision to buy,  wouldn't be a bad thing from their perspective.

They seem to accept the decisions they made, and take responsiblity for them. Too bad some members of the fan base - simply can't do the same thing.

[erynnar]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

..see this PROVES BioWare didn't mess up. Their characters bring people together!!

Blights also do this.

We could all hold hands? Would you wear a dress, Jack, and dance the Remigold?

[Seena]

CaptainIsabela wrote...

JPadinhaT wrote...

I think this thread has long drifted away from its original purpose, although, the foursome is much more interesting

Fivesome?? Why the hell not?!

Because odd numbers are always awkward.

[BeefoTheBold]

Seena wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Seena wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...


Declaring arguments irrelevant does not make them so. Counter arguments are what is needed.

I'm going to assume that you won't respond to my arguments because you lack the ability to do so. Whatever that reason my be, whether it is laziness or just plain lack of intelligence, I suppose doesn't matter.

It's clear you have zero interest in actually debating anything but would rather just continue to reiterate and recycle the same post ad nauseum.

Pro's Tip: If that's all you're going to do, in the future you can save yourself time by just copy/pasting.

It's clear there's no real point of continuing this. I'm sure that Bioware loves your suggestion that nobody ever preorder a game from them again. I suspect that after DA2 there are plenty of people who will be taking you up on that advice.

Yes yes yes I bow to your emo superiority -  and relinquish sense of self  to the fact that counterarguing mindless fluff is a waste of time.

As for pre-ordering a game from Bioware - I'm betting they'd agree - if your expectations are set in stone - and you're the type that easily gets their nose bent out of shape when your expectations aren't met -  - they'd rather have you wait and decide to purchase AFTER you were more educated about said purchase.

So simple.... so very simple.

Well, got some time before the wife gets home...

I must have missed it, what part of anything at all that I posted qualifies as "emo"?

Let's review the timeline: I laid out a specific set of reasoning why Bioware shares some culpability for the disappointment that their fanbase has, regardless of the availability of online reviews. (And, I'll point out, that it has become common practice for companies to send advance copies of the game to review sites. Bioware specifically did not do so here.)

You declined to engage in any way the substance of my arguments, instead resorting to nothing more than repetition and namecalling. (Which, not surprisingly, is the entire gist of your last post as well.) Sorry, nothing in that timeline in any way is "emo".

And by what logic at all would a company, ANY company, prefer LESS customers buy their product? Seriously, explain your reasoning behind this. Name one company anywhere that wants people to buy less of their product, regardless of what it is? That statement is beyond rediculous.

You were the one to start with the personal insults - not I.

Your arguments HAD no substance - hence countering them was pointless.

I do call "emo" on ANYONE who demands/expects an apology from a company simply because they didn't, personally, like the game that company made.  That is just beyond ridiculous.

From any and all interviews with the BIOWARE team that I've read - their attitude seems to be - "We made changes, and understand that some people don't/won't like them. But we went with our gut/what we thought the fans wanted - and we stand by the decisions we made".

That says to me - they accept the fact that some people won't like the changes.  And from that I can only deduce - being aware of such changes before making the decision to buy,  wouldn't be a bad thing from their perspective.

They seem to accept the decisions they made, and take responsiblity for them. Too bad some members of the fan base - simply can't do the same thing.

Actually no, I didn't start with the insults. You started with them with comments about how "whiny" everyone is.

It also would really help if you actually read what I write. This is the third time I'm going to say this in this thread. (Something you can verify by reading back.)

I don't think an apology is forthcoming and not once have I asked for one. I have simply said that Bioware shares culpability for fan disappointment for the decisions that they have made up to and including not their very strategic decision NOT to send advance copies of the game to review sites.

This directly contradicts your statement that they would prefer their customers to make informed and educated purchases or not purchase at all. If Bioware really wanted this with DA2 then they'd have done what most companies of their size do...send out advance copies to review sites. By not doing so they clearly knew that there were likely to be negative reviews and such reviews might lead to less sales. I don't really blame them either. There isn't a single company in existence that would follow your logic of, "We want to make absolutely sure that our customers know everything that's wrong with our product before they buy it to make certain they really want to buy it."

Companies don't work that way. They highlight the positive and try and hide or downplay the negatives. (Which is, in essence, what Bioware did by not letting reviewers review the game before it hit the shelves and preorders went out. Which is also another reason why my arguments from earlier are valid.)

Also, once again, simply stating something does not make it true. You can't simply state that my arguments are meaningless/pointless/irrelevant. That's not challenging the basis behind the argument. It's simply refusing to address them. If you believe these things, then you must explain WHY you believe them.

[erynnar]

Seena wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

Seena wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...


Declaring arguments irrelevant does not make them so. Counter arguments are what is needed.

I'm going to assume that you won't respond to my arguments because you lack the ability to do so. Whatever that reason my be, whether it is laziness or just plain lack of intelligence, I suppose doesn't matter.

It's clear you have zero interest in actually debating anything but would rather just continue to reiterate and recycle the same post ad nauseum.

Pro's Tip: If that's all you're going to do, in the future you can save yourself time by just copy/pasting.

It's clear there's no real point of continuing this. I'm sure that Bioware loves your suggestion that nobody ever preorder a game from them again. I suspect that after DA2 there are plenty of people who will be taking you up on that advice.

Yes yes yes I bow to your emo superiority -  and relinquish sense of self  to the fact that counterarguing mindless fluff is a waste of time.

As for pre-ordering a game from Bioware - I'm betting they'd agree - if your expectations are set in stone - and you're the type that easily gets their nose bent out of shape when your expectations aren't met -  - they'd rather have you wait and decide to purchase AFTER you were more educated about said purchase.

So simple.... so very simple.

Well, got some time before the wife gets home...

I must have missed it, what part of anything at all that I posted qualifies as "emo"?

Let's review the timeline: I laid out a specific set of reasoning why Bioware shares some culpability for the disappointment that their fanbase has, regardless of the availability of online reviews. (And, I'll point out, that it has become common practice for companies to send advance copies of the game to review sites. Bioware specifically did not do so here.)

You declined to engage in any way the substance of my arguments, instead resorting to nothing more than repetition and namecalling. (Which, not surprisingly, is the entire gist of your last post as well.) Sorry, nothing in that timeline in any way is "emo".

And by what logic at all would a company, ANY company, prefer LESS customers buy their product? Seriously, explain your reasoning behind this. Name one company anywhere that wants people to buy less of their product, regardless of what it is? That statement is beyond rediculous.

You were the one to start with the personal insults - not I.

Your arguments HAD no substance - hence countering them was pointless.

I do call "emo" on ANYONE who demands/expects an apology from a company simply because they didn't, personally, like the game that company made.  That is just beyond ridiculous.

From any and all interviews with the BIOWARE team that I've read - their attitude seems to be - "We made changes, and understand that some people don't/won't like them. But we went with our gut/what we thought the fans wanted - and we stand by the decisions we made".

That says to me - they accept the fact that some people won't like the changes.  And from that I can only deduce - being aware of such changes before making the decision to buy,  wouldn't be a bad thing from their perspective.

They seem to accept the decisions they made, and take responsiblity for them. Too bad some members of the fan base - simply can't do the same thing.

Um Seena? He never asked for an apology...just sayin'.  *hugs both Seena and Beef* okay guys you both have valid points. Let it go so the thread doesn't get locked (looks at foursome too).

[JPadinhaT]

Seena wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

JPadinhaT wrote...

I think this thread has long drifted away from its original purpose, although, the foursome is much more interesting

Fivesome?? Why the hell not?!

Because odd numbers are always awkward.

Then everyone brings a Mabari to join the party.... 

[2Hard2C]

Well, it is in my opinion, that Bioware should at least recognize the fact at a lot of people are dissatisfied and that DA2 was an overall inferior game, and they understand that.

Sure, saying nothing is "neutral" or "safe", but in all actuality they need a PR boost, because frankly it is in the tanks. I'd prefer if they admit to their mistakes, live up to them, and move on while not repeating them again. That is the more mature and adult thing to do in this circumstance.

[HyperLimited]

EAware will say a few things here and there about what they did wrong, but don't expect a public announcement that says,"We admit, we f***ed up DAII, and we're sorry."

[Seena]

BeefoTheBold wrote...



Actually no, I didn't start with the insults. You started with them with comments about how "whiny" everyone is.

It also would really help if you actually read what I write. This is the third time I'm going to say this in this thread. (Something you can verify by reading back.)

I don't think an apology is forthcoming and not once have I asked for one. I have simply said that Bioware shares culpability for fan disappointment for the decisions that they have made up to and including not their very strategic decision NOT to send advance copies of the game to review sites.

This directly contradicts your statement that they would prefer their customers to make informed and educated purchases or not purchase at all. If Bioware really wanted this with DA2 then they'd have done what most companies of their size do...send out advance copies to review sites. By not doing so they clearly knew that there were likely to be negative reviews and such reviews might lead to less sales. I don't really blame them either. There isn't a single company in existence that would follow your logic of, "We want to make absolutely sure that our customers know everything that's wrong with our product before they buy it to make certain they really want to buy it."

Companies don't work that way. They highlight the positive and try and hide or downplay the negatives. (Which is, in essence, what Bioware did by not letting reviewers review the game before it hit the shelves and preorders went out. Which is also another reason why my arguments from earlier are valid.)

Also, once again, simply stating something does not make it true. You can't simply state that my arguments are meaningless/pointless/irrelevant. That's not challenging the basis behind the argument. It's simply refusing to address them. If you believe these things, then you must explain WHY you believe them.

Whiny was directed not at you, specifically, yet you chose to have it apply - again, that is your burden, not mine.

Just as you not liking the game because you couldn't wait for reviews - is your burden, not Bioware's.

My comment SPECIFICALLY and only addressed people who expected an apology - again, you CHOSE (like you CHOSE to buy the game sans  reviews) to reply to my comment, so I can only deduce that you expected an apology.

As for your point about Bioware not sending out advanced copies- that has NO bearing WHAT-SO-EVER on YOUR decision to buy the game sight unseen.

Still you try to pass the blame.

You also take it upon yourself to speak for Bioware as to why they didn't send out copies -  that in itself is telling.

You don't know what happened (production issues preventing the sending out of advanced copies?) - yet you take the position that there was nefarious intent on Bioware's part.

Oh the big bad Bioware. Evil Bioware. They purposely made the game the way they did - to ****** fans off.

Man- o Mano.

[JPadinhaT]

The best thing we can hope for is they saying that DA2 had some points that the people didnt really enjoy and that they have fixed them in DA3. I liked DA2, but the only character I actually liked was Merrill, I also liked the conversations the NPC's had between each other but they had a few and for the rest of the Act it would be pure silence. I'm actually glad I did not play DAO because from what I've seen, if I had, I would be incredibly mad at Bioware.

[Seena]

erynnar wrote...



Um Seena? He never asked for an apology...just sayin'.  *hugs both Seena and Beef* okay guys you both have valid points. Let it go so the thread doesn't get locked (looks at foursome too).

Then why erynnar, did he reply, specifically to my comment about expecting an apology? : )

Note - my comment said NOTHING about people's right to complain, ONLY their sense of entitlement to an apology.

Modifié par Seena, 22 avril 2011 - 01:35 .

[Seena]

erynnar wrote...



Um Seena? He never asked for an apology...just sayin'.  *hugs both Seena and Beef* okay guys you both have valid points. Let it go so the thread doesn't get locked (looks at foursome too).

And erynnar - in case you missed it:

BeefoTheBold


Formal, outright apology?

Never in a million years. Or at least
not unless new management gets brought in, which will be the company's
implied way of saying that they messed up and in turn will free up the
new management to say it.

Informal apology? Well, I think how
this will show is in what some of their public statements are like and
the course that you see Dragon Age 3 developing in.

If you start
seeing previews highlighting and emphasizing things that strongly
resemble Dragon Age Origins, then you'll know that, internally at least,
they think that they made a mistake in DA2. If, on the other hand, you
see the development progression of DA3 going along the same pathlines as
DA2, then you'll know that they don't think any mistakes were made
except for perhaps not going FAR ENOUGH after the COD crowd.

And,
sadly, this will be the first time ever that I will follow the
development of a Bioware game very closely instead of deliberately
trying not to be exposed so I can be surprised. 

I'm reading that as he expects an apology that he recognizes is not forthcoming.

Modifié par Seena, 22 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[BeefoTheBold]

[quote]Seena wrote...


Whiny was directed not at you, specifically, yet you chose to have it apply - again, that is your burden, not mine.

[/quote]

 Oh? I could have sworn that this post earlier was directed specifically at me.

[quote]Seena wrote...
Wah Wah Wah

Perhaps those "loyal customers" should know - if you
have a low threashold for disappointment -  don't buy a game on release -
wait for the reviews, etc.

If you feel "ripped off" - you have only yourself to blame.
[/quote]

Are you going to claim that "Wah Wah Wah" is not the same thing as directly calling someone whiny? Quite a stretch there. Some impressive hair splitting.

[quote] Seena wrote...
Just as you not liking the game because you couldn't wait for reviews - is your burden, not Bioware's.
[/quote]

Keep repeating it. At some point, actually replying to my arguments from earlier might actually be helpful. I don't expect it, but I'm open to being pleasantly surprised.

[quote] Seena wrote...
My comment SPECIFICALLY and only addressed people who expected an apology - again, you CHOSE (like you CHOSE to buy the game sans  reviews) to reply to my comment, so I can only deduce that you expected an apology.
[/quote]

Or you could have, you know, either

A. Asked.
B. Changed your assumptions, or if you prefer "deducations", after the second time I explicitly stated in the thread that I wasn't expecting an apology. After all, it was only my very first post in the thread that said this.

[quote]BeefoTheBold said...
Formal, outright apology?

Never in a million years.
[/quote]

[quote] Seena said...
As for your point about Bioware not sending out advanced copies- that has NO bearing WHAT-SO-EVER on YOUR decision to buy the game sight unseen.

Still you try to pass the blame.
[/quote]

Since I'm tired of repeating myself, I'll simply copy paste the time earlier in this very thread that explained that you have yet to respond - still - to the reasoning I laid out earlier.

[quote]BeefoTheBold said in this exact thread...
Keep repeating it. At some point, actually replying to my arguments from earlier might actually be helpful. I don't expect it, but I'm open to being pleasantly surprised.
[/quote]

[quote]Seena said...
You also take it upon yourself to speak for Bioware as to why they didn't send out copies -  that in itself is telling.
[/quote]

Which is very funny after...

[quote]Seena said earlier...
As for pre-ordering a game from Bioware - I'm betting they'd agree - if
your expectations are set in stone - and you're the type that easily
gets their nose bent out of shape when your expectations aren't met -  -
they'd rather have you wait and decide to purchase AFTER you were more
educated about said purchase.
[/quote]

Which seems pretty hypocritical because you're saying it is "telling" that I'm interpreting Bioware's motivations after your doing the exact same thing. 

[quote]Seena said...
You don't know what happened (production issues preventing the sending out of advanced copies?) - yet you take the position that there was nefarious intent on Bioware's part.
[/quote]

Production issues prevent sending out a hundred or so extra copies to the most popular review sites a couple of weeks before release date but don't prevent them sending out hundreds of THOUSANDS of copies two weeks later?

Riiiiiighhht. That makes SO much sense. Way more logical than they chose to hold back the advance copies out of a fear of negative reviews.

[quote]Seena said...
Oh the big bad Bioware. Evil Bioware. They purposely made the game the way they did - to ****** fans off.

Man- o Mano.
[/quote]

I must have missed the part where I said Bioware purposely made a game designed to ****** fans off. Can you point out where I said that or is that a particularly easy to spot Strawman argument?

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 22 avril 2011 - 01:52 .

[Rockpopple]

Whatever problems there are with the game - and there are many - I don't expect BioWare to "apologize" for it, or even acknowledge exactly what they feel were the problems with it were. Not until a DA III is in production.

The problem isn't hubris. BioWare is a company, as is EA, and their mandate is to defend their product. Business 101. I wouldn't expect them to do anything else. Companies that come out and admit that there's something wrong with their product are usually very, very rare. Most companies only admit wrong-doing if their product kills somebody, and even then... not all the time. See BP.

Obviously I'm not comparing Dragon Age II to the BP oil spill. lol. Ahh.... nevermind. =P

[Seena]

[quote]BeefoTheBold wrote...

[quote]Seena wrote...


Whiny was directed not at you, specifically, yet you chose to have it apply - again, that is your burden, not mine.

[/quote]

 Oh? I could have sworn that this post earlier was directed specifically at me.

[quote]Seena wrote...
Wah Wah Wah

Perhaps those "loyal customers" should know - if you
have a low threashold for disappointment -  don't buy a game on release -
wait for the reviews, etc.

If you feel "ripped off" - you have only yourself to blame.
[/quote]

Are you going to claim that "Wah Wah Wah" is not the same thing as directly calling someone whiny? Quite a stretch there. Some impressive hair splitting.

[quote] Seena wrote...
Just as you not liking the game because you couldn't wait for reviews - is your burden, not Bioware's.
[/quote]

Keep repeating it. At some point, actually replying to my arguments from earlier might actually be helpful. I don't expect it, but I'm open to being pleasantly surprised.

[quote] Seena wrote...
My comment SPECIFICALLY and only addressed people who expected an apology - again, you CHOSE (like you CHOSE to buy the game sans  reviews) to reply to my comment, so I can only deduce that you expected an apology.
[/quote]

Or you could have, you know, either

A. Asked.
B. Changed your assumptions, or if you prefer "deducations", after the second time I explicitly stated in the thread that I wasn't expecting an apology. After all, it was only my very first post in the thread that said this.

[quote]BeefoTheBold said...
Formal, outright apology?

Never in a million years.
[/quote]

[quote] Seena said...
As for your point about Bioware not sending out advanced copies- that has NO bearing WHAT-SO-EVER on YOUR decision to buy the game sight unseen.

Still you try to pass the blame.
[/quote]

Since I'm tired of repeating myself, I'll simply copy paste the time earlier in this very thread that explained that you have yet to respond - still - to the reasoning I laid out earlier.

[quote]BeefoTheBold said in this exact thread...
Keep repeating it. At some point, actually replying to my arguments from earlier might actually be helpful. I don't expect it, but I'm open to being pleasantly surprised.
[/quote]

[quote]Seena said...
You also take it upon yourself to speak for Bioware as to why they didn't send out copies -  that in itself is telling.
[/quote]

Which is very funny after...

[quote]Seena said earlier...
As for pre-ordering a game from Bioware - I'm betting they'd agree - if
your expectations are set in stone - and you're the type that easily
gets their nose bent out of shape when your expectations aren't met -  -
they'd rather have you wait and decide to purchase AFTER you were more
educated about said purchase.
[/quote]

Which seems pretty hypocritical because you're saying it is "telling" that I'm interpreting Bioware's motivations after your doing the exact same thing. 

[quote]Seena said...
You don't know what happened (production issues preventing the sending out of advanced copies?) - yet you take the position that there was nefarious intent on Bioware's part.
[/quote]

Production issues prevent sending out a hundred or so extra copies to the most popular review site a couple of weeks before release date but don't prevent them sending out hundreds of THOUSANDS of copies two weeks later?

Riiiiiighhht. That makes SO much sense. Way more logical than they chose to hold back the advance copies out of a fear of negative reviews.

[quote]Seena said...
Oh the big bad Bioware. Evil Bioware. They purposely made the game the way they did - to ****** fans off.

Man- o Mano.
[/quote]

I must have missed the part where I said Bioware purposely made a game designed to ****** fans off. Can you point out where I said that or is that a particularly easy to spot Strawman argument?

[/quote]

Refer to the previous post.

: )

And just a bit of friendly advice? To save yourself such disappointment and frustration?  In the future, wait until enough game reviews are available to make an informed purchase.  : )

Modifié par Seena, 22 avril 2011 - 01:52 .

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

Whatever problems there are with the game - and there are many - I don't expect BioWare to "apologize" for it, or even acknowledge exactly what they feel were the problems with it were. Not until a DA III is in production.

The problem isn't hubris. BioWare is a company, as is EA, and their mandate is to defend their product. Business 101. I wouldn't expect them to do anything else. Companies that come out and admit that there's something wrong with their product are usually very, very rare. Most companies only admit wrong-doing if their product kills somebody, and even then... not all the time. See BP.

Obviously I'm not comparing Dragon Age II to the BP oil spill. lol. Ahh.... nevermind. =P

Omg did we agree on something>??????

Do you think the Orlesian Bards will put this in song?????

[Cutlass Jack]

erynnar wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

..see this PROVES BioWare didn't mess up. Their characters bring people together!!

Blights also do this.

We could all hold hands? Would you wear a dress, Jack, and dance the Remigold?

Well for you maybe. But it would have to be a pretty dress.

[Rockpopple]

Been there. It was called Final Fantasy XIII. That game made me want to punch a puppy. No seriously, at the end of FFXIII I was actually, physically angry. I felt like punching a wall. I'll never trust SquareEnix again. Ever.

[Seena]

Rockpopple wrote...

Been there. It was called Final Fantasy XIII. That game made me want to punch a puppy. No seriously, at the end of FFXIII I was actually, physically angry. I felt like punching a wall. I'll never trust SquareEnix again. Ever.

Meh I liked it.  I guess that moment that we agreed is fleeting