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Why DA2 is selling very poorly.


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#151
Dreadstruck

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grizzlan wrote...

I think this whole debate is irrelevant, as a "old gamer." I came to that was of thinking by being a new gamer once upon a midnight dreary. Angry one, good luck with your purchase choices. Those choices are the ones that influence the market. I got Da: O knowing that because it was a bioware game that it would have interchangable protagonists. It did not make the main character of gods of wars story any less interesting to me because of lack of gender choice. His story was a sad one because of the life he led. Nor did it make Laura Crofts adventures any less interesting, at least not being lead dog left me with more pleasant scenery to look at. Though for the most part her adventures seemed more shallow story wise. To get back to my point, as long as you enjoy the game. Gender is irrelevant, and to continue to beat this dead horse (while calory burning) is pointless.


I agree. My gender probably betrays my words, but I also don't give rat's ass about the protagonist's sex, be it Male, Female or Tauren.

Stranglehold, Metroid Prime, Tomb Raider, The Longest Journey, Monkey Island... all great games, regardless who is the "main guy".

If I let that influence every single of my choices, I would probably end up as a grouchy douche like my uncle. Duh.:o

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 24 avril 2011 - 04:39 .


#152
The Angry One

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I vote with my money, and I won't give my money to any game that uses the "no resources" argument.
God of War uses no such argument, so I'd buy that.. if I were any good at it. Or liked the concept a lot to begin with.
Mainly I'm into RPGs, and in RPGs I expect choice.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 avril 2011 - 04:42 .


#153
AkiKishi

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The Angry One wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Ties together what? They used an unappealing bearded guy in one trailer.
Newsflash: They did the same with DA:O, only without the beard. The didn't require pasting that guy on the box and elsewhere. It's just not needed.


That guy was a place holder Warden nothing more. He's not in the game. It could be one of the reasons DA2 went for character based advertising.


True, but to me Beard!Hawke is a placeholder Hawke and nothing more.
Also only females get the red eyes. Keke.

Point is DA:O didn't need a posterboy, and sold well. The cover didn't make people jump to conclusions. It, like TES' covers, show a minimalist design that draws you in and makes you investigate.
DAII's cover shows Generic Fantasy Action Hero #132/A ready for action! That appeals to some, sure. But it may alienate others.


He's not a placeholder though he's "Legend" Hake default. That makes him very different from the placeholder Grey Warden. Place holder Warden was not the default the Warden choice.

Maderek wrote...

Regardless of who you played as, the game would still suck.

And I don't understand these Male/Fem Hawke arguments. They're the same goddamn thing, voice acting is even equally good.


It's because Male Hawke is used in the advertising of the game.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 avril 2011 - 04:45 .


#154
The Angry One

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BobSmith101 wrote...

He's not a placeholder though he's "Legend" Hake default. That makes him very different from the placeholder Grey Warden. Place holder Warden was not the default the Warden choice.


There's also a female legend Hawke, so that goes either way.
Also that concept was silly and people are already asking for "skip intro" mods which means that BioWare have just reached the same design quality as... Oblivion.

*cough*

#155
AkiKishi

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The Angry One wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

He's not a placeholder though he's "Legend" Hake default. That makes him very different from the placeholder Grey Warden. Place holder Warden was not the default the Warden choice.


There's also a female legend Hawke, so that goes either way.
Also that concept was silly and people are already asking for "skip intro" mods which means that BioWare have just reached the same design quality as... Oblivion.

*cough*


Male was chosen as the default for the ad campaign. I'm just pointing out the difference between place holder Grey Warden and non placeholder Hawke.

#156
JabbaDaHutt30

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Avalla'ch wrote...

grizzlan wrote...

I think this whole debate is irrelevant, as a "old gamer." I came to that was of thinking by being a new gamer once upon a midnight dreary. Angry one, good luck with your purchase choices. Those choices are the ones that influence the market. I got Da: O knowing that because it was a bioware game that it would have interchangable protagonists. It did not make the main character of gods of wars story any less interesting to me because of lack of gender choice. His story was a sad one because of the life he led. Nor did it make Laura Crofts adventures any less interesting, at least not being lead dog left me with more pleasant scenery to look at. Though for the most part her adventures seemed more shallow story wise. To get back to my point, as long as you enjoy the game. Gender is irrelevant, and to continue to beat this dead horse (while calory burning) is pointless.


I agree. My gender probably betrays my words, but I also don't give rat's ass about the protagonist's sex, be it Male, Female or Tauren.

Stranglehold, Metroid Prime, Tomb Raider, The Longest Journey, Monkey Island... all great games, regardless who is the "main guy".

If I let that influence every single of my choices, I would probably end up as a grouchy douche like my uncle. Duh.:o


Usually it was the writer  that got blamed by someone who didn't like the story. Apparently, that's changed.  :D

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 24 avril 2011 - 04:55 .


#157
grizzlan

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*shakes his head* let the calory burning continue....

#158
ostemanden

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STOP JOKING ABOUT SERIOUS GAMES!

#159
tmp7704

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BobSmith101 wrote...

[Pretty cool might pick up a copy. Any other noticable differences ? 

Female protagonist has very different set of social links (most of them are with the team members rather than 3rd party NPCs) and the ones which repeat can have quite different dynamics and story to them. She has also very different personality, an opposite of the male protagonist in some ways.

It also has battle mode in which you can control actions of each members of the team manually, the same which originally appeared first in Persona 4.

On the downside, since it's PSP game the graphics and such are pretty trimmed down.

Modifié par tmp7704, 24 avril 2011 - 06:20 .


#160
FellowerOfOdin

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Most players are male and while the amount of female players might be higher compared to other games, male players still represent the vast majority of players...and while porn covers normally have females on the DVD covers as they want to appeal to males alone, the attraction factor simply does not work in the case of Dragon Age II.

Female players, get your flamethrowers ready.

First of all, FemHawke has short hair - considering the average male, this is a negative attraction factor. Women with long hair are, in average, considered to be more attractive. It is quite certain that this is because of evolution as long hair usually was an indicator for good health and thus fertility. While nowadays, a lot of women have short haircuts and thus it's more appreciated by men, the average male still prefers long hair.

In a video game, however, you want to have fun by playing a great game with a lot of action (in this case) that is not limited to your right hand and your joystick. It's all about the classic save-the-day gameplay, the feeling of you being a great guy.

FemHawke is not a good way to represent this action. Hawke is a bearded, grim-looking and muscled guy (with a terrible voice actor) who wields that weapon and looks quite badass. He relates to the generic kickass guy and all the male heroes in history / mythology.

When you think of great heroes, you don't think of a woman. How many women are there well-known for heroic deeds? For having fought great battles and led great armies? Zero.

Some might mention Joanne D'Arc but in the end, she decided to go for a coward's death and wasn't well-known for her combat skills either, some documents state that she preferred fighting in the second row and had serious trouble fighting stronger foes...plus she was French. Seriously, no offense, but when you think of success in war...France certainly does not come to my mind.

Anyway, even with her as one sole example, she still faces endless hordes of great male heroes representing badass action and military success. Dragon Age: Rise to Power is heavily focussed on supposed-to-be-stylish JRPG combat...heavy combat focus? Exactly. And if I had to advertise a combat-driven game, I'd rather choose a cover that features combat and action and attracts to most players.

Could you imagine a CoD cover with a female soldier on the front? Just image the reactions.

So...no offense FemHawke players, but Hawke still beats you in being the more charismatic and convenient cover choice.

This being said, FemHawke is a very important character in the Dragon Age series. I mean...when Hawke goes out fighting endless hordes of bandits, templars, bandits, darkspawn and bandits, someone has to stay home and make sandwiches.

#161
Dio Demon

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FellowerOfOdin wrote...

This being said, FemHawke is a very important character in the Dragon Age series. I mean...when Hawke goes out fighting endless hordes of bandits, templars, bandits, darkspawn and bandits, someone has to stay home and make sandwiches.


YOU DID NOT JUST SAY THAT. I'm a guy and I'm offended, perhapsImage IPB I want to stay home and make sandwiches. I'm sad now Image IPB I need a hug.

Modifié par Crazy Eyed One, 25 avril 2011 - 11:44 .


#162
Guest_simfamUP_*

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Brodyaha wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

Perhaps they would have done better with FemHawke. *chuckles*


FemHawke, being kissed by Isabella.


Naked in a hot steamy bath....I'd buy two!

#163
Hadea

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My mage fem-Hawke is terrible at cooking, but she can set people on fire with her mind pretty well. I think she'll just leave it to Anders to stay home and make the sandwiches. That's really all he's good for, anyway

#164
Moraj0224

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Another crutch affecting DA2 sales is the total failure of the distributing companies to meet the expectations of their customers with the "so called" bonus and free items they were suppose to supply. I was burned by best buy and for that I am hesitant towards future purchases as whether or not it was best buy's fault or Bioware/EA for this confusion. With all these stories, the DA2 is plagued with a lot of grief by current owners who share their stories with potential purchasers of a pretty amazing game in itself.

#165
Dragoonlordz

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Hadea wrote...

My mage fem-Hawke is terrible at cooking, but she can set people on fire with her mind pretty well. I think she'll just leave it to Anders to stay home and make the sandwiches. That's really all he's good for, anyway


Given his tendency to blow things up would you really want him staying in the kitchen where a cooker, fridge and microwave is located? Image IPB

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 26 avril 2011 - 02:32 .


#166
Hadea

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hadea wrote...

My mage fem-Hawke is terrible at cooking, but she can set people on fire with her mind pretty well. I think she'll just leave it to Anders to stay home and make the sandwiches. That's really all he's good for, anyway


Given his tendency to blow things up would you really want him staying in the kitchen where a cooker, fridge and microwave is located? Image IPB


Ha! You have a point there!  I can imagine Hawke saying, "Anders, why do you need C4 to cook a steak?"

#167
SirGladiator

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They definitely missed an opportunity to market the game better with more Lady Hawke. The audience for a bland, generic, cookie-cutter male hero is dwindling, as more and more folks learn how much more fun it is to play as a female hero. Certainly DAO benefitted greatly from not being tied down to a generic-male character in the advertising, something that's held the ME series down from being the great success it could and should be. Of course DA2 had more problems than just that, but the fact that many people seriously didnt even know you COULD play as a female in DA2 obviously hurt sales. Certainly DA3 should feature the female main character, whoever she might be, much more prominently, they're gonna need all the help with sales they can get after DA2, and that would go a long way toward getting the massive DAO fan base back.

#168
ReinaHW

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FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Most players are male and while the amount of female players might be higher compared to other games, male players still represent the vast majority of players...and while porn covers normally have females on the DVD covers as they want to appeal to males alone, the attraction factor simply does not work in the case of Dragon Age II.

Female players, get your flamethrowers ready.

First of all, FemHawke has short hair - considering the average male, this is a negative attraction factor. Women with long hair are, in average, considered to be more attractive. It is quite certain that this is because of evolution as long hair usually was an indicator for good health and thus fertility. While nowadays, a lot of women have short haircuts and thus it's more appreciated by men, the average male still prefers long hair.

In a video game, however, you want to have fun by playing a great game with a lot of action (in this case) that is not limited to your right hand and your joystick. It's all about the classic save-the-day gameplay, the feeling of you being a great guy.

FemHawke is not a good way to represent this action. Hawke is a bearded, grim-looking and muscled guy (with a terrible voice actor) who wields that weapon and looks quite badass. He relates to the generic kickass guy and all the male heroes in history / mythology.

When you think of great heroes, you don't think of a woman. How many women are there well-known for heroic deeds? For having fought great battles and led great armies? Zero.

Some might mention Joanne D'Arc but in the end, she decided to go for a coward's death and wasn't well-known for her combat skills either, some documents state that she preferred fighting in the second row and had serious trouble fighting stronger foes...plus she was French. Seriously, no offense, but when you think of success in war...France certainly does not come to my mind.

Anyway, even with her as one sole example, she still faces endless hordes of great male heroes representing badass action and military success. Dragon Age: Rise to Power is heavily focussed on supposed-to-be-stylish JRPG combat...heavy combat focus? Exactly. And if I had to advertise a combat-driven game, I'd rather choose a cover that features combat and action and attracts to most players.

Could you imagine a CoD cover with a female soldier on the front? Just image the reactions.

So...no offense FemHawke players, but Hawke still beats you in being the more charismatic and convenient cover choice.

This being said, FemHawke is a very important character in the Dragon Age series. I mean...when Hawke goes out fighting endless hordes of bandits, templars, bandits, darkspawn and bandits, someone has to stay home and make sandwiches.


As far as I'm concerned, female Hawke, female Shepard and my female Warden, are for me, the canon characters of those games.  They fit the games so much better than a stereotypical bland male lead with a chin that can cut through steel, and a terrible voice actor.

Also Joan of Arc wasn't a coward, she was actually very brave and charismatic, she had very strong convictions and truly believed that God was working through her to bring peace to the land.
The nobles of France and England didn't like that, they were terrified of her, and she was betrayed by the French nobles and set up, the English then caught her and executed her as an example to anyone who dared to do what the nobles, who had started the conflicts in the first place because men in England claimed that the French throne belonged to them and men in France claimed the same thing, so it led to a great of bloodshed, then truce, followed by more bloodshed for over a century.

There's also Bodica, a brutal woman in England who led the people in arms against the invading Romans.  Plus Cleopatra who used her charms, her intellect and her cunning to control a culture.  And Troy who's great beautiful led to war.
Men have fragile egos, they like to be the centre of attention, have all the glory and be the hero, if a woman does something that is usually stereotypical of the male gender a great deal better, the males end up feeling like they're under threat and react to save face by making sure that no woman can do anything that can harm their fragile egos.

Comes from the male upbringing that enforces that males are superiour, when in reality they aren't, they have some advantages, but also disadvantages.  Just like women do, that's why when both sides work together they can do a lot more by combining their stengthens and weaknesses than they can alone.

Neither is superiour and neither is superior, only a misguided, backwards way of gender stereotyping tends to make it seem like everyone must be male, when in fact male and female need to work together due to the nature of our individual spirits.

#169
Elcariel

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ReinaHW wrote...

Also Joan of Arc wasn't a coward, she was actually very brave and charismatic, she had very strong convictions and truly believed that God was working through her to bring peace to the land.
The nobles of France and England didn't like that, they were terrified of her, and she was betrayed by the French nobles and set up, the English then caught her and executed her as an example to anyone who dared to do what the nobles, who had started the conflicts in the first place because men in England claimed that the French throne belonged to them and men in France claimed the same thing, so it led to a great of bloodshed, then truce, followed by more bloodshed for over a century.


It's also worth mentioning...

Joan of Arc's crime, which led to her execution, was to dress as a man and join the army. The reason this was a crime was because *too many women had been doing that*. There were a lot more female warriors in medieval europe than most people today realize.

#170
Special_Agent_Goodwrench

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What kills me about the most posterboy characters, is that the marketing or whomever, picks the blandest, least charismatic dude (coughMasscoughEffect) possible to represent the game. Not only does it make the game unappealing to me at the first glance, If the character in question is the protagonist, but it's also mind boggling. It seems the majority of female protagonists are much better designed than their male counterparts. They have the "It" factor. Something that sparks the interest. Sorry, but the crewcut and 5 o'clock shadow doesn't do it for me, man. As a matter of fact, the whole "female on cover won't sell" business is a load of bull. As long as the the cover is visually appealing it doesn't matter what gender is shown.  It doesn't even need to be a main character or a character to be sucessful.

Killzone got it right. All promo material and cover art features the Helghast, the iconic antagonists of the franchise. Dragon Age got the blood dragon motif which works exceptionally well. DA needs no preset hero(ine) to represent each game of the franchise. Neither Hawke preset is a bad design, but for a game in which I create my protagonist, they have no place on the box art. I don't mind them in gameplay videos, but them hogging the box art is not my cup of tea.

If, for some reason, Bioware needs to have their preset protagonist on the cover/in the marketing, by all means, show both sexes. Not only will that boost sales, as some gamers won't touch a game without the option to play as a female, but it'll also be informative. Let's say such a newbie gamer walks in to a Best Buy, sees a copy of DA2, and is interested. Then sees M!Hawke on the cover and screens, and nothing on the back about creating your character or playing as a female character. Interest wanes. Potential customer lost.

There's nothing confusing about having both genders shown. Nothing at all. A cover like this with a male mage Hawke and female warrior Hawke would be pretty sweet in fact.

Image IPB

#171
ReinaHW

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Elcariel wrote...

ReinaHW wrote...

Also Joan of Arc wasn't a coward, she was actually very brave and charismatic, she had very strong convictions and truly believed that God was working through her to bring peace to the land.
The nobles of France and England didn't like that, they were terrified of her, and she was betrayed by the French nobles and set up, the English then caught her and executed her as an example to anyone who dared to do what the nobles, who had started the conflicts in the first place because men in England claimed that the French throne belonged to them and men in France claimed the same thing, so it led to a great of bloodshed, then truce, followed by more bloodshed for over a century.


It's also worth mentioning...

Joan of Arc's crime, which led to her execution, was to dress as a man and join the army. The reason this was a crime was because *too many women had been doing that*. There were a lot more female warriors in medieval europe than most people today realize.


For all we know woman have been fighting along side men for centuries, but kept it quiet, and when they were found out it wasn't written in the records because the men were embarassed, likely because the women did a much better job than the gender stereotyping says they can.
It seems flawed that a woman would just want to sit back and cower while the men go out and fight, a woman would want to protect as well and fight against anyone who threatened their home.  I know I would take up arms and fight back if anyone threatened my family.

#172
AkiKishi

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ReinaHW wrote...
For all we know woman have been fighting along side men for centuries, but kept it quiet, and when they were found out it wasn't written in the records because the men were embarassed, likely because the women did a much better job than the gender stereotyping says they can.
It seems flawed that a woman would just want to sit back and cower while the men go out and fight, a woman would want to protect as well and fight against anyone who threatened their home.  I know I would take up arms and fight back if anyone threatened my family.


Women like that tend to be the exception rather than the rule. Iv'e done reinactment with blunted weapons and a woman in full plate armour like Meridith wears, that's something that does not tend to work in reality. A lot of our female members have custom armour which is lighter or contains more chain than the more traditional "white" armour that we wear.

Technology and magic are great equalisers, but historically the battlefield belongs to men.

#173
mmu1

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ReinaHW wrote...
For all we know woman have been fighting along side men for centuries, but kept it quiet, and when they were found out it wasn't written in the records because the men were embarassed, likely because the women did a much better job than the gender stereotyping says they can.
It seems flawed that a woman would just want to sit back and cower while the men go out and fight, a woman would want to protect as well and fight against anyone who threatened their home.  I know I would take up arms and fight back if anyone threatened my family.


Ah, yes, the Da Vinci Code theory. :?

It's a little less convoluted than that - women were usually not warriors for the simple reason that (on average) they have a little more than half the upper body strength of a male of similar size. (and since there's a pretty dire shortage of women that are the same size as the average male, the actual disparity is even bigger)

(However... Please don't take this as an edorsement of the "Woman, make me a sandwich" guy, I'm not saying this is a reason we shouldn't have female warriors in fantasy games.)

#174
LilyasAvalon

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Filament wrote...

I think that's the only reason it wasn't a total disaster. The beard entices people almost as much as candy entices children into the back of windowless vans.

So what's the tearstained air mattress then? :whistle:

#175
graavigala85

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the reason is that the game is not as good as the first one and people wanted something like the first one and instead they got cut and half baked piece of luff