281 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

KOTOR II was head and shoulders above the first game, even in its unfinished and unmodded state. I'd be hard pressed to find a more impressive and original antagonist than Kreia, especially in the juvenile, shallow black-and-white morality world of Star Wars. If anything, the IP constrained what Obsidian wanted to achieve. There's simply no room for such a degree of darkness and ambiguity in that childish fantasy.

Modifié par marshalleck, 22 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[scottelite]

There was a thread on the ME boards where someone thought Obsidian should make ME3.

[FedericoV]

marshalleck wrote...

KOTOR II was head and shoulders above the first game, even in its unfinished and unmodded state.

Kotor 2 was a massive failure. The brilliant ideas here and there do not change the unfinished and bugged state of the game at release.

[KLUME777]

I would really like it. I really liked KotOR 2, and i really liked Fallout: New Vegas. If they did it DAO style, it would be fantastic.

Also, i know that KotOR 2 was rushed near the end, but i didn't get that at all for F:NV (besides the bugs of coarse, and there is another update coming next week), so if they can replicate that for DA, then i would be very happy.

EDIT: And ultimately, i think Obsidion are better writers than Bioware anyway. KotOR 2, unfinished as it was, had better characters and dialogue than KotOR 1, not to mention replayability. And New vegas was of coarse miles ahead of Bethesda in almost every department (story, characters, role playing and gameplay).

Modifié par KLUME777, 22 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[AkiKishi]

FedericoV wrote...

Dragon Age 2
Kotor 2 was a massive failure. The brilliant ideas here and there do not change the unfinished and bugged state of the game at release.

Funny how that works so well.

[AlexXIV]

Bioware is making unique games. Or they are making games unique. Both is true. So Obsidian or anyone else makeing the games wouldn't be the same. It would just be like Oblivion or Skyrim. And they make these games already, so it makes no sense. From my point of view the DA team needs either more time or more manpower. That's how I see it.

[KLUME777]

AlexXIV wrote...

Bioware is making unique games. Or they are making games unique. Both is true. So Obsidian or anyone else makeing the games wouldn't be the same. It would just be like Oblivion or Skyrim. And they make these games already, so it makes no sense. From my point of view the DA team needs either more time or more manpower. That's how I see it.

How would it be Oblivion or Skyrim? Thats Betheda.

And i got no feeling of uniquness from DA2. The irony is that Bioware were trying to move away from the "Bioware Uniqueness" and closer towards accessible action game to get a bigger audience. There was nothing unique because DAO had the better implemented world and ME had the better implemented gameplay that DA2 tried to steal. And other platformes/Hack 'n' Slash like God of War, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry atc. had better combat.

[elearon1]

FedericoV wrote...
Kotor 2 was a massive failure. The brilliant ideas here and there do not change the unfinished and bugged state of the game at release.

Considering the game was unfinished because it was forced out months ahead of schedule by Lucas Arts, one can hardly blame Obsidian for that.  

Having just started playing KotoR 2 again, I have to admit I'd almost forgotten how good many aspects of that game were.  For instance, I just finished having a very amusing talk with an HK droid that was well written, entertaining, important to the story, and lasted about 20 minutes: one conversation.

As someone else said, Kreia was very engaging character, (though there were real similarities between her and PS:T's Ravel - anyone who didn't see this was in denial) as were most of the companions and villains throughout the story. (for all that he didn't talk, Darth Nihlus was a very intriguing figure)

When this question came up my first instinct was to say "hell no!" ... and, while I would still hate to see the IP leave Bioware's hands, if it had to, I could probably feel comfortable with Obsidian taking over the reigns. 

[FedericoV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Dragon Age 2
Kotor 2 was a massive failure. The brilliant ideas here and there do not change the unfinished and bugged state of the game at release.

Funny how that works so well.

I believe too that most DA2 flaws were caused by the short development cycle and that the game was rushed for release. But you can't really compare Kotor2 and DA2. DA2 is a Blizzard game compared to Kotor2.

A more fair comparison would be DA2 and NWN2 (both finished but rushed games). And still, DA2 was more polished. I remember downloading something like gigas of patches at release with NWN2 and the game was still bugged as hell.

And don't make me talk about the NWN2 camera. Oh god, that was a disaster.

Modifié par FedericoV, 22 avril 2011 - 09:34 .

[AlexXIV]

KLUME777 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Bioware is making unique games. Or they are making games unique. Both is true. So Obsidian or anyone else makeing the games wouldn't be the same. It would just be like Oblivion or Skyrim. And they make these games already, so it makes no sense. From my point of view the DA team needs either more time or more manpower. That's how I see it.

How would it be Oblivion or Skyrim? Thats Betheda.

And i got no feeling of uniquness from DA2. The irony is that Bioware were trying to move away from the "Bioware Uniqueness" and closer towards accessible action game to get a bigger audience. There was nothing unique because DAO had the better implemented world and ME had the better implemented gameplay that DA2 tried to steal. And other platformes/Hack 'n' Slash like God of War, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry atc. had better combat.

I said Obsidian or anyone and maybe I should have said FONV or Skyrim but I wanted to stick with the medivial themed games. Bioware made NWN and Obsidian NWN2, and most people I think thought that the original was better. Bioware made KotOR and Obsidian KotOR2. A lot of people think the original was better. Point is, Obsidian taking over would not really guarantee a better product. I think Bioware are best at what they are doing, and anyone trying to copy them would fail. But even Bioware can't just fart good games. Even the best need to take time and put effort in a game, especially an RPG, to make it great. And I think the biggest mistake was to annouce a deadline for release one year in advance. Only 2-3 months more and half the complaints would never have happened. And if they had taken one more year a great majority of people would probably have had a consensus of DA2 being superior to DA:O. So don't blame the people, blame the working conditions.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 avril 2011 - 09:30 .

[FedericoV]

elearon1 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...
Kotor 2 was a massive failure. The brilliant ideas here and there do not change the unfinished and bugged state of the game at release.

Considering the game was unfinished because it was forced out months ahead of schedule by Lucas Arts, one can hardly blame Obsidian for that.  

Infact, I don't give all the blame to Obsidian too, but here I smell some hipocrisy or at least some case of double standard. Mind, I love Obsidian and I owe all their games. They are my second favourite RPG developer. But if Obsidian do not like the schedule that they agreed to work on in Kotor2, they could have make a step back and do not develop the game. You know, Obsidian games are not cheaper than Bioware ones.

So, I don't get why people here are so forgiving with Obsidian constant lack of polish (a trend of their entire catalogue, from Kotor 2 to FO:NV wich are all rushed to some degree) when they are so willing to criticize Bioware for any little thing. At least DA2 is a finished game with little "game breaking" flaws. Rushed? Yes. Unpolished or unfinished? Hell, no.

[Lumikki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Interesting idea, but no, I don't think it would be better. I mean Kotor 1 was Biowares, but I don't think Kotor 2 was better.

KOTOR II was one of the great "what if" moments of gaming history. What is most telling is that even a half finished game compared favourably with a lot of people. Had KOTORII actually been allowed to ship with it's  intended ending who knows how things would have changed.

You mean Kotor II could have been good game, if THEY would have been enough time actually finish the game. How is DA2 different? I mean Kotor II had so many bugs that it was actually hard to play it. I ques they did not have time enough to polish the game. What's in DA2 is "polished" done, it's just lack of things, what's the problem. Like re-used maps and end of story is missing.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 avril 2011 - 09:45 .

[AlexXIV]

Lumikki wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Interesting idea, but no, I don't think it would be better. I mean Kotor 1 was Biowares, but I don't think Kotor 2 was better.

KOTOR II was one of the great "what if" moments of gaming history. What is most telling is that even a half finished game compared favourably with a lot of people. Had KOTORII actually been allowed to ship with it's  intended ending who knows how things would have changed.

You mean it could have been good game, if THEY would have been enough time actually finish the game. How is DA2 different? I mean Kotor II had so many bugs that it was actually hard to play it. I ques they did not ahve time enough to polish the game. What's in DA2 is well done, it's just lack of what's doen what's the problem. Like re-used maps and end of story is missing.

It's not just the polishing, it is also the cutting corners. Like in KotOR2 half of the endgame was cut to meet the deadline. I think in DA2 many quests were cut and some probably left out entirely which just enforced the feeling of 'streamlinedness'. I don't even want to know how many of possible content is somewhere on bioware servers and never used because they had to meet the deadline. Which is not just a shame, but a waste.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[KLUME777]

AlexXIV wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Bioware is making unique games. Or they are making games unique. Both is true. So Obsidian or anyone else makeing the games wouldn't be the same. It would just be like Oblivion or Skyrim. And they make these games already, so it makes no sense. From my point of view the DA team needs either more time or more manpower. That's how I see it.

How would it be Oblivion or Skyrim? Thats Betheda.

And i got no feeling of uniquness from DA2. The irony is that Bioware were trying to move away from the "Bioware Uniqueness" and closer towards accessible action game to get a bigger audience. There was nothing unique because DAO had the better implemented world and ME had the better implemented gameplay that DA2 tried to steal. And other platformes/Hack 'n' Slash like God of War, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry atc. had better combat.

I said Obsidian or anyone and maybe I should have said FONV or Skyrim but I wanted to stick with the medivial themed games. Bioware made NWN and Obsidian NWN2, and most people I think thought that the original was better. Bioware made KotOR and Obsidian KotOR2. A lot of people think the original was better. Point is, Obsidian taking over would not really guarantee a better product. I think Bioware are best at what they are doing, and anyone trying to copy them would fail. But even Bioware can't just fart good games. Even the best need to take time and put effort in a game, especially an RPG, to make it great. And I think the biggest mistake was to annouce a deadline for release one year in advance. Only 2-3 months more and half the complaints would never have happened. And if they had taken one more year a great majority of people would probably have had a consensus of DA2 being superior to DA:O. So don't blame the people, blame the working conditions.

Actually, most people ive met thought NWN 2 was better than original, but ive never played either. However i do think that KotOR 2 was a lot better than KotOR 1. Its Dialogue, characters, gameplay, role playing and locations are much better, and since Lucas Arts rushed them, they did a terrific job.

So far, all the games Obsidion have taken over, i have liked better (KotOR, Fallout), so i would not mind at all if they took over DA, especially if Bioware makes DA3 like DA2. I really don't give a rats ass what other people thought, i really enjoy Obsidions games, and they dont make games for the lowest common denominator.

And i dont believe DA2 would have been better than DAO, even if it did get an extra 10 months or so, simply because of some core fundamental changes. That is, set character with voiced protagonist, Dialogue wheel, set in one City (assuming the story doesn't change drastically), major changes to the combat for the worse, not as good story. And i think the game would still be streamlined. I thought DAO was great as it was, only needed a few touch ups, not streamlining, which although benifitted Mass Effect (because ME1 did need some big changes), DAO did not need.

Mike Laidlaw would still go ahead with his changes, and i don't prefer those changes.

[KLUME777]

simfamSP wrote...

*insert very angry post here*

Why the ****, after one game (which wasn't that bad, just not Bioware,) is Bioware ruined? Give them a ****ing break! Obsidian have what? Made two mediocre Bioware games KOTOR II and NWN II. One underrated game, a few others, and then FO:NV, which is so buggy you can't even play it. And then they REFUSE to fix it?!

No. Unless you want a open world RPG for DA no...not at all.

Ive finished it a number of times, all over 100 hours, and there is actually another patch (3rd or 4th?) coming out next week.

[Kilshrek]

I'll wait for DS 3 to form my opinion on Obsidian. Criticism of New Vegas is slightly unfair since it had to run on Fallout 3's crap engine anyway, and if anything it brought back more of a Fallout feel to the series. Bethesda butchered Fallout 3. But I don't think it would be a good idea, even before licensing issues and whatnot, to change developers after a second game has been released, no matter how crap some of us feel it is.

[AlexXIV]

KLUME777 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Bioware is making unique games. Or they are making games unique. Both is true. So Obsidian or anyone else makeing the games wouldn't be the same. It would just be like Oblivion or Skyrim. And they make these games already, so it makes no sense. From my point of view the DA team needs either more time or more manpower. That's how I see it.

How would it be Oblivion or Skyrim? Thats Betheda.

And i got no feeling of uniquness from DA2. The irony is that Bioware were trying to move away from the "Bioware Uniqueness" and closer towards accessible action game to get a bigger audience. There was nothing unique because DAO had the better implemented world and ME had the better implemented gameplay that DA2 tried to steal. And other platformes/Hack 'n' Slash like God of War, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry atc. had better combat.

I said Obsidian or anyone and maybe I should have said FONV or Skyrim but I wanted to stick with the medivial themed games. Bioware made NWN and Obsidian NWN2, and most people I think thought that the original was better. Bioware made KotOR and Obsidian KotOR2. A lot of people think the original was better. Point is, Obsidian taking over would not really guarantee a better product. I think Bioware are best at what they are doing, and anyone trying to copy them would fail. But even Bioware can't just fart good games. Even the best need to take time and put effort in a game, especially an RPG, to make it great. And I think the biggest mistake was to annouce a deadline for release one year in advance. Only 2-3 months more and half the complaints would never have happened. And if they had taken one more year a great majority of people would probably have had a consensus of DA2 being superior to DA:O. So don't blame the people, blame the working conditions.

Actually, most people ive met thought NWN 2 was better than original, but ive never played either. However i do think that KotOR 2 was a lot better than KotOR 1. Its Dialogue, characters, gameplay, role playing and locations are much better, and since Lucas Arts rushed them, they did a terrific job.

So far, all the games Obsidion have taken over, i have liked better (KotOR, Fallout), so i would not mind at all if they took over DA, especially if Bioware makes DA3 like DA2. I really don't give a rats ass what other people thought, i really enjoy Obsidions games, and they dont make games for the lowest common denominator.

And i dont believe DA2 would have been better than DAO, even if it did get an extra 10 months or so, simply because of some core fundamental changes. That is, set character with voiced protagonist, Dialogue wheel, set in one City (assuming the story doesn't change drastically), major changes to the combat for the worse, not as good story. And i think the game would still be streamlined. I thought DAO was great as it was, only needed a few touch ups, not streamlining, which although benifitted Mass Effect (because ME1 did need some big changes), DAO did not need.

Mike Laidlaw would still go ahead with his changes, and i don't prefer those changes.

I am a Bioware fan and I played all their games since BG. I also played all Obsidian and Bethesda games mind you, since I am a RPG fan. I don't really see the point of throwing dirt at one of the 3 best RPG producers. There are not really many options. We should be happy about every company making RPGs while they could probably make more money just doing genres which are doing better in the mass market.

I liked the basic concept and the core changes in DA2. I just didn't like the execution which is mostly due to it being a rush job which does not exactly support creativity. I don't exactly know the development processes but I think it contains alot of revising and changing things until the product is finished. So you can assume that a product that does have one year less development time simply is not as throught-out as a a game with one year more. We don't know how DA:O looked after 2 years, or 3 years, or 4 years ... we know what it looked like after 5 years and I liked it. We know what DA2 looks like after 2 years, but we have no clue what could have been in there after 3 years.
  
Really I don't know how giving Bioware a bad name does serve anyone. As far as I am concerned they have made the best RPGs ever, and only misstepped once. And it wasn't even a total misstep.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 avril 2011 - 09:58 .

[KLUME777]

AlexXIV wrote...

*snip*

I am a Bioware fan and I played all their games since BG. I also played all Obsidian and Bethesda games mind you, since I am a RPG fan. I don't really see the point of throwing dirt at one of the 3 best RPG producers. There are not really many options. We should be happy about every company making RPGs while they could probably make more money just doing genres which are doing better in the mass market.

I liked the basic concept and the core changes in DA2. I just didn't like the execution which is mostly due to it being a rush job which does not exactly support creativity. I don't exactly know the development processes but I think it contains alot of revising and changing things until the product is finished. So you can assume that a product that does have one year less development time simply is not as throught-out as a a game with one year more. We don't know how DA:O looked after 2 years, or 3 years, or 4 years ... we know what it looked like after 5 years and I liked it. We know what DA2 looks like after 2 years, but we have no clue what could have been in there after 3 years.
  
Really I don't know how giving Bioware a bad name does serve anyone. As far as I am concerned they have made the best RPGs ever, and only misstepped once. And it wasn't even a total misstep.

I am not throwing dirt on Bioware, i am genuinely very dissapointed in there latest product, as im allowed to be as a consumer. And i wouldn't give Bioware my money for a game that i think tarnished the series. I would vote with my dollars.

As i said, i dislike the core fundamentals of Dragon Age 2, so i would still be dissapointed no matter its developement time. Mike Laidlaw would still have his changes, which he believes even now are really good. I like Mass Effect, but its not my favourite type of RPG and i'd much rather the DAO style. If Bioware continues like this, then i would lose respect for them.

Ive never lost respect in Obsidion, and everything they put in there games is something i like. So i would not mind one bit if Obsidion took over. I wouldn't mind if Bioware kept it either, because personally i think they learned from there mistake and will probably go back to a more Origins style, but either way i'd be happy.

Modifié par KLUME777, 22 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[AlexXIV]

Kilshrek wrote...

I'll wait for DS 3 to form my opinion on Obsidian. Criticism of New Vegas is slightly unfair since it had to run on Fallout 3's crap engine anyway, and if anything it brought back more of a Fallout feel to the series. Bethesda butchered Fallout 3. But I don't think it would be a good idea, even before licensing issues and whatnot, to change developers after a second game has been released, no matter how crap some of us feel it is.

I don't know, the original fallout 3 had more of a fallout feel for me than FONV: I like FONV just as much if not more but it was more like a mixture of wild west and fallout, while fallout3 was pure fallout. And I also play Fallout games since the first. And if you compare New Reno to New Vegas you also have to admit that a lack of interaction within the casinos is more than obvious. Or just look at the expansion. Do you realize how many people's game crashes and never recovers after installing Dead Money? And the only response from Obsidian is 'update your drivers' with didn't fix anything.

I really think people should at least be fair with criticism. I also criticize DA2, but there is no reason to go easier on Obsidian or Bethesda. They are all in the same boat anyway.

[Lumikki]

AlexXIV wrote...

It's not just the polishing, it is also the cutting corners. Like in KotOR2 half of the endgame was cut to meet the deadline. I think in DA2 many quests were cut and some probably left out entirely which just enforced the feeling of 'streamlinedness'. I don't even want to know how many of possible content is somewhere on bioware servers and never used because they had to meet the deadline. Which is not just a shame, but a waste.

Yeah, I mean every game has bugs and sometimes companies cut corners because dead lines. Both are bad thing.

How ever, I don't like how some people here blames Bioware and then thinks that someone other company is better. When they have done same and have same problems too. It's just idiotic blindless. I don't know what's wrong with these people, but you just can't blame some company and say other is better, if they game have even same problems. Also other thing is they blame game company not meeting they personal expectations, what these people have defined by them self. It's allways about blaming others, never damm they look mirror, where the real issue is.

Yeah, I think these people should learn to respect others work more. I mean If I look any Biowares game, I would NEVER beeen able to make so good work my self. It's just idiotic to demand perfect games and also so that they are desined to fit every players personal taste of games perfectly.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[AlexXIV]

KLUME777 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

*snip*

I am a Bioware fan and I played all their games since BG. I also played all Obsidian and Bethesda games mind you, since I am a RPG fan. I don't really see the point of throwing dirt at one of the 3 best RPG producers. There are not really many options. We should be happy about every company making RPGs while they could probably make more money just doing genres which are doing better in the mass market.

I liked the basic concept and the core changes in DA2. I just didn't like the execution which is mostly due to it being a rush job which does not exactly support creativity. I don't exactly know the development processes but I think it contains alot of revising and changing things until the product is finished. So you can assume that a product that does have one year less development time simply is not as throught-out as a a game with one year more. We don't know how DA:O looked after 2 years, or 3 years, or 4 years ... we know what it looked like after 5 years and I liked it. We know what DA2 looks like after 2 years, but we have no clue what could have been in there after 3 years.
  
Really I don't know how giving Bioware a bad name does serve anyone. As far as I am concerned they have made the best RPGs ever, and only misstepped once. And it wasn't even a total misstep.

I am not throwing dirt on Bioware, i am genuinely very dissapointed in there latest product, as im allowed to be as a consumer. And i wouldn't give Bioware my money for a game that i think tarnished the series. I would vote with my dollars.

As i said, i dislike the core fundamentals of Dragon Age 2, so i would still be dissapointed no matter its developement time. Mike Laidlaw would still have his changes, which he believes even now are really good. I like Mass Effect, but its not my favourite type of RPG and i'd much rather the DAO style. If Bioware continues like this, then i would lose respect for them.

Ive never lost respect in Obsidion, and everything they put in there games is something i like. So i would not mind one bit if Obsidion took over. I wouldn't mind if Bioware kept it either, because personally i think they learned from there mistake and will probably go back to a more Origins style, but either way i'd be happy.

Sorry but KotOR2 ruined the series. Because of KotOR2 there was never a KotOR3 and we now get a MMO which is btw made by Bioware and not Obsidian. If you can forgive Obsidian for KotOR2 then you can forgive Bioware for DA2. Unless you just don't want to, which is fine, if not really fair imo.

[KLUME777]

AlexXIV wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

*snip*

I am a Bioware fan and I played all their games since BG. I also played all Obsidian and Bethesda games mind you, since I am a RPG fan. I don't really see the point of throwing dirt at one of the 3 best RPG producers. There are not really many options. We should be happy about every company making RPGs while they could probably make more money just doing genres which are doing better in the mass market.

I liked the basic concept and the core changes in DA2. I just didn't like the execution which is mostly due to it being a rush job which does not exactly support creativity. I don't exactly know the development processes but I think it contains alot of revising and changing things until the product is finished. So you can assume that a product that does have one year less development time simply is not as throught-out as a a game with one year more. We don't know how DA:O looked after 2 years, or 3 years, or 4 years ... we know what it looked like after 5 years and I liked it. We know what DA2 looks like after 2 years, but we have no clue what could have been in there after 3 years.
  
Really I don't know how giving Bioware a bad name does serve anyone. As far as I am concerned they have made the best RPGs ever, and only misstepped once. And it wasn't even a total misstep.

I am not throwing dirt on Bioware, i am genuinely very dissapointed in there latest product, as im allowed to be as a consumer. And i wouldn't give Bioware my money for a game that i think tarnished the series. I would vote with my dollars.

As i said, i dislike the core fundamentals of Dragon Age 2, so i would still be dissapointed no matter its developement time. Mike Laidlaw would still have his changes, which he believes even now are really good. I like Mass Effect, but its not my favourite type of RPG and i'd much rather the DAO style. If Bioware continues like this, then i would lose respect for them.

Ive never lost respect in Obsidion, and everything they put in there games is something i like. So i would not mind one bit if Obsidion took over. I wouldn't mind if Bioware kept it either, because personally i think they learned from there mistake and will probably go back to a more Origins style, but either way i'd be happy.

Sorry but KotOR2 ruined the series. Because of KotOR2 there was never a KotOR3 and we now get a MMO which is btw made by Bioware and not Obsidian. If you can forgive Obsidian for KotOR2 then you can forgive Bioware for DA2. Unless you just don't want to, which is fine, if not really fair imo.

Thats where i disagree, because KotOR 2 was one of my favourite games of all time, i must have played it too many times to count, close to 20 probably....and DA2 was simply unfun. So i don't see any comparison at all between KotOR 2 and DA2.