244 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

Heavensrun wrote...

Hmmm...How -are- they going to villianize the Illusive man? (reads the ME novels, and looks at the things the guy is involved with in ME and ME2.) Oh, right! He's ALWAYS BEEN a villian!

Mass Effect spends an entire game making you hate Cerberus. Cerberus is responsible for a large portion of the evil deeds in that game. Then you come into ME2, and apart from reviving Shep and building the Normandy, virtually everything in -that- game that Cerberus is involved with is highly questionable. Then you've got the novels, which consistently paint Cerberus as the bad guys.

Anybody who says TIM isn't already villian material because he claimed he wasn't directly involved in the bad stuff is SERIOUSLY GULLIBLE, as well as exceptionally deluded.

   





I am sorry but a Man and his company spends 4 Billion credits to bring back Shepard and give him a new Ship and now after ME 2 he is back to be a evil bastard . I am not buying it at all . If he was after Shepard he would have never brought him back to start with . Bioware is making Cerberus the fall guys because the reaper story is stupid and has a bunch of dumb crap in it . So they need a enemy that will make ME 3 not look so f**king stupid .   

[Labrev]

We've seen how Cerberus let Shepard run the Lazarus cell. Based on what we know of Cerberus, my guess as far as how Teltin went down is pretty much:

--> TIM decides he wants to devote a cell to creating a human superbiotic.
--> TIM sets up cell with scientists and a project director to oversee it with the very specific goal: create human superbiotic. This project director has free reign, can run the project however he sees fit, just get the results in the end (... "free reign", sound familiar?)
--> TIM then turns a blind eye to cell. Extent of TIM's oversight on cell is likely limited to an occaisional check-in kind of thing.
--> One fateful day, a group of kids rebel and attack the scientists. Subject Zero breaks lose, cell goes into state of emergency and effectively implodes.
--> TIM learns of details of Teltin cell, does a save-face and says "it went rogue." Of course, that was the plan all along. If Teltin achieved the desired results, what happened there wouldn't matter to him. If it failed as it did, he could disavow any knowledge of its activities.
--> Nonetheless, relocated children will retell experiences of what they remembered of the cell. Idiots like Miranda believe TIM's story, but most others aren't fooled and Cerberus' reputation suffers.

Project Overlord was run very much the same way. TIM didn't know what was really going on, just that results weren't being had and was threatening to shut-down the cell.

[Admoniter]

ExtremeOne wrote...
I am sorry but a Man and his company spends 4 Billion credits to bring back Shepard and give him a new Ship and now after ME 2 he is back to be a evil bastard . I am not buying it at all . If he was after Shepard he would have never brought him back to start with . Bioware is making Cerberus the fall guys because the reaper story is stupid and has a bunch of dumb crap in it . So they need a enemy that will make ME 3 not look so f**king stupid .  

Not true Cerberus' character has been all over the board since day one. I mean...

ME1 Cerberus = An agency so incompetent that they have earned the Umbrella Corp. seal of approval.

ME2 Cerberus = We don't play by the rules but we are the only ones trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers

Book Cerberus = That + we really don't like aliens, what a bunch of savages.

ME3 = Hurr Durr I am evul for no aparant raisin...

OMG Fry is the lead writer for ME3.

Modifié par Admoniter, 22 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[Seboist]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

We've seen how Cerberus let Shepard run the Lazarus cell. Based on what we know of Cerberus, my guess as far as how Teltin went down is pretty much:

--> TIM decides he wants to devote a cell to creating a human superbiotic.
--> TIM sets up cell with scientists and a project director to oversee it with the very specific goal: create human superbiotic. This project director has free reign, can run the project however he sees fit, just get the results in the end (... "free reign", sound familiar?)
--> TIM then turns a blind eye to cell. Extent of TIM's oversight on cell is likely limited to an occaisional check-in kind of thing.
--> One fateful day, a group of kids rebel and attack the scientists. Subject Zero breaks lose, cell goes into state of emergency and effectively implodes.
--> TIM learns of details of Teltin cell, does a save-face and says "it went rogue." Of course, that was the plan all along. If Teltin achieved the desired results, what happened there wouldn't matter to him. If it failed as it did, he could disavow any knowledge of its activities.
--> Nonetheless, relocated children will retell experiences of what they remembered of the cell. Idiots like Miranda believe TIM's story, but most others aren't fooled and Cerberus' reputation suffers.

Project Overlord was run very much the same way. TIM didn't know what was really going on, just that results weren't being had and was threatening to shut-down the cell.

Yep, Cerberus is all about plausible deniability  and automony. TIM is largely just a financier and strategic planner,not a guy that tries to micromanage everything.

He gives Shepard a lot of free reign and allows him to do things he admits he would have done differently(letting Grunt out of the tank and not sending Legion to Cerberus). The only exception is if Shepard decides to destroy the Collector Base and tries to get Miranda to override his descision.

[ExtremeOne]

Admoniter wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
I am sorry but a Man and his company spends 4 Billion credits to bring back Shepard and give him a new Ship and now after ME 2 he is back to be a evil bastard . I am not buying it at all . If he was after Shepard he would have never brought him back to start with . Bioware is making Cerberus the fall guys because the reaper story is stupid and has a bunch of dumb crap in it . So they need a enemy that will make ME 3 not look so f**king stupid .  

Not true Cerberus' character has been all over the board since day one. I mean...

ME1 Cerberus = An agency so incompetent that they have earned the Umbrella Corp. seal of approval.

ME2 Cerberus = We don't play by the rules but we are the only ones trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers

Book Cerberus = That + we really don't like aliens, what a bunch of savages.

ME3 = Hurr Durr I am evul for no aparant raisin...

OMG Fry is the lead writer for ME3.

  



You just proved that Bioware has not told a straight story in ME games . If Cerberus has had 3 retcons already . then what is the true thing to make them evil .  The story in ME 3 is starting to not make sense at all . and in fact the story of the ME games is not making sense . Because at least in the Resident Evil games Umbrella was evil Capcom did not change that.  There are major plot holes in the ME story and in ME 3 . Bioware has no idea on how to tell a story . 

[Seboist]

It really does seem like Bioware can't make up it's mind on what Cerberus is supposed to be. In ME1 they were a "Alliance black op that went rogue" and then in ME2 they're this shady group that merely has some high ranking Alliance people supporting them. Now in ME3 it seems they're taking the place of the Blue Suns/Blood Pack/Eclipse.

Modifié par Seboist, 22 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[Foolsfolly]

Admoniter wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
I am sorry but a Man and his company spends 4 Billion credits to bring back Shepard and give him a new Ship and now after ME 2 he is back to be a evil bastard . I am not buying it at all . If he was after Shepard he would have never brought him back to start with . Bioware is making Cerberus the fall guys because the reaper story is stupid and has a bunch of dumb crap in it . So they need a enemy that will make ME 3 not look so f**king stupid .  

Not true Cerberus' character has been all over the board since day one. I mean...

ME1 Cerberus = An agency so incompetent that they have earned the Umbrella Corp. seal of approval.

ME2 Cerberus = We don't play by the rules but we are the only ones trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers

Book Cerberus = That + we really don't like aliens, what a bunch of savages.

ME3 = Hurr Durr I am evul for no aparant raisin...

OMG Fry is the lead writer for ME3.

Imagine me, a guy who's never read the books or comics, trying to make sense of it. Cerberus went from this vague threat like the Shadow Broker, one I thought I destroyed in ME1. The only reference to a leader being some kind of 'General.'

I assumed the 'General' was one of three leaders, why else call it Cerberus the three headed dog that guards Hades?

Then BAM! They have epic space stations, a logo, recruit directly out of the Alliance, and can build massive super advanced starships....and bring people back from the dead! They have a leader and it's not a general. And they're based around cells instead of a chain of command. And Martin Sheen delivers the best performance in a game full of great voice performances.

And now apparently we're fighting the guy, the guy who can bring people back from the dead and has an unlimited budget. The guy who'd be a perfect ally against the coming unstoppable force that's already attacked Earth.

[CroGamer002]

Admoniter wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
I am sorry but a Man and his company spends 4 Billion credits to bring back Shepard and give him a new Ship and now after ME 2 he is back to be a evil bastard . I am not buying it at all . If he was after Shepard he would have never brought him back to start with . Bioware is making Cerberus the fall guys because the reaper story is stupid and has a bunch of dumb crap in it . So they need a enemy that will make ME 3 not look so f**king stupid .  

Not true Cerberus' character has been all over the board since day one. I mean...

ME1 Cerberus = An agency so incompetent that they have earned the Umbrella Corp. seal of approval.

ME2 Cerberus = We don't play by the rules but we are the only ones trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers

Book Cerberus = That + we really don't like aliens, what a bunch of savages.

ME3 = Hurr Durr I am evul for no aparant raisin...

OMG Fry is the lead writer for ME3.

You're saying that killing colonists and marines for experiments, admirals trying to stop them, experiments on kids like Jack, making Paul Greyson husk, torturing David in Overlord, everything that Kei Leng did is NOT evil to you?!

Also Cerberus was ALWAYS incompetent.
Did you forget the failures of Overlord and Jack? Hell even a Lazarus Project was almost a failure.

[ExtremeOne]

Mesina2 wrote...

Admoniter wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
I am sorry but a Man and his company spends 4 Billion credits to bring back Shepard and give him a new Ship and now after ME 2 he is back to be a evil bastard . I am not buying it at all . If he was after Shepard he would have never brought him back to start with . Bioware is making Cerberus the fall guys because the reaper story is stupid and has a bunch of dumb crap in it . So they need a enemy that will make ME 3 not look so f**king stupid .  

Not true Cerberus' character has been all over the board since day one. I mean...

ME1 Cerberus = An agency so incompetent that they have earned the Umbrella Corp. seal of approval.

ME2 Cerberus = We don't play by the rules but we are the only ones trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers

Book Cerberus = That + we really don't like aliens, what a bunch of savages.

ME3 = Hurr Durr I am evul for no aparant raisin...

OMG Fry is the lead writer for ME3.

You're saying that killing colonists and marines for experiments, admirals trying to stop them, experiments on kids like Jack, making Paul Greyson husk, torturing David in Overlord, everything that Kei Leng did is NOT evil to you?!

Also Cerberus was ALWAYS incompetent.
Did you forget the failures of Overlord and Jack? Hell even a Lazarus Project was almost a failure.

   



I am sorry but Bioware is retconing Cerberus and its bull sh*t and someone needs to call them out for the sorry ass story telling they are doing . Cerberus brought Shepard back and now you tell me they want him dead . That makes no sense at all. what is worse they refuse to discuss at all . Its becoming clear why they turned Cerberus against Shepard. They have no reason for it so they are going to hide it . 

[Big stupid jellyfish]

ExtremeOne wrote...
I am sorry but Bioware is retconing Cerberus and its bull sh*t and someone needs to call them out for the sorry ass story telling they are doing . Cerberus brought Shepard back and now you tell me they want him dead .

ExtremeOne wrote...
Cerberus brought Shepard back
and now you tell me they want him dead .

That's not a retcon, that's a plot twist.

Several forumites explained the difference between the two for you in the other thread. Sad to see you've skipped their posts or didn't pay attention to them.

[Foolsfolly]

Hell even a Lazarus Project was almost a failure.

Total failure if you blow up the Collector Base, turn Miranda against him, and fly off into the sunset with an unshackled AI.

....only for the bleeding Alliance to tear my ship up again!

[CroGamer002]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Hell even a Lazarus Project was almost a failure.

Total failure if you blow up the Collector Base, turn Miranda against him, and fly off into the sunset with an unshackled AI.

....only for the bleeding Alliance to tear my ship up again!

Again?

[Foolsfolly]

Well...they didn't do it the first time....but now I have to get a new bleeding ship! Think there's secretive organizations just tossing around hundreds of thousands of dollars to build super advanced warships under every rock in the universe?

Plus I need a crew again!

[bald man in a boat]

Time to find yourself a new hobby Extreme. Mass Effect is clearly too stressful for you. Try Zoloft or yoga, maybe log off for a while and relax. Do you have to type standing up because of all that butt hurt?

Seriously, the tiny violin player that's been providing the sad music to your every post has just filed a grievance with his union due to long hours and no breaks. It's a game, ease up on the poor waaa-mbulance drivers already.

[Admoniter]

Mesina2 wrote...
You're saying that killing colonists and marines for experiments, admirals trying to stop them, experiments on kids like Jack, making Paul Greyson husk, torturing David in Overlord, everything that Kei Leng did is NOT evil to you?!

Also Cerberus was ALWAYS incompetent.
Did you forget the failures of Overlord and Jack? Hell even a Lazarus Project was almost a failure.

Maybe I phrased it wrong but what I meant is that before they atleast weren't so blatantly evil as to chase after you for whatever reason after giving you a top of the line ship and bringing you back from the dead. I mean ME2 tried to portray them as the guys that crossed the lines to get the job done (don't get me wrong they had long ago crossed the moral event horizon), although you are correct I was neglecting Overlord. This isn't even regular Cerberus incompetence just  arbitrary stupidity for the sake of having someone who isn't the antogonists forces to fight, But the point I was trying to make is that they are suddenly after Shep seems like something that was decided based on all the hate Cerberus got around here. Don't get me wrong I think they are evil, but I didn't need them to go all "We are directly in your way now so you must defeat us," I already wanted to flay every member of Cerberus alive with several exceptions. I didn't need to be pandered to with them convienantly deciding to provoke me I already have my reasons for wanting Cerberus gone, nothing is going to change that. It just seems way beyond regular Cerberus incompetence that they would be gunning for the galaxies only potential saviour for whatever reason. But like I said it just seems so odd that they would go from regular Cerberus to who at the end of the day wants to ensure that humans are still around to be superior to every other species out there, and they somehow decided going after Shepard was the best way to accomplish this.

Modifié par Admoniter, 22 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[ExtremeOne]

bald man in a boat wrote...

Time to find yourself a new hobby Extreme. Mass Effect is clearly too stressful for you. Try Zoloft or yoga, maybe log off for a while and relax. Do you have to type standing up because of all that butt hurt?

Seriously, the tiny violin player that's been providing the sad music to your every post has just filed a grievance with his union due to long hours and no breaks. It's a game, ease up on the poor waaa-mbulance drivers already.

  






Its not stressful at all . I deal with enough of that in My own  life with other issues . This is fun and relaxing for me to discuss games and its stories . Oh if this is a twist its a stupid one because it makes the whole ME 2 story seem pointless . we will see how it all comes together if it makes sense then I will understand but if its garbage they will get called out on it after I play the game . 

[HealthyGiraffe]

Anyone who is criticising Bioware over "THERE IS NO LOGICAL REASON FOR CERBERUS ATTACKING SHEPARD" is a ****ing idiot. There, I said it.

We know nothing right now. We don't know why, when, how, what or who within Cerberus is attacking Shepard. Shut your mouth until the damn game comes out and we learn more. For ****s sake, you people are so infuriatingly stupid it's frustrating. This is exactly why the video game industry gets a bad name. We sound like a pack of idiotic cry babies.

When the game comes out and we can truly examine Cerberus' actions; THEN you can criticise.

You are well within your rights to criticise faulty writing and bad plot devices. However, you have no right to criticise a plot you have no clue about, nor a plot devices you don't have the slightest idea about.

Shut up.

[didymos1120]

Foolsfolly wrote...

....only for the bleeding Alliance to tear my ship up again!

Well, to be fair, it was kinda @#$ed up anyway.  Even with all the upgrades installed.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 avril 2011 - 09:24 .

[CroGamer002]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Well...they didn't do it the first time....but now I have to get a new bleeding ship! Think there's secretive organizations just tossing around hundreds of thousands of dollars to build super advanced warships under every rock in the universe?

Plus I need a crew again!

They'll only upgrade it.
SR2 will stay.

[Foolsfolly]

didymos1120 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

....only for the bleeding Alliance to tear my ship up again!

Well, to be fair, it was kinda @#$ed up anyway.  Even with all the upgrades installed.

....it took me a second to understand this post. I guess for canon purposes the Normandy SR-2 is a mess during Arrival and Shadow Broker.

[Bad King]

Maybe he's simply trying to slow Shepard down so that the reapers have more time to wipe out civilisations. The weaker everyone else gets, the stronger Cerberus will get.

[jbadm04]

I still dont get it why someone could symphatize with Cerberus. "We do realy bad experiments on living humans just becaue we want to improve humanity". Can you realy believe the crap with the "rogue" cells? TIM is the one who recruits such persons, TIM is the one saying "if you dont get me results in 2 weeks Im going to shut down the project" actualy turning all scientist into J. Mengele like idiots. TIM(Cerberus) is the one in charge, he HAVE to know what his people are doing, he is responsible in any way for all his people, the good AND the bad ones. Im not sure what worries me more, but having people around who defend such an attitude got a real problem. Face it, Cerberus is a villain from the very start of the ME franchise. Why people keep speculating about is way beyond me.

Modifié par jbadm04, 22 avril 2011 - 10:55 .

[SalsaDMA]

I don't think they will 'villanize' TIM.

But if Shepard would 'stumbleupon' a 'benign' faction of reapers that wants to put an end to the cycles that could do it. TIM, not about to trust any reapers, will then mark Shepard as a liability for the safety of human existance once it becomes clear Shepard is actively working with Reapers.

It would fit the leak of them claiming a 'surprising turning point' or something in the games story.

[AquamanOS]

Yeah, Illusive has always been borderline villianous. In case you didn't notice, he wanted the Collector tech and nothing else. Just about every time he talks to Shepard about the mission he goes off about what amazing discoveries they'd find as the first humans to navigate the relay, at which point a confused Shepard reminds him they're going in to destroy it and Illusive backtracks with the equivalent of "oh yeah, of course."

And it ends in two ways. If he gets the base, he basically implies in no small words that he doesn't really need Shepard anymore, and if he doesn't then he's pissed at him. And either way no matter what you pick Shepard basically tells him he's doing things his way from then on. So it basically is impossible to end ME2 by saying "Yes sir! Let's let humanity dominate!" It's always with you no long working directly under him.

So in effect, if you weren't at least remotely prepared for this possibility and thought Shep and Cerberus were going to be great pals forever you weren't paying very close attention. You can't make Shepard become a total Cerberus devotee in ME2.

[Randy1012]

No need to villanize someone who's already a villain.