244 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

jbadm04 wrote...

I still dont get it why someone could symphatize with Cerberus. "We do realy bad experiments on living humans just becaue we want to improve humanity". Can you realy believe the crap with the "rogue" cells? TIM is the one who recruits such persons, TIM is the one saying "if you dont get me results in 2 weeks Im going to shut down the project" actualy turning all scientist into J. Mengele like idiots. TIM(Cerberus) is the one in charge, he HAVE to know what his people are doing, he is responsible in any way for all his people, the good AND the bad ones. Im not sure what worries me more, but having people around who defend such an attitude got a real problem. Face it, Cerberus is a villain from the very start of the ME franchise. Why people keep speculating about is way beyond me.

  








I guess you can not understand someone being a fan of the so called bad guys .  Cerberus is not evil in My eyes . They are ones who get things done no matter what it takes and no matter who gets in the way .   

[Masterchef601]

Whoah, so many people defending Cerberus like they were a real organisation.

Bioware created Cerberus as villains. In Mass Effect 2 we had to work with villains; try to do good in spite of that (paragon) or embrace it and be a douche (renegade). In Mass Effect 2 we get a lot of reminders that Cerberus are the bad guys (even if they're not the Big Bad). For one TIM always tries to distance himself from the bad things that Cerberus has done, to keep Sheperd as an ally. Also, nearly all of the choices to help Cerberus are Renegade options. We get constant reminders by other characters that Cerberus are full of dodgy geezers, and as asserted by TIM after the suicide mission, he cares more about human Dominance that anything else. The Reapers aren't his main concern - he wants humans to be the dominant species in the galaxy.

Now, we know he has some sort of connection to the reapers through the monolith, so the likelihood of him being Saren 2.0 is pretty high. I can imagine the reapers promising him that humans will survive if they bring him Sheperd, or get rid of him. Not because he's dumb (Saren wasn't), but because of indoctrination.

I'm not saying that this will be the case, but it may well be. It could be as simple as Sheperd has run his course: he's no longer useful to Cerberus. He's either given them what they wanted, a crap load of collector tech; or annoyed them to hell by blowing up the base.

[Dave666]

ExtremeOne wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...

I still dont get it why someone could symphatize with Cerberus. "We do realy bad experiments on living humans just becaue we want to improve humanity". Can you realy believe the crap with the "rogue" cells? TIM is the one who recruits such persons, TIM is the one saying "if you dont get me results in 2 weeks Im going to shut down the project" actualy turning all scientist into J. Mengele like idiots. TIM(Cerberus) is the one in charge, he HAVE to know what his people are doing, he is responsible in any way for all his people, the good AND the bad ones. Im not sure what worries me more, but having people around who defend such an attitude got a real problem. Face it, Cerberus is a villain from the very start of the ME franchise. Why people keep speculating about is way beyond me.

  








I guess you can not understand someone being a fan of the so called bad guys .  Cerberus is not evil in My eyes . They are ones who get things done no matter what it takes and no matter who gets in the way .   

Even if that person who gets in the way is Shepard...

[GodWood]

Masterchef601 wrote...
Whoah, so many people defending Cerberus like they were a real organisation.

Bioware created Cerberus as villains. In Mass Effect 2 we had to work with villains; try to do good in spite of that (paragon) or embrace it and be a douche (renegade).

Annd I stopped reading there.

The ME series isn't meant to be completly black and white with clear cut 'goodies' and 'baddies' like some children's show.

The game is designed to have varying shades of gray that make the player actually have to stop and think on whether the decision they're making is truly the most beneficial for everyone.
Yes there is the completly 'evil' villains; the Reapers, but aside from them all the other 'organizations' are shades of gray; the Council, the Alliance and yes even Cerberus.


Oh and renegade =/= douche, actually look at each individual major renegade decision and you'll see they're just as valid and not simply "lollol evulz"

[HealthyGiraffe]

GodWood wrote...

Masterchef601 wrote...
Whoah, so many people defending Cerberus like they were a real organisation.

Bioware created Cerberus as villains. In Mass Effect 2 we had to work with villains; try to do good in spite of that (paragon) or embrace it and be a douche (renegade).

Annd I stopped reading there.

The ME series isn't meant to be completly black and white with clear cut 'goodies' and 'baddies' like some children's show.

The game is designed to have varying shades of gray that make the player actually have to stop and think on whether the decision they're making is truly the most beneficial for everyone.
Yes there is the completly 'evil' villains; the Reapers, but aside from them all the other 'organizations' are shades of gray; the Council, the Alliance and yes even Cerberus.


Oh and renegade =/= douche, actually look at each individual major renegade decision and you'll see they're just as valid and not simply "lollol evulz"

Yeah, but I don't like the way they have to make something "renegade" or "paragon". How is rewriting the Geth "paragon"? 

And I think renegade does = evil in many cases. An example is in Mass Effect 2 when renegade gives you red eyes and seriously damaged skin (something always associated with evil). Renegade also leads to the deaths of people who don't deserve to die. 

I would prefer a system that doesn't always have to give you renegade or paragon points for huge decisions. I'm a fan of the system for smaller interactions, but for vast issues with complicated morality involved Bioware shouldn't stamp "paragon" on it like a labell. 

Just a nitpick! 

[Foolsfolly]

How is rewriting the Geth "paragon"?

It removes the indoctrination of the geth. It allows them to find their own future, which is their only real desire. And it gives the true geth perspective now that they see that they can have different opinions (Legion does not understand or appreciate the idea of individuality).

Destroying the base however doesn't feel very renegade. It just kills X amount of geth while leaving heretic geth in the galaxy. Now if Renegade Shepard had Tali rewrite it to shut down all geth....

[didymos1120]

Foolsfolly wrote...

It removes the indoctrination of the geth.

They weren't indoctrinated.  One, by definition, indoctrination only applies to organics. That's what the technology is for: manipulating organics.  Two, Legion says, on multiple occassions, that they chose to follow Sovereign:

"Every sapient has the right to make their own decisions. The heretics chose a path that prohibits coexistence."

"Not every judgment made by the heretics was as poor as their aiding Sovereign."

"The heretics desired to leave. We understood their reasons. We allowed it. There was peace between us."

"Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 avril 2011 - 12:25 .

[Alex Kershaw]

But TIM brought Shepard back to FIGHT the reapers...

[GodWood]

HealthyGiraffe wrote...
Yeah, but I don't like the way they have to make something "renegade" or "paragon". How is rewriting the Geth "paragon"? 

I'm assuming Bioware went with the logic of "Not Killing the geth = Paragon" but yes this is an example of where not all choices can bend to ME's silly morality system.

And I think renegade does = evil in many cases. An example is in Mass Effect 2 when renegade gives you red eyes and seriously damaged skin (something always associated with evil).

ME2's silly 'renegade scars' do not invalidate the logic behind the renegade decisions nor make them evil.

Renegade also leads to the deaths of people who don't deserve to die. 

Example?

Foolsfolly wrote...

How is rewriting the geth "paragon"?

It removes the indoctrination of the geth.

The heretics were not indoctrinated, they chose to follow the Reapers.

Destroying the base however doesn't feel very renegade. It just kills X amount of geth while leaving heretic geth in the galaxy. Now if Renegade Shepard had Tali rewrite it to shut down all geth....

Destroying the base significantly weakens the Heretic geth and prevents the memories of the heretics from entering the geth collective thus preventing the risk of 'true geth' converting to heretic geth.

[didymos1120]

GodWood wrote...

Destroying the base significantly weakens the Heretic geth and prevents the memories of the heretics from entering the geth collective thus preventing the risk of 'true geth' converting to heretic geth.

Contrariwise, it destroys all their memories of them directly interacting with the Reapers and the knowledge of same gained thereby. This is not too far from the primary rationale for keeping the base.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 avril 2011 - 12:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The leader of a terrorist organization turns out to be evil? Why wasn't I told?

I don't know.

Which terrorist organization are we talking about? 

[ExtremeOne]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

But TIM brought Shepard back to FIGHT the reapers...

  


Yeah and its sad Bioware has turned him evil for no real reason

[GodWood]

didymos1120 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Destroying the base significantly weakens the Heretic geth and prevents the memories of the heretics from entering the geth collective thus preventing the risk of 'true geth' converting to heretic geth.

Contrariwise, it destroys all their memories of them directly interacting with the Reapers and the knowledge of same gained thereby. This is not too far from the primary rationale for keeping the base.

Hmm, I'd never considered that.

[Paragon Gabriel]

@ExtremeOne

link?

Modifié par Gabriel the First, 22 avril 2011 - 12:36 .

[CroGamer002]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

But TIM brought Shepard back to FIGHT the reapers...

  


Yeah and its sad Bioware has turned him evil for no real reason

He was always evil.

[Clover Rider]

Mesina2 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

But TIM brought Shepard back to FIGHT the reapers...

  


Yeah and its sad Bioware has turned him evil for no real reason

He was always evil.

More of a jerk.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tilarta wrote...

Actually, if you ask EDI, she will tell you exactly how much control TIM has over his various projects.
And what she will tell you is that he oversees every single one personally.

Which is kinda unsupported by our presentation of just about every single other cell we ever come across. From Lazarus post-Shepard, to Lazarus pre-Shepard, to Teltin, to Overlord, to what we hear of from Jacob and from Miranda and from Archer.

The biggest thing about Cerberus, from its members, is that it isn't micromanaged, controlled directly, or anything of that sort. It's like EDI makes one claim, and pretty much every demonstration otherwise doesn't fit.

The same with her depiction of the size of the network: short of some very selective interpretation (that she's referring only to the science wing of Cerberus's military/political/scientific arms), 100 agents doesn't really add up to the scale of the organization implied to date. Neither does only a dozen projects at once, when we seem to run across half of them in the two games and yet 'many more projects' are shut down in Retribution, with many more still remaining.

[eternalnightmare13]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Title says it all.

TIM-the archtypical mastermind, extreme in some circumstances, but with pure desires and motives.

The one who brought Shepard brought back from the dead, and lead to his conquest of the Collecters.

And in ME3 he will be your sworn enemy.


For some time I wondered how TIM could take such a sharp turn. If you blew up the Collector base, pieces are understandable, but the details just don't line up. Why would TIM try to kill that which he spend so much to recreate? To destroy what he had so much faith in? If you kept the base, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Then the idea came up that Shepard will be Saren 2.0 in ME3- that he will negotiate and fight for the reapers, even if only in the very end, to ensure some limited survival of the human race or his loved ones. However, this isn't cliche enough for the ME universe.

So-the idea hit me-TIM will be Saren 2.0. While not a soldier, he certainly has the resources to help toss those damn turians into the fire of reapage while ensuring the survival of the human race-his true goal and aim. Sheperd, outraged with TIM's lack of ethics (paragon) and disrespect for Sheperd's crew (renegadish) , will himself declare TIM as his enemy, after turning down TIM's offer to join him.

Thoughts/comments?

Decent idea, but  I don't think TIM is dellusional enough to think that if he throws the Reapers a bone by screwing over the other races in the galaxy that the Reapers' will leave him and Cerebus alone.  He'd just be postponing the inevtiable annihalation by the Reapers.

My own speculation is that it could involve something with Prothean artifacts/info.  Perhaps the Protheans had a theory on how to defeat the Reapers, but never got around to putting it into practice due to lack of time and generally getting their asses whooped by the Reapers. It's already been mentioned that Mars will be one planet you go to in ME3 and others.  I could see part of the plot being a search for this info and some other key parts scattered around the galaxy.  

In LotSB there's reference to the fact that the SB was researching info about the Reapers - he was aware of the threat.  With Liara as the SB and her numerous years of expertise in the Protheans it would make sense for Shepard to learn about this, and to go after it.

As far as TIM goes perhaps he doesn't trust Shep after the trial, I wouldn't blame him really, or maybe he makes Shep an offer but you refuse (seems weak and lack of choice IMO but something BW maybe pull out of their collective ass).  Both TIM and Shep are after the same thing - Prothean knowledge/artifacts.  TIM sends his goon squad off to kill Shep before he gets the Prothean goodies first.  TIM of course wants to use the Prothean gadget for his own purposes beyond the Reapers.

TIM is practically on par with the SB so getting info about the Prothean tech/knowledge wouldn't be impossible for him.  

I think that makes more sense then 'TIM mad cause Alliance got his ship! TIM angry! TIM bad! GRrrrr!' I see floating around here.

[Almostfaceman]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Title says it all.

TIM-the archtypical mastermind, extreme in some circumstances, but with pure desires and motives.

The one who brought Shepard brought back from the dead, and lead to his conquest of the Collecters.

And in ME3 he will be your sworn enemy.


For some time I wondered how TIM could take such a sharp turn. If you blew up the Collector base, pieces are understandable, but the details just don't line up. Why would TIM try to kill that which he spend so much to recreate? To destroy what he had so much faith in? If you kept the base, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Then the idea came up that Shepard will be Saren 2.0 in ME3- that he will negotiate and fight for the reapers, even if only in the very end, to ensure some limited survival of the human race or his loved ones. However, this isn't cliche enough for the ME universe.

So-the idea hit me-TIM will be Saren 2.0. While not a soldier, he certainly has the resources to help toss those damn turians into the fire of reapage while ensuring the survival of the human race-his true goal and aim. Sheperd, outraged with TIM's lack of ethics (paragon) and disrespect for Sheperd's crew (renegadish) , will himself declare TIM as his enemy, after turning down TIM's offer to join him.

Thoughts/comments?

Decent idea, but  I don't think TIM is dellusional enough to think that if he throws the Reapers a bone by screwing over the other races in the galaxy that the Reapers' will leave him and Cerebus alone.  He'd just be postponing the inevtiable annihalation by the Reapers.

My own speculation is that it could involve something with Prothean artifacts/info.  Perhaps the Protheans had a theory on how to defeat the Reapers, but never got around to putting it into practice due to lack of time and generally getting their asses whooped by the Reapers. It's already been mentioned that Mars will be one planet you go to in ME3 and others.  I could see part of the plot being a search for this info and some other key parts scattered around the galaxy.  

In LotSB there's reference to the fact that the SB was researching info about the Reapers - he was aware of the threat.  With Liara as the SB and her numerous years of expertise in the Protheans it would make sense for Shepard to learn about this, and to go after it.

As far as TIM goes perhaps he doesn't trust Shep after the trial, I wouldn't blame him really, or maybe he makes Shep an offer but you refuse (seems weak and lack of choice IMO but something BW maybe pull out of their collective ass).  Both TIM and Shep are after the same thing - Prothean knowledge/artifacts.  TIM sends his goon squad off to kill Shep before he gets the Prothean goodies first.  TIM of course wants to use the Prothean gadget for his own purposes beyond the Reapers.

TIM is practically on par with the SB so getting info about the Prothean tech/knowledge wouldn't be impossible for him.  

I think that makes more sense then 'TIM mad cause Alliance got his ship! TIM angry! TIM bad! GRrrrr!' I see floating around here.

Makes sense to me, follows my logic that Jack Harper is a wildcard.  Doesn't play nice with others.  Wants to be in charge.  Likes to snicker evilly behind people's backs whilst hidden in his Secret Sanctum.

Jack wants things done his way.  He finds a Derelict Reaper.  Does he show it to the Council? No. The Alliance? No. He finds useful Reaper tech from Sovereign's remains. Does he share it? No.  Shepard tells him to bring in the Alliance about what's going on, on Horizon. The extra help probably could have saved more lives so that half the colony doesn't disappear. But no, Jack has to have it his way. No Alliance help.

The dude is interested in defeating the Reapers, but that's not enough.  He doesn't go about it in any way but his way. That's a problem.

[Benji1306]

i've figured, that since Shepard is the only one who can defeat the reapers, Tim wants him gone for when he builds his own reaper fleet. IF you decided to keep the base that is. If not, then i don't know.

I know... it's far out there, but who knows

Modifié par Benji1306, 22 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[eternalnightmare13]

Mesina2 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

But TIM brought Shepard back to FIGHT the reapers...

  


Yeah and its sad Bioware has turned him evil for no real reason

He was always evil.

Nah, more like unethical and willing to ignore/push safety protocols.  High risk/high reward.  

[M8DMAN]

I never trusted Tim. Hell even Martian Sheen doesn't even trust the guy. That says a lot! 

Modifié par M8DMAN, 22 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[Markinator_123]

M8DMAN wrote...

I never trusted Tim. Hell even Martian Sheen doesn't even trust the guy. That says a lot! 

That is why you blow up the base like I did after finding out that Cerberus are enemies in ME3. I hated blowing up knowledge but it is better to screw over Cerberus before they screw you over.

[Gongon11]

maybe illusive man was always agaisnt shep, maybe he brought him back because he knew he was the only one that could get to the collector base alive etc, and hoping he keeps the collector base so TIM can use it for his own needs with shep dying so he has no need to worry about him, but if he survives/destroys base then TIM will of course want to get rid of you, seems like all TIM is really interested in is Reaper tech

[Markinator_123]

Gongon11 wrote...

maybe illusive man was always agaisnt shep, maybe he brought him back because he knew he was the only one that could get to the collector base alive etc, and hoping he keeps the collector base so TIM can use it for his own needs with shep dying so he has no need to worry about him, but if he survives/destroys base then TIM will of course want to get rid of you, seems like all TIM is really interested in is Reaper tech

Did you ever the look on the Illusive man's face if Shepard died and kept the base? TIM's evil smile is more scary than his smile in the regular renegade ending.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 22 avril 2011 - 08:19 .