244 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Who's to say that in ME3 you won't find that Cerberus is up to no good and you need to put a stop to whatever they are trying to do?

If all TIM wanted was the base, wouldn't he spend more time convincing Shepard that the base needs to be kept? Say something about it before he goes to that mission? And now he wants to kill Shepard, because - why? Because he doesn't need him? If not need him anymore, why bother with him at all? Does TIM have unlimited resources to waste or what? It's very inconsistent of him. No one spends that much money without hoping that it might pay back, somehow. Without intending to gain something very, very valuable at the end - something that would cover all the expenses. Shepard's corpse is really not that valuable.

People are wondering at Cerberus' motivation because it doesn't make sense, economically. And because we still don't know what Cerberus really wants.

TIM was actually counting on the base being destroyed up until the final moments when EDI sent him the hacked schematics showing that it could be preserved intact.

This whole Cerberus turning on Shepard is so arbitary that it's appalling. Even if the CB is destroyed there was an impication of further cooperation; Shepard has the dialogue option "You're on MY team now" and then there's TIM saying "DON"T TURN YOUR BACK ON ME!!!".

There's your answer then.  The Incompetent Man doesn't want to be Shepard's number two, he wants to be in charge himself.  Time to eliminate Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

Never mind that that explanation is rather countered by Retribution.

[MajesticJazz]

The direction of Cerberus has to be the BIGGEST and most OBVIOUS videogame retcons of all time.

Whether you like Cerberus or not, you cannot deny the fact that Bioware never really knew what they wanted to do with Cerberus. They saw the organization as a plot point that they can use in the games but never fully gave them a proper purpose.

In ME1 they were an Alliance Black-Ops group that went rogue. They were essentially a military in ME1. Now in ME2 they are a group that has NOTHING to do with the Alliance as they are ran by a galactic Billionaire. They have different factions such as military, political and science. Supposendly what we encountered in ME1 as their military division but that still doesn't explain anything about them being part of the Alliance but then breaking apart.

[DarthSliver]

I feel this conversation is going to become redundant and by the time ME3 actually does come out and we find what the real reason is we wont wanna talk about it. ExtremeOne is over looking things and cant see her points only make ME2 look bad. They forced us to work with Cerberus in ME2, were you one that complained about that when details of ME2 were leaking too. I can only assume the way your arguing ExtremeOne you problay were one against working with Cerberus before ME2 was actually released.
You know I dont mine we are against Cerberus, there was always that bad vibe from them. But I hope they make it make sense because you get this vibe at the end that TIM wouldnt Jeopardize being able to stop the Reapers. Like many have said he cant keep Cerberus and humanity intact if the Reapers destroys all Civilization again.

[Seboist]

MajesticJazz wrote...

The direction of Cerberus has to be the BIGGEST and most OBVIOUS videogame retcons of all time.

Whether you like Cerberus or not, you cannot deny the fact that Bioware never really knew what they wanted to do with Cerberus. They saw the organization as a plot point that they can use in the games but never fully gave them a proper purpose.

In ME1 they were an Alliance Black-Ops group that went rogue. They were essentially a military in ME1. Now in ME2 they are a group that has NOTHING to do with the Alliance as they are ran by a galactic Billionaire. They have different factions such as military, political and science. Supposendly what we encountered in ME1 as their military division but that still doesn't explain anything about them being part of the Alliance but then breaking apart.

Exactly right and depending on how you view things Cerberus was supposed to have been destroyed in ME1. If you complete the "Hades Dogs" mission and then go to the one with Corporal Toombs, he says someone destroyed them,meaning the whole organization.

Freaking ridicoulous that Cerberus goes from "Alliance black op gone rogue" to a James Bond "Spectre" organization and now the ME3 equivalent of the Blue Suns/Eclipse/Blood Pack.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Cerberus antagonism will only be a retcon once we learn what Cerberus's actual reasons are. There remain a number of plausible explanations, and even more potential interim developments, that could explain Cerberus opposition without any such re-writing of established lore.

[Dave666]

Seboist wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

The direction of Cerberus has to be the BIGGEST and most OBVIOUS videogame retcons of all time.

Whether you like Cerberus or not, you cannot deny the fact that Bioware never really knew what they wanted to do with Cerberus. They saw the organization as a plot point that they can use in the games but never fully gave them a proper purpose.

In ME1 they were an Alliance Black-Ops group that went rogue. They were essentially a military in ME1. Now in ME2 they are a group that has NOTHING to do with the Alliance as they are ran by a galactic Billionaire. They have different factions such as military, political and science. Supposendly what we encountered in ME1 as their military division but that still doesn't explain anything about them being part of the Alliance but then breaking apart.

Exactly right and depending on how you view things Cerberus was supposed to have been destroyed in ME1. If you complete the "Hades Dogs" mission and then go to the one with Corporal Toombs, he says someone destroyed them,meaning the whole organization.

Freaking ridicoulous that Cerberus goes from "Alliance black op gone rogue" to a James Bond "Spectre" organization and now the ME3 equivalent of the Blue Suns/Eclipse/Blood Pack.

No more ridiculous than the lengths that Bioware had to go to in order for us to be able to palate working with Cerberus.

Bioware: You know that nasty organization you met in ME:1, Cerberus?

Fans: Yeah...

Bioware:  What would it take for you to be ok with working with them?

Fans: Honestly?  Nothing short of them resurrecting Shepard would do.

Bioware:  Resurrecting you say...

Fans:  That was a joke!

Even that wasn't enough so they railroaded us.

Why are we working for Cerberus?

Because the Council won't help us.

Why won't the Council help us?

Because we're working for Cerberus.

Wait...what?!  Thats a completely circular argument!

Ok, fine, I'll use the dialog option to tell The Incompetent Man where to go then I'll work for the Council...

Hang on!  Where's the option!

Modifié par Dave666, 23 avril 2011 - 11:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The Council wasn't going to help the colonies regardless of Cerberus helping Cerberus. Terminus system claptrap, and all that.

The Alliance's hesitation/sloth was always independent of Cerberus, and so was the Council's.

[Dave666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Council wasn't going to help the colonies regardless of Cerberus helping Cerberus. Terminus system claptrap, and all that.

The Alliance's hesitation/sloth was always independent of Cerberus, and so was the Council's.

Thats odd, I seem to remember meeting a Council Spectre in Illium (which is in the Terminus Systems) and meeting Kaidan on Horizon where he was helping install a planetary defence system.  Could the Alliance and Council have done more? Certainly, no question about it, but they were doing something.  Had the Alliance for example quickly rushed several planetary defence systems out to each colony in the Terminus Systems (quietly, but fast) then less colonies would have been abducted thats for sure.  The Council has quite a few Spectres that they could have sent to investigate and intervene as they saw fit (they might have done just that for all we know, perhaps Specters actually saved a few colonies, but we didn't hear about it in the game).

[Apocalypse89]

I see a few logical reasons for Cerberus to turn against Shepard in the middle of a Reaper invasion:

1. For whatever reason, Cerberus sees Shepard's survival as aiding the Reapers. Maybe they see Shepard's plan to stop the Reapers as fatally flawed. Maybe Shepard sees their own plan as a threat and tries to stop it, and they're simply defending themselves. Maybe Shepard is secretly indoctrinated and playing into the Reapers hands, and Cerberus knows this. Maybe Cerberus want his body to negotiate with the Reapers. Maybe it's some mix of everything I mentioned, or something completely different. In any case, they see Shepard as a threat to humanity's survival and so it's perfectly natural that they would try to eliminate him.

2. Cerberus decides to ally with the Reapers. Sounds crazy, but think about it: Cerberus' objective is the survival and dominance of humanity at all costs. And what ensures humanity's survival and dominance more than being turned into an immortal ultra-powerful sentient creature and helping wipe out all other organic life? TIM was all for mercilessly fighting the Reapers and their allies...up until Shepard infiltrated the Collector Base and found out what they were doing with the colonists. Suddenly, he was adamant about saving the base and preserving its technology. Maybe he was suddenly conflicted about whether he really wanted to destroy the Reapers?

In any case, I think it's silly to say if this twist is "good" or "bad" until Bioware gives a bit more info about what's going on.  We know nothing beyond  a single line.

[Dave of Canada]

*reads quite a few posts of anti-Cerberus posters*

I hate it when people try to make things black and white.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 avril 2011 - 11:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave666 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Council wasn't going to help the colonies regardless of Cerberus helping Cerberus. Terminus system claptrap, and all that.

The Alliance's hesitation/sloth was always independent of Cerberus, and so was the Council's.

Thats odd, I seem to remember meeting a Council Spectre in Illium (which is in the Terminus Systems)

Illium is a border-colony. It's not Council space in the same sense that Noveria isn't Council space, which is to say that it's nodnotwinkwink 'not part of the Council system', except in so much that the Council's top agents have authority, the planet is inhabited almost entirely by Council races, and the entire colony is considered distintly Asari space, the territory of one of the four Council members.

Your memory may be a bit fuzzy if you've forgotten some important distinctions.

and meeting Kaidan on Horizon where he was helping install a planetary defence system.

Which, all things considered, isn't a significant problem at all. That isn't even an Alliance presence: that's the Alliance sending a gift, and a person to help install it.

Now, unless you've invented a position in which the Council or its members can't send gifts to anyone in Terminus space...

 Could the Alliance and Council have done more? Certainly, no question about it, but they were doing something.  Had the Alliance for example quickly rushed several planetary defence systems out to each colony in the Terminus Systems (quietly, but fast) then less colonies would have been abducted thats for sure.  The Council has quite a few Spectres that they could have sent to investigate and intervene as they saw fit (they might have done just that for all we know, perhaps Specters actually saved a few colonies, but we didn't hear about it in the game).

It really depends what Council you're talking about.

A Renegade Council does start a direct investigation, mobilizes the Council fleets to assist, and does so sooner than the Paragon Council.

The Paragon Council spends a number of news reports disclaiming any and all role in helping the Alliance respond, and the extent of their involvement is to ask the STG to investigate... after the problem has already been identified and the answer handed to them on a silver platter. It's the Collectors, with seeker swarms, in the Human colonies. Thank you, Virmire Survivor and the Alliance.


If you're inventing Spectre interventions and rescued colonies to justify the Council, you have an incredibly weak standard of Council support.

[VioletSparks]

"what the OP said"

Edit: and this

Dave666 wrote...

No more ridiculous than the lengths that Bioware had to go to in order for us to be able to palate working with Cerberus.

Bioware: You know that nasty organization you met in ME:1, Cerberus?

Fans: Yeah...

Bioware:  What would it take for you to be ok with working with them?

Fans: Honestly?  Nothing short of them resurrecting Shepard would do.

Bioware:  Resurrecting you say...

Fans:  That was a joke!

Even that wasn't enough so they railroaded us.

Why are we working for Cerberus?

Because the Council won't help us.

Why won't the Council help us?

Because we're working for Cerberus.

Wait...what?!  Thats a completely circular argument!

Ok, fine, I'll use the dialog option to tell The Incompetent Man where to go then I'll work for the Council...

Hang on!  Where's the option!

Modifié par VioletSparks, 24 avril 2011 - 12:11 .

[Dave666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Council wasn't going to help the colonies regardless of Cerberus helping Cerberus. Terminus system claptrap, and all that.

The Alliance's hesitation/sloth was always independent of Cerberus, and so was the Council's.

Thats odd, I seem to remember meeting a Council Spectre in Illium (which is in the Terminus Systems)

Illium is a border-colony. It's not Council space in the same sense that Noveria isn't Council space, which is to say that it's nodnotwinkwink 'not part of the Council system', except in so much that the Council's top agents have authority, the planet is inhabited almost entirely by Council races, and the entire colony is considered distintly Asari space, the territory of one of the four Council members.

Your memory may be a bit fuzzy if you've forgotten some important distinctions.

and meeting Kaidan on Horizon where he was helping install a planetary defence system.

Which, all things considered, isn't a significant problem at all. That isn't even an Alliance presence: that's the Alliance sending a gift, and a person to help install it.

Now, unless you've invented a position in which the Council or its members can't send gifts to anyone in Terminus space...

 Could the Alliance and Council have done more? Certainly, no question about it, but they were doing something.  Had the Alliance for example quickly rushed several planetary defence systems out to each colony in the Terminus Systems (quietly, but fast) then less colonies would have been abducted thats for sure.  The Council has quite a few Spectres that they could have sent to investigate and intervene as they saw fit (they might have done just that for all we know, perhaps Specters actually saved a few colonies, but we didn't hear about it in the game).

It really depends what Council you're talking about.

A Renegade Council does start a direct investigation, mobilizes the Council fleets to assist, and does so sooner than the Paragon Council.

The Paragon Council spends a number of news reports disclaiming any and all role in helping the Alliance respond, and the extent of their involvement is to ask the STG to investigate... after the problem has already been identified and the answer handed to them on a silver platter. It's the Collectors, with seeker swarms, in the Human colonies. Thank you, Virmire Survivor and the Alliance.


If you're inventing Spectre interventions and rescued colonies to justify the Council, you have an incredibly weak standard of Council support.

That last part was speculation, obviously, but you tell me, what could the Council have done in that situation?

[MajesticJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Cerberus antagonism will only be a retcon once we learn what Cerberus's actual reasons are. There remain a number of plausible explanations, and even more potential interim developments, that could explain Cerberus opposition without any such re-writing of established lore.

See that is just what we're talking about because Cerberus has already been retconned.

In ME1 they were essentially part of the Alliance. They were a splinter Black-Ops group that does work for the Alliance that only the top officials know. Many countries/governments has a "black ops" side to them. I wouldn't be surprised if the United States had a black-ops organization within it's military ranks that does work for the Army/country that the government can just turn a blind eye on. Cerberus in ME1 wasn't even human-centric. Yes they were trying to create a human super soldier, but they were never the pro-human zealots that they became in the novels and in ME2. Again, they were just the darkside of the Alliance.

However come Acension and ME2, they are just some big pro-humanity  organization. They are more of a business and less of a military group. They aren't ran by the highest heads of the Alliance like in ME1, but rather a ambitious Billionaire in the Illusive Man. According to ME2 and Acension, Cerberus was never part of the Alliance and went rogue. Instead they were created by the Illusive Man.

If that isn't a retcon to you then I do not know what is.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave666 wrote...

That last part was speculation, obviously, but you tell me, what could the Council have done in that situation?

Besides obvious aggressive investigation of exceptionally worrysome incidents (Colony abductions without signs of violence or bodies should be rather signficant red flags), providing diplomatic support for an affected ally, and otherwise being willing to step on diplomatic toes when an unprovoked war of genocide is laucnhed against you.

[Dean_the_Young]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Cerberus antagonism will only be a retcon once we learn what Cerberus's actual reasons are. There remain a number of plausible explanations, and even more potential interim developments, that could explain Cerberus opposition without any such re-writing of established lore.

See that is just what we're talking about because Cerberus has already been retconned.

In ME1 they were essentially part of the Alliance. They were a splinter Black-Ops group that does work for the Alliance that only the top officials know. Many countries/governments has a "black ops" side to them. I wouldn't be surprised if the United States had a black-ops organization within it's military ranks that does work for the Army/country that the government can just turn a blind eye on. Cerberus in ME1 wasn't even human-centric. Yes they were trying to create a human super soldier, but they were never the pro-human zealots that they became in the novels and in ME2. Again, they were just the darkside of the Alliance.

However come Acension and ME2, they are just some big pro-humanity  organization. They are more of a business and less of a military group. They aren't ran by the highest heads of the Alliance like in ME1, but rather a ambitious Billionaire in the Illusive Man. According to ME2 and Acension, Cerberus was never part of the Alliance and went rogue. Instead they were created by the Illusive Man.

If that isn't a retcon to you then I do not know what is.

You don't know what is.

There's no contradiction between ME1 and ME2 portrayals of Cerberus history. There is addition, in which we understand more about the group, but there isn't mutually-exclusive content. Cerberus can have started as a Black Ops wing of the Alliance AND get a lot of resources from private sources. It can do a lot of nasty operations AND run front organizations for its own purposes. TIM can have always been involved in the organization AND have orchistrated its going rogue from the Alliance like we heard in ME1.

Cerberus in ME1 was so incredibly vague that any fleshing out of it would be pretty much entirely new characterization.

[Volus Warlord]

Ok, the original questions was "How will Shepard and TIM become enemies in ME3?" and not "Is Cerberus a retcon?"

And that still is a very open question: How will Shepard and TIM cut ties in a way that makes sense lorewise?

Paragon goodie two shoes? "You're so immoral I'm going to kill you and all of your followers?" Cmon.

TIM: "Durr Durr Durr I are indoctnated I kill you NOW!"
Equally as ridiculous.

Renegade Shep: " I'm such a ****** I'll kill you just to say I killed you!"
Erm... recurring theme much?

[ExtremeOne]

DarthSliver wrote...

I feel this conversation is going to become redundant and by the time ME3 actually does come out and we find what the real reason is we wont wanna talk about it. ExtremeOne is over looking things and cant see her points only make ME2 look bad. They forced us to work with Cerberus in ME2, were you one that complained about that when details of ME2 were leaking too. I can only assume the way your arguing ExtremeOne you problay were one against working with Cerberus before ME2 was actually released.
You know I dont mine we are against Cerberus, there was always that bad vibe from them. But I hope they make it make sense because you get this vibe at the end that TIM wouldnt Jeopardize being able to stop the Reapers. Like many have said he cant keep Cerberus and humanity intact if the Reapers destroys all Civilization again.

    










Cerberus brought Commander Shepard  back to destroy the collectors and the reapers and save humanity . Oh so because Cerberus was a Alliance Black Ops division that went out on its own makes it bad . Oh please thats silly . In ME 2 They are a pro human group with one goal of protecting humanity and Earth . Now in 3 they are a evil group out to kill Shepard . It makes no sense at all. Oh but we are not suppose to call Bioware out on this .  They had no real purpose for Cerberus at all.  

[ExtremeOne]

mrsph wrote...

RETCOOOOONS.

No. It isn't a retcon.

   



It is a f**king retcon and one that Bioware needs to be called out on .   

[Almostfaceman]

ExtremeOne wrote...

mrsph wrote...

RETCOOOOONS.

No. It isn't a retcon.

   



It is a f**king retcon and one that Bioware needs to be called out on .   

I suggest you say this in other threads like 1000 more times.  That way, they'll Really Be Sorry and they'll send you a personal apology.  Maybe even mail you a man-giraffe-dog thingy.  You should probably also hold your face until it turns blue.  Maybe kick your feet some.  And pout.  Especially pout.  Put on your angry face.  Don't forget to buy their game and play it so you can laugh and kill the VS and Anderson while Bioware spends your money.

[MadCat221]

I don't think Timmay is the one who's ordering the attack. I'm betting Kai Leng has gone rogue and taken a large piece of Cerberus with him.  I'm betting Timmay's faction got severely weakened by Kai's faction splitting off, and Timmay would probably do everything in his power to help you end Kai.

Modifié par MadCat221, 24 avril 2011 - 04:22 .

[Homebound]

there was that one time where he fed my squad to thresher maws...

[khordlambert]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*reads quite a few posts of anti-Cerberus posters*

I hate it when people try to make things black and white.

Normally I'd agree here, but given Cerberus' long LONG history of dog kicking, horrific mad science, racism, Child test subjects, and general incompitance, it's really hard to think otherwise here. The whole "for the good of humanity!" thing starts to lose it's credibility after awhile.