180 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Hadea wrote...
Does a cover absolutely have to connect to the trailer/advertising?  The GTA series have set protaganists, yet they don't feature them on their covers. 

edit: correction

It's generally desirable for anything that uses a character. Even if they don't remember the name, people do tend to remember characters. It's my theory that Bioware are trying to ween people off CC by using fixed character images.

Tommy6860 wrote...

Keep in mind, that game is a JARPG and the Japanese more than most, use female characters a great deal and are known for androgynous male characters as well.

That's true. But games often have different covers for different regions as well.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 23 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Hadea]

It's generally desirable for anything that uses a character. Even if they don't remember the name, people do tend to remember characters.



But if the character's appearance, gender and personality is customizable, does that really matter?  I remember the character I created, not the one on the cover.

[AkiKishi]

Hadea wrote...



It's generally desirable for anything that uses a character. Even if they don't remember the name, people do tend to remember characters.



But if the character's appearance, gender and personality is customizable, does that really matter?  I remember the character I created, not the one on the cover.

It matters in so far that if you are going to advertise with a character then it has to have a fixed appearence. Both ME and DA2 use character based advertising.

If you are questioning whether or not character based advertising is a good approach for the games. That's a whole other thread.

[Hadea]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Hadea wrote...



It's generally desirable for anything that uses a character. Even if they don't remember the name, people do tend to remember characters.



But if the character's appearance, gender and personality is customizable, does that really matter?  I remember the character I created, not the one on the cover.

It matters in so far that if you are going to advertise with a character then it has to have a fixed appearence. Both ME and DA2 use character based advertising.

If you are questioning whether or not character based advertising is a good approach for the games. That's a whole other thread.

Yes, that is my point.  Does Bioware even need to do character based advertising if their characters can vary widely depending upon the player's preference? 

I personally like having the ability to create my own character within the framework of the game itself.  It makes the game more fun.  I guess I'm just the type of player that likes to have it her way whenever she can

[AkiKishi]

Hadea wrote...
Yes, that is my point.  Does Bioware even need to do character based advertising if their characters can vary widely depending upon the player's preference? 

I personally like having the ability to create my own character within the framework of the game itself.  It makes the game more fun.  I guess I'm just the type of player that likes to have it her way whenever she can

I would suggest looking at the various trailers for DA. Sacred Ashes etc. Then comparing to DA2. I did find the DA2 Hawke to be a much stronger presence than the generic Warden. Although I found the Warden trailer to be the one that made me want to be a Grey Warden.



Must say that the version I watched did not have any of that "new ****" stuff might have put me off.

[Dreadstruck]

The Angry One wrote...

Irrelevant really, since in that Deus Ex game you can only play as that guy. Because adding teh girl would be too much work don't you know!
Which is why I won't buy it.

You can't play a lot of games then, can you?

[Damariel]

Avalla'ch wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Irrelevant really, since in that Deus Ex game you can only play as that guy. Because adding teh girl would be too much work don't you know!
Which is why I won't buy it.

You can't play a lot of games then, can you?

Avalla'ch you're surprised? ...cause I'm not.

Modifié par Damariel, 24 avril 2011 - 09:25 .

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

I agree with OP 110% percent, enough with horrid beard men and Dutch male models for that matter!

BobSmith101 wrote...

This one one may prove or disprove the OP's theory.

What I think is better about this one is at first glance you don't notice the glass,then when you zoom in your notice that things are going on inside the shards. It made me want to zoom in. Or if it was on a shelf pick it up and have a closer look.

Irrelevant really, since in that Deus Ex game you can only play as that guy. Because adding teh girl would be too much work don't you know!
Which is why I won't buy it.

Nothing else worth posting except this smiley.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Damariel wrote...

Avalla'ch wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Irrelevant really, since in that Deus Ex game you can only play as that guy. Because adding teh girl would be too much work don't you know!
Which is why I won't buy it.

You can't play a lot of games then, can you?

Avalla'ch you're surprised? ...cause I'm not.

I decided not to play Portal 1 & 2 either. I wanted to buy them, seeing as how they've both gotten amazing reviews and are regarded as cult classics, but then I found out you had to play as a woman! A WOMAN! What were you thinking, Valve?

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 24 avril 2011 - 10:24 .

[Dreadstruck]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Damariel wrote...

Avalla'ch wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Irrelevant really, since in that Deus Ex game you can only play as that guy. Because adding teh girl would be too much work don't you know!
Which is why I won't buy it.

You can't play a lot of games then, can you?

Avalla'ch you're surprised? ...cause I'm not.

I decided not to play Portal 1 & 2 either. I wanted to buy them, seeing as how they've both gotten amazing reviews and are regarded as cult classics, but then I found out you had to play as a woman! A WOMAN! What were you thinking, Valve?

I know rite?

The same thing happened with Tomb Raider! When I realized I was forced to play as a girl, I immediately knew the game was misandrist! Shame on you Core Design studios!

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 24 avril 2011 - 10:49 .

[AkiKishi]

Avalla'ch wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Damariel wrote...

Avalla'ch wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Irrelevant really, since in that Deus Ex game you can only play as that guy. Because adding teh girl would be too much work don't you know!
Which is why I won't buy it.

You can't play a lot of games then, can you?

Avalla'ch you're surprised? ...cause I'm not.

I decided not to play Portal 1 & 2 either. I wanted to buy them, seeing as how they've both gotten amazing reviews and are regarded as cult classics, but then I found out you had to play as a woman! A WOMAN! What were you thinking, Valve?

I know rite?

The same thing happened with Tomb Raider! When I realized I was forced to play as a girl, I immideately knew the game was misandrist! Shame on you Core Design studios!

It's funny some of my favourite games have female protoganists. Maybe being the majority I just don't see it as slight or a big deal.

[Dreadstruck]

BobSmith101 wrote...
It's funny some of my favourite games have female protoganists. Maybe being the majority I just don't see it as slight or a big deal.

Your sarcasm detector must be broken dude.

[AkiKishi]

Avalla'ch wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
It's funny some of my favourite games have female protoganists. Maybe being the majority I just don't see it as slight or a big deal.

Your sarcasm detector must be broken dude.

It went back to Angry Ones orignal about why she would not buy HR. Granted early sunday morning not the best time for sarcasm detection.

[ReinaHW]

The whole 'catering to males only' thing was outdated well over a decade ago. Having male only leads in games shows a lack of imagination and creative thought - wow, man saves world, women litle more than targets/support characters/NPC's, never seen that before, how boring, no thanks.
I already know I won't be buying that Deus Ex game, disappointed that there's no gender choice for the player character, so no thanks, tired of bland male leads.
Not buying LA Noire, Brink and a few others games that are male only leads as well, no interest in them. Tired of male leads and male only leads don't tempt me to buy a game, I prefer to have choice, not be lumped with some male leads I couldn't care less about.

Now if I hadn't known that DA: O, DA2, Mass Effect 1 and 2 and other Bioware games didn't have gender choice, skipped Planescape since it was a male only lead and didn't interest me, then I would have avoided those because I don't want to be bored to tears of 'generio male 5000'.
However if I had seen the covers for DA2 and ME1 and 2 on the shelves without knowing that it had gender choice, since that's not even explained on the back of the box, then I wouldn't have been tempted to buy those games because they show the generic male - Hawke with manly face eating beard, generic shaved hair, steel chin cutter Male Shepard - but no indication that the player can choose the gender of the character they're playing as.

The way marketing has those games displayed it's pretty clear that they prefer to disregard the fact that female gamers as well as any male gamers who prefer to play as a female lead who play Bioware's games actually do exist, instead they want to catch the attention of those who want the same tired generic male lead that is in so many games.

All they have to do when it comes to annoucing a new game is add one simple sentence - "The player will be able to choose the gender of the character they play as - and put on the box art - 'Choose the gender of your character, alter their appearance - and that would prevent the same question about if there's gender choice or not being asked.
Such a simple thing to do, yet it's clear that common sense is ignored when it comes to that simple concept.

Marketing departments for all developers need to grow up and get used to the fact that not everyone wants to play as some bland, dull male lead, that female gamers and male gamers who like to play as a female lead are a reality.
Gaming is in a rut due to the constant catering to males only in terms of bland male only leads, a lack of ideas and imagnation and a refusal to accept that the gaming demographic is changing and has been changing for a fair while now.

Change happens, and in the gaming industry, change is badly needed.

[Loup Blanc]

The answer to the OP question is simple, really... DA2 is selling (relatively) poorly because the word of mouth is DISASTROUS. That's really all there is to it.

[AkiKishi]

ReinaHW wrote...
Marketing departments for all developers need to grow up and get used to the fact that not everyone wants to play as some bland, dull male lead, that female gamers and male gamers who like to play as a female lead are a reality.
Gaming is in a rut due to the constant catering to males only in terms of bland male only leads, a lack of ideas and imagnation and a refusal to accept that the gaming demographic is changing and has been changing for a fair while now.

Change happens, and in the gaming industry, change is badly needed.

I'd be interested to see how many people that is and how many don't care either way. There are plenty of games with female protagonists and vice versa.But if you are doing character based advertising you have to have a character.

[ReinaHW]

DA: O had a blood red dragon on the cover, no character shown, that was a great cover and very eye catching. DA2 has a generic male on the cover, not eye catching, doesn't tempt.
The could have just had the red dragon on the cover and non-detailed character shapes, no bland male, and it would be a much more eye catching cover.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

ReinaHW wrote...

The whole 'catering to males only' thing was outdated well over a decade ago. Having male only leads in games shows a lack of imagination and creative thought - wow, man saves world, women litle more than targets/support characters/NPC's, never seen that before, how boring, no thanks.
I already know I won't be buying that Deus Ex game, disappointed that there's no gender choice for the player character, so no thanks, tired of bland male leads.
Not buying LA Noire, Brink and a few others games that are male only leads as well, no interest in them. Tired of male leads and male only leads don't tempt me to buy a game, I prefer to have choice, not be lumped with some male leads I couldn't care less about.

Now if I hadn't known that DA: O, DA2, Mass Effect 1 and 2 and other Bioware games didn't have gender choice, skipped Planescape since it was a male only lead and didn't interest me, then I would have avoided those because I don't want to be bored to tears of 'generio male 5000'.
However if I had seen the covers for DA2 and ME1 and 2 on the shelves without knowing that it had gender choice, since that's not even explained on the back of the box, then I wouldn't have been tempted to buy those games because they show the generic male - Hawke with manly face eating beard, generic shaved hair, steel chin cutter Male Shepard - but no indication that the player can choose the gender of the character they're playing as.

The way marketing has those games displayed it's pretty clear that they prefer to disregard the fact that female gamers as well as any male gamers who prefer to play as a female lead who play Bioware's games actually do exist, instead they want to catch the attention of those who want the same tired generic male lead that is in so many games.

All they have to do when it comes to annoucing a new game is add one simple sentence - "The player will be able to choose the gender of the character they play as - and put on the box art - 'Choose the gender of your character, alter their appearance - and that would prevent the same question about if there's gender choice or not being asked.
Such a simple thing to do, yet it's clear that common sense is ignored when it comes to that simple concept.

Marketing departments for all developers need to grow up and get used to the fact that not everyone wants to play as some bland, dull male lead, that female gamers and male gamers who like to play as a female lead are a reality.
Gaming is in a rut due to the constant catering to males only in terms of bland male only leads, a lack of ideas and imagnation and a refusal to accept that the gaming demographic is changing and has been changing for a fair while now.

Change happens, and in the gaming industry, change is badly needed.

That was painful to read.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]

No, seriously: my nerve endings could literally feal the harm inflicted. Keep your feminist bullsh*t out of my hobby. I have no desire for feminists -- any feminists -- with an agenda to be accomodated in this medium. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]


Being able to choose your sex in a RPG/BioWare is done with very good reason. Not every genre outside roleplaying games will 'adapt' or 'evolve' to incorporate what is essentially a roleplaying game feature, simply because you *want*.

I have no restrictions whatsoever to say this kind of demographic is completely unwelcome from where I stand, and I hope to God that not a single, even remotely important developer will spend as much as one second specifically thinking about whether to accomodate you. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

[ReinaHW]

Not feminist, that is so dull. Gaming needs to progress, the industry needs to grow. The rut it's in due to the catering to males only isn't helping it to get out of the rut, it needs to cater to both male and female alike.
Not every female gamer plays The Sims and Cooking Mama, most quite enjoy a game like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, a COD or a Halo.
And not ever male gamer likes shooters, there are many who enjoy strategy, RPG, puzzle and more.

The way those games are marketed though doesn't reach out to the full demographic of shared male and female gamers alike, it tends to be either male only, female only - when it comes to games like Cooking Mama.
A game with a marketing plan than reaches out to both male and female gamers alike is more likely to make gamers curious on the nature of the game instead of some outdated gender stereotype method that marketing departments use.

A game with gender choice, but using a non-descriptive cover art - like DA: O did - is more attractive when you see it on the shelves. Now add that with a sentence on the back that says - Players can choose the gender of the character, create them to their liking - and other aspects would be quite likely to fully make the player very curius and more willing to buy the game than with just some bland male lead on the cover and no information on the back saying that the player can choose and create since that kind of cover doesn't really trigger the curiousity, the first thing that comes to mind is 'Oh, another dull lead saving the universe'

If you want the money when it comes to a game, you need to make the buyer curious and very interested, you have to be willing to reach out to both a male and female costumer instead of only one.
Female gamers have the money and are willing to spend, if they have something to spend the game money on and if their curousity is triggered.

[AkiKishi]

ReinaHW wrote...

DA: O had a blood red dragon on the cover, no character shown, that was a great cover and very eye catching. DA2 has a generic male on the cover, not eye catching, doesn't tempt.
The could have just had the red dragon on the cover and non-detailed character shapes, no bland male, and it would be a much more eye catching cover.

DA never really used character advertising. DA2 does. It's not a bland male on the cover it's Hawke. The same one you see on posters and in the TV ads. The character links the different media advertising together.

As I said to someone eariler in the thread as long as you have character based advertising this is going to be the case. You have to pick a character just like FFXIII picked Lightning.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[ReinaHW]

But male Hawke is pretty bland, his beard makes me think of Riker from Star Trek. I half expected him to pose in much the same way.

Even with character advertising, they could have found a way to at least say on the box art for DA2 that the player can choose from the male and female Hawke to play as.
After all not everyone who's bought the game is on these forums and much of the information that came out didn't say much about female Hawke, if anything at all.

I'm hoping with Mass Effect 3 that any advertising, trailers and so on will show those who are new to the series that the game has gender choice, like the previous two, by showing both the female and male Shepard, that it will be made quite clear to avoid the same question being asked on if the game has gender choice.

And that the cover art will, for once, show the female Shepard choice as well.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

ReinaHW wrote...

Not feminist, that is so dull. Gaming needs to progress, the industry needs to grow. The rut it's in due to the catering to males only isn't helping it to get out of the rut, it needs to cater to both male and female alike.
Not every female gamer plays The Sims and Cooking Mama, most quite enjoy a game like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, a COD or a Halo.
And not ever male gamer likes shooters, there are many who enjoy strategy, RPG, puzzle and more.

The way those games are marketed though doesn't reach out to the full demographic of shared male and female gamers alike, it tends to be either male only, female only - when it comes to games like Cooking Mama.
A game with a marketing plan than reaches out to both male and female gamers alike is more likely to make gamers curious on the nature of the game instead of some outdated gender stereotype method that marketing departments use.

A game with gender choice, but using a non-descriptive cover art - like DA: O did - is more attractive when you see it on the shelves. Now add that with a sentence on the back that says - Players can choose the gender of the character, create them to their liking - and other aspects would be quite likely to fully make the player very curius and more willing to buy the game than with just some bland male lead on the cover and no information on the back saying that the player can choose and create since that kind of cover doesn't really trigger the curiousity, the first thing that comes to mind is 'Oh, another dull lead saving the universe'

If you want the money when it comes to a game, you need to make the buyer curious and very interested, you have to be willing to reach out to both a male and female costumer instead of only one.
Female gamers have the money and are willing to spend, if they have something to spend the game money on and if their curousity is triggered.

Yes, being able to choose sounds hypothetically better than being stuck with something from the get go, but this isn't entirely what you said.

Do men get more games marketed towards them? Probably.

The rest of your argument? You seem awfully focused on gender to determine the quality ( or 'blandness' ) of a video game character, and I'm not sure why those two have so much in common? I imagine playing a female lead that saves the world won't inherently make the game more interesting to you, I hope?

Basing your purchases on the gender you want to play must seems awfully restrictive as a buyer.  Why would this even get in your way?

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 24 avril 2011 - 03:37 .

[The Angry One]

Damariel wrote...

Avalla'ch wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Irrelevant really, since in that Deus Ex game you can only play as that guy. Because adding teh girl would be too much work don't you know!
Which is why I won't buy it.

You can't play a lot of games then, can you?

Avalla'ch you're surprised? ...cause I'm not.

Firstly, I was unaware being choosy was a crime.
Secondly, quantity <<< quality.
Thirdly, specifically what will guarantee my non-purchase of a game is when a developer says that they would totally do a female character, but they don't have the time or resources.
If they don't have the time or resources to bother with my gender then I don't have the time or resources to bother with their game.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 avril 2011 - 03:42 .

[ReinaHW]

A female lead saving the day is more interesting because it's so rare when compared to a male lead being the hero, which has been done to death in all forms of the media for avery long time.
Female leads and gender choice in games is, when compared to the number of male only leads in games, pretty rare. It's refreshing to not be lumped with a male only lead, but that's becoming ever rarer than it always has been.

I already explained once before weeks ago why I don't like to play as male leads, I have no interest in going into it again.

[The Angry One]

ReinaHW wrote...

A female lead saving the day is more interesting because it's so rare when compared to a male lead being the hero, which has been done to death in all forms of the media for avery long time.
Female leads and gender choice in games is, when compared to the number of male only leads in games, pretty rare. It's refreshing to not be lumped with a male only lead, but that's becoming ever rarer than it always has been.

I already explained once before weeks ago why I don't like to play as male leads, I have no interest in going into it again.

I suspect the blandness is not only gender, but most game developers seem to think that only a particular brand of male gets to be the hero.
Specifically the 20 to 30 something dark haired white male. Beard optional. I'll just leave this here again.