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[Avissel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brought forth by the mighty Broseidon, king of the Brocean

I here he is in leage with the norse god Brodin.

(we should proably stop now)

[TEWR]

Avissel wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brought forth by the mighty Broseidon, king of the Brocean

I here he is in leage with the norse god Brodin.

(we should proably stop now)

unfortunately we're gonna have to. I can't think of any more appropriate bro-isms

[Icy Magebane]

Avissel wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

that explains why you're defiling it. It doesn't explain why you're bringing Leliana with you, who is a devout Andrastian and will get pissed at what you're doing. Especially since she's voiced her disgust at the thought already

Perhaps your just a complete and total dick?

Well how about this?  If you killed Zevran already, then you only have one rogue, and Genetivi says the place is filled with traps.  So you bring the only other rogue in the game...

What's with people being so rude when it comes to this character's fate anyway?  We all have our favorite and least favorite characters.  There is no need to resort to personal attacks simply because others don't feel the way you do about a companion...  I mean, Leliana was okay, but she wasn't all that.

Using finishing moves as a way to establish canon doesn't make sense to me either... my only objection was that the Warden would have checked the body and known if she was using "feign death" or something.  But more to the point, if she died and then the Maker resurrected her, or whatever DG eventually tells us... it's not a big deal.  At this point, I'm not even interested in import details.  The Architect is alive in every game I've played even though I killed him.  Until they fix the import bugs, none of this matters.

Also, I support Genetivi as the PC in DA3... maybe just an "Adventures of Brother Genetivi" DLC???  Hell, the man survived an encounter with Tal'Vashoth raiders too.  He's no simple scholar...

[Avissel]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Well how about this?  If you killed Zevran already, then you only have one rogue, and Genetivi says the place is filled with traps.  So you bring the only other rogue in the game...

You could use that as an explination as to why you brought her with you, yes. But without meta gaming we have no idea that  we can corrupt the ashes right?

Ok so we go along, crazy people try to kill us, some dragons are showing up, Leliana lets us know there are traps around while we struggle to get a bear trap  off our legs.

 Then we meet CULT LEADER MAN!

CLMZ: You are have been killing my people >( BUT...if you ruin the ashes, you will not have to fight like the 5 of us that are left.

How is that an atractive offer? I'm not saying you shouldnt have the option to destroy the ashes, just that the motivations you can pick in the game are pretty flimsy.

[BigEvil]

I'm starting to think Genetivi was just using the Warden to clear the way to the Ashes so he could compose the next few chapters of his epic tome. If the Warden had died Genetivi would have just gone in there Indiana Jones style and kicked ass.

As to retcons and epilogues it seems very foolish to believe that the random kill animations mean anything in terms of canon. I could be remembering incorrectly but I think I got the decapitation animation when I defeated Loghain at the Landsmeet on one playthrough. He was not a headless corpse in the following conversations. Although that would be hilarious to see now that I think about it. Heh, I'm a Warhammer 40k fan, it's difficult to care overmuch about canon when everything you have been told is a lie.

[TEWR]

Avissel wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
Well how about this?  If you killed Zevran already, then you only have one rogue, and Genetivi says the place is filled with traps.  So you bring the only other rogue in the game...

You could use that as an explination as to why you brought her with you, yes. But without meta gaming we have no idea that  we can corrupt the ashes right?

Ok so we go along, crazy people try to kill us, some dragons are showing up, Leliana lets us know there are traps around while we struggle to get a bear trap  off our legs.

 Then we meet CULT LEADER MAN!

CLMZ: You are have been killing my people >( BUT...if you ruin the ashes, you will not have to fight like the 5 of us that are left.

How is that an atractive offer? I'm not saying you shouldnt have the option to destroy the ashes, just that the motivations you can pick in the game are pretty flimsy.

not to mention Leliana voices her opinion at CLM

Leliana: I don't like this. We shouldn't trust this Kolgrim.

[Avissel]

The issue to me isn't so much that Leliana doesn't like it, it's that you're not really given much of a reason to like it.

You should destroy an incredible historic artifact...so you don't have to fight the guy who's been trying to murder you so he can keep his crazy cult a secret.
What kind of motivation is that?

[TEWR]

Avissel wrote...

The issue to me isn't so much that Leliana doesn't like it, it's that you're not really given much of a reason to like it.

You should destroy an incredible historic artifact...so you don't have to fight the guy who's been trying to murder you so he can keep his crazy cult a secret.
What kind of motivation is that?

especially when you've pretty much wiped the rest of the cult off the face of Thedas, robbed them of things that are valuable, and Kolgrim carries a fairly decent battle axe, some sovereigns, and possibly his armor. Oh and that there are only 5 left and the Dragon doesn't care about you until you give it a headache with the Gong.

[Icy Magebane]

Avissel wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
Well how about this?  If you killed Zevran already, then you only have one rogue, and Genetivi says the place is filled with traps.  So you bring the only other rogue in the game...

You could use that as an explination as to why you brought her with you, yes. But without meta gaming we have no idea that  we can corrupt the ashes right?

Ok so we go along, crazy people try to kill us, some dragons are showing up, Leliana lets us know there are traps around while we struggle to get a bear trap  off our legs.

 Then we meet CULT LEADER MAN!

CLMZ: You are have been killing my people >( BUT...if you ruin the ashes, you will not have to fight like the 5 of us that are left.

How is that an atractive offer? I'm not saying you shouldnt have the option to destroy the ashes, just that the motivations you can pick in the game are pretty flimsy.

Call me crazy, but I think it's possible for the player to rp a Warden who does not believe in the Maker or support the Chantry.  This quest provides an opportunity to destroy a relic that may be used to strenghten the Chantry's position... plus, Kolgrim offers power in the form of the Reaver spec (not sure if he identified it specifically at the time).  It isn't all that unrealistic to say that a Warden would ignore his companions' protests and do what he thinks is best.  I'm just saying that there are alternatives to the storyline that most people seem to like, and that these alternatives are just as valid.

[Avissel]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Call me crazy, but I think it's possible for the player to rp a Warden who does not believe in the Maker or support the Chantry.  This quest provides an opportunity to destroy a relic that may be used to strenghten the Chantry's position... plus, Kolgrim offers power in the form of the Reaver spec (not sure if he identified it specifically at the time).  It isn't all that unrealistic to say that a Warden would ignore his companions' protests and do what he thinks is best.  I'm just saying that there are alternatives to the storyline that most people seem to like, and that these alternatives are just as valid.

You're not crazy, that is entirely possible.

But I still say it's a little flimsy to go from "I do not believe in the maker" to "I will destroy this histoical relic."

It's like saying that an athiest that found the ark of covenants first reaction would be to poop in it because a guy that tried to murder him said he would show him some sweet fighting moves. Even if you don't believe it's still a priceless historical artifact.

I'm not saying people who ruined the Ashes are wrong, or it was wrong to accept his offer. I'm just saying that the situation could have been handled a bit better to make your Warden seem like less of a dick.

[Icy Magebane]

Avissel wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
Call me crazy, but I think it's possible for the player to rp a Warden who does not believe in the Maker or support the Chantry.  This quest provides an opportunity to destroy a relic that may be used to strenghten the Chantry's position... plus, Kolgrim offers power in the form of the Reaver spec (not sure if he identified it specifically at the time).  It isn't all that unrealistic to say that a Warden would ignore his companions' protests and do what he thinks is best.  I'm just saying that there are alternatives to the storyline that most people seem to like, and that these alternatives are just as valid.

You're not crazy, that is entirely possible.

But I still say it's a little flimsy to go from "I do not believe in the maker" to "I will destroy this histoical relic."

It's like saying that an athiest that found the ark of covenants first reaction would be to poop in it because a guy that tried to murder him said he would show him some sweet fighting moves. Even if you don't believe it's still a priceless historical artifact.

I'm not saying people who ruined the Ashes are wrong, or it was wrong to accept his offer. I'm just saying that the situation could have been handled a bit better to make your Warden seem like less of a dick.

lol... Well, IMO, the Ashes may or may not have been proof of the Maker.  For example, the creatures who seemd to be the spirits of Maferath, the Archon, and Andraste's followers, were actually Ash Wraiths.  The Guardian itself may have been a powerful spirit, or an abomination similar to Wynne or Anders.  Depending on which companions you bring, the holiness of the ruins is called into question, such as Oghren commenting on the amount of lyrium present.  It would all have to be seen from a skeptical point of view, of course, but until Leliana's claim in DA2 that "the Maker decided it wasn't her time," it seemed reasonable enough that the Maker's existance wasn't yet a fact.  Hell, it might still be up in the air, but I think Leliana's words confirmed it... unless even she doesn't know why she's still alive.

[Avissel]

It doesn't really matter if they are proof or not, I'm talking just about pure historical value.

Like say a statue of Zeus. The statue is not proof that he exists, but you still wouldn't destroy it because you don't think he exist would you? Proof or not it still has valve to the historic/art community. The reasons you are able to express in the game for destroying it are entirely self serving, to learn a fighting style and not have to fight that guys that tried to murder you. Those are the reasons of a dick.

Even just one line "I'm going to destroy this thing, because it's time people stopped believing in this falsehood" would have given you a way to destroy the urn and ash's for reasons other than your own personal gain.

(if I am miss-remembering and you CAN say something like that, I will gladly eat crow and withdraw my rantings, but I will not withdraw my rambling because dagnabbit I deserve to ramble.)

[Icy Magebane]

The Chantry's possession of ashes with healing properties, or even the location of Andraste's resting spot, would strengthen their power. These discoveries would give their claims credibility beyond the interpretation of centuries old documents and historical accounts (which are, of course, written by the victors of every conflict). A statue of Zeus doesn't hold the same meaning, because there is no such religion today. If you found holy relics from a religion that still survives, however... well, destroying them on those merits would seem logical.

The line you get for justifying the destruction is stupid... it's something like, "it's just a piece of old pottery," or something like that. I just ignore it and stick to the story I have going in my head.

[Avissel]

Right right, see that's what I'm saying.

Your not allowed to express that you are getting rid of the urns for any kind of noble, to your character, purpose. That is what I object to, no that act of defiling the ashes, just the lack of being able to express your motivation.

[Icy Magebane]

That's a fair point... this kind of inability to express your Warden's motives was rare in DA:O, and it felt a little jarring in this case. Usually, you have a wide range of options for expressing your intentions... maybe this was an oversight.

[Zkyire]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


but anyway yea. once you agree to Kolgrim's offer, nothing makes sense to bringing Leliana to defile it.

Which would be metagaming your decision. Which would mean you already know the outcome. So that excuse doesn't fly from an in-game perspective.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Not really. A dwarven Warden could care less about the religion. Doesn't mean he hates Andraste.

Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 22 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[TEWR]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...


Which would be metagaming your decision. Which would mean you already know the outcome. So that excuse doesn't fly from an in-game perspective.

No it's common sense. Don't bring the woman who has told you numerous times she is a devout believer in the Maker to a holy artifact that you're going to defile in front of her. Outcome of it doesn't factor in. There is no logic to bringing a believer to something you're going to defile in front of her, when she's already expressed her disgust at the idea of pouring blood into the Urn. (unless you're just being a dick).

Unless you're playing a dick, a person should know that she will despise it if she didn't approve of it when talking to Kolgrim.

Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less.

 damn. whatever. In the future I'll be sure to remember

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[Avissel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 damn. whatever. In the future I'll be sure to remember

Make sure you do. His punishment for this violation will be quite dracbronian. (triple word score)

[Zkyire]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...


Which would be metagaming your decision. Which would mean you already know the outcome. So that excuse doesn't fly from an in-game perspective.

No it's common sense. Don't bring the woman who has told you numerous times she is a devout believer in the Maker to a holy artifact that you're going to defile in front of her. Outcome of it doesn't factor in. There is no logic to bringing a believer to something you're going to defile in front of her, when she's already expressed her disgust at the idea of pouring blood into the Urn. (unless you're just being a dick).

Unless you're playing a dick, a person should know that she will despise it if she didn't approve of it when talking to Kolgrim.

Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less.

 damn. whatever. In the future I'll be sure to remember

When you're setting off on the Sacred Ashes quest, you don't do it knowing that there are Dragon Cultists up there who want you to defile the ashes. That's something you find out while you're there. And you don't have the option of sending her away while up there.

[TEWR]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...


Which would be metagaming your decision. Which would mean you already know the outcome. So that excuse doesn't fly from an in-game perspective.

No it's common sense. Don't bring the woman who has told you numerous times she is a devout believer in the Maker to a holy artifact that you're going to defile in front of her. Outcome of it doesn't factor in. There is no logic to bringing a believer to something you're going to defile in front of her, when she's already expressed her disgust at the idea of pouring blood into the Urn. (unless you're just being a dick).

Unless you're playing a dick, a person should know that she will despise it if she didn't approve of it when talking to Kolgrim.

Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less.

 damn. whatever. In the future I'll be sure to remember

When you're setting off on the Sacred Ashes quest, you don't do it knowing that there are Dragon Cultists up there who want you to defile the ashes. That's something you find out while you're there. And you don't have the option of sending her away while up there.

actually you do. Once you reach the mountaintop where the High Dragon is, you can switch party members. You also do know that there are people trying to kill you because you're investigating the Urn (Weylon and the cultists at the Lake Calenhad docks). also, here's an excerpt on dragon cults from a book Genitivi was reading...

Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well. Nevarran dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form in the first place? How did the cultists know to drink the dragon's blood? How did the high dragon convince them to care for its young, or know that they would?

You're taking advice on what to do from a man who is insane.

it's also interesting to note (though this is unrelated to the topic at hand) that the changes the dragon's blood does to a person who drinks it is considered blood magic. Grey Warden Blood is the same exact thing.

Avissel wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

 damn. whatever. In the future I'll be sure to remember

Make sure you do. His punishment for this violation will be quite dracbronian. (triple word score)

a new bro-ism!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[Rifneno]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less.

For all intensive purposes it's the same thing.

("That was a joke." - EDI)

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

When you're setting off on the Sacred Ashes quest, you don't do it knowing that there are Dragon Cultists up there who want you to defile the ashes. That's something you find out while you're there. And you don't have the option of sending her away while up there.

Maybe you just didn't try hard enough.

Warden:  Damn.  Leliana, I've got a serious case of the munchies and I left the ration pack back at camp.  Be a dear and go grab it?
Leliana:  This wouldn't have anything to do with that unholy offer you just took would it?  You're not going to defile Andraste's ashes while I'm gone?!
Warden:  No, no, nothing like that.  The Maker told me to.  Through that plant over there.
Leliana:  But that plant is dead.
Warden:  Yeah, it was alive a few minutes ago.  The Maker killed it.  That's his way of telling someone to endulge in peanut buttery goodness.
Leliana:  I see.  I'll leave right away then!

[Icy Magebane]

Well, it's not like the Warden could have predicted that Wynne and Leliana would try to kill him for defiling the Ashes... that's a rather extreme case of companion betrayal IMO. You want to leave the group? Okay. But to kill one of the only 2 surviving Wardens? Priorities ladies... the Maker isn't going to help you when the Archdemon shows up...

[TEWR]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Well, it's not like the Warden could have predicted that Wynne and Leliana would try to kill him for defiling the Ashes... that's a rather extreme case of companion betrayal IMO. You want to leave the group? Okay. But to kill one of the only 2 surviving Wardens? Priorities ladies... the Maker isn't going to help you when the Archdemon shows up...

maybe so, but you still shouldn't bring Leliana when she voices her rather strong opinion on the matter. Wynne I'm not sure if she voices her opinion, because I never bring her. If she doesn't, I can understand bringing her. You wouldn't know she wouldn't like it until after it was done. Plus, you can persuade/intimidate her to stand down can't you?

[Elhanan]

As I have no experience with Leliana being killed by the Warden, based soley upon this thread, I am guessing she gets upset while defiling the Ashes.

If this is where she is killed, either the excess of lyrium or the benevolant power of the Maker is enough to maintain life in a dying body. And if it occurs later in camp or elsewhere, she may not have been fully dead, and survived. Even if she was left in Lothering, she could have made it out of there much like the Hawkes.

In any event, she is in DA2, continues to be awesome, and is evedently on the market again; the only Romantic interest of interest for me!

[Huntress]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Um.... you lost us... Where have you been seeing this crap?

Every were!!! And to add salt to the wound, people who did US was always QQuing and complaining when witch hunt came out, and the OTHER people who didn't killed the warden, were so happy playing it..

Did you missed that one too?