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[TUHD]

I'll start to reiterate some history, so all can follow where my point is coming from.
About 3/4 of a year back, Dragon Age 2 got announced - at that time not all the DLC for DA:O was released. Followed by that, the months after interviews followed, CGI-generated trailers and screenshots started hitting the net. The majority of the people who had bought DA:O started to pay attention to DA2 (whether they liked DA:O or not).
However, when the gaming magazines got their hands-on time with the game, some doubt started to linger in the minds of some people - since according to some of the journalists, DA2 didn't feel like an successor to DA:O at all.

Despite that, the expectations were still positive in general, leading to an massive request on the forums for an demo of the game the weeks before the release of the game. Looking back, that was an request maybe better not honored... since after the demo got released an serious amount of people on the Internet started to wonder 'Is this bleak style the style of DA2?'
We got assured that it would be better, even so, that it would be 'awesome'. Note to Bioware: don't make such promises, it tends to cause backlashes if you can't keep the promise up.

Launch day. Reports of people who didn't get their package from the shop they ordered from, or got the regular edition instead of the SE they ordered. Total chaos - Bioware helped to solve some problems, but the amount of chaos was too big to handle by them alone.
After the launchday... both massive joy and disappointment starting to wave in. People who like the game, and people who disliked the game. This already lead to an potentially explosive situation.
Mike Laidlaw's first interview after the launch of the game. When asked about the disappointed fans, he delivered the fire to ignite the spread fuel around the internet - he told indirectly the disappointed fans to 'deal with it'. Big mistake. Multiple forums around the Internet, including this one, started to explode. People who already were disappointed, became majorly pissed-off. The tone became more grim on all forums regarding DA2.
This forum completely exploded, since due to the effort of pissed-off, disappointed fans who posted negative threads, trolls who just for the heck of it posted such threads too and fanboys/girls who didn't appreciate the negativism, an massive amount of flames started to lighten up. Not helping it was the fact the mods locked down threads of people who just were venting frustration, leading to more frustration.
Up to this day, Mike Laidlaw has refused to recognize the fact that the disappointed fans have any kind of point - keeping on indirectly insulting them over and over again. The flames are still raging, since the mods still let any pro-DA2 flaming go unchecked unless attented on, but keep on crushing down hard on people who are posting slightly offending threads just because the posters are massively frustrated and worry about the way the DA-series are going.


My points now...
- I am a worried fan/customer. I understand that if I were about the only one worried, I'd have no say in it. But come on, if only already over half of the posters on the Internet aren't satisfied with the way DA2 went, that should tell you SOMETHING how to approach your customers?
- Those forums. I know that different kinds of people come here - but my personal golden rule is 'Live and let live'. Flamers on both sides ('pro' and 'anti') are personally attacking people because of their valid opinions....
- Interviews. (Indirectly) Insulting customers is a great way to ****** people off and drive them away from your company. Laidlaw, I am mostly looking at you - but also Zeschuk and others.
- Replies on PMs and emails. I've had several interactions with Bioware-staff now on those forums, and while some were pretty neutral (John Epler, I might not like what you say and what you mod from time to time, but at least when requested to look at certain threads you look neutral at it), some are overtly hostile. Note to David Gaider: next time you tell me 'to suck it up, princess', check back whether your collague hasn't already complied with an request. I don't take kindly to such PMs.
(Edit here: to take away some confusion, that line from Gaider was when I asked John Epler, David Gaider and Stanley Woo in an PM  (whomever would come online first) to take a look at certain posts in an topic that I considered trying to incite a flame war. An screenshot of it should be on page... 2 if I recall OK)

TUHD

Modifié par TUHD, 22 avril 2011 - 06:08 .

[FedericoV]

Edit: not necessary anymore. Now I will read the post .

Modifié par FedericoV, 22 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[AlexXIV]

FedericoV wrote...

I have not read your post and I wont since it's a wall of text. But I must point out that reading the title and the content get a really comical reaction. I mean, you put a lot of effort to show your "lack of interest". Very emo.

Above that writing in your first sentence that you are not going to come back to read this thread makes me and probably others think 'Then why should we bother'.

tl;dr

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 avril 2011 - 09:06 .

[elearon1]

AlexXIV wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

I have not read your post and I wont since it's a wall of text. But I must point out that reading the title and the content get a really comical reaction. I mean, you put a lot of effort to show your "lack of interest". Very emo.

Above that writing in your first sentence that you are not going to come back to read this thread makes me and probably others think 'Then why should we bother'.

Which was also my reaction ... and will likely sum up the majority of them to make their way into this thead.  If you didn't want to hear the thoughts and reactions of others, why bother posting just to say the same thing every other angry DA2 hater has said?  Surely you've been in other anti-da2 threads sharing your mass produced opinion by now?

At any rate, if an intelligent conversation had actually threatened to spring up here it might have kept my interest - but since this is the quivelent of you tacking your opinion to a community billboard and walking away, I'll do what most everyone else is going to do in the next couple hours ... take a glance, shrug my shoulders, and walk away with the knowledge someone will have tacked over it and it will have been forgot by morning.

[Shadowbanner]

Well I have read your "wall of text" and agree with every word you write and I would add many more things.

Playing the devil's advocate BioWare employees, and in particularly the mods in this forum, must be undergoing huge pressure with how people have reacted to DA2. They are humans after all and jobs are at stake. For you and me it's just a game we play and enjoy in our spare time; but for these people its their full-time job with which they feed their families and pay off their mortgages.

There comes a point in which they adopt a defensive stance, because they are besieged, and see any criticism as a potential threat to be thwarted when the fact is, that safe for some trolls on bothe sides I add, the complaints are from legitimate customers with registered games.

Objectively, BioWare has been a textbook PR disaster over the last month. And Laidlaw in particular is putting off fires by adding petrol setting ablaze the fanbase. Not intelligent, not helpful.

I'd wager that they have no experience in damage control because as they've been so wildly successful for nearly two decades, making other developers green with envy, they never really needed PR experts....until now. Their first apallingly mediocre game.

A company can make many mistakes and still survive, but messing up with your customers and going as far as insulting them is a big NO-NO.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 22 avril 2011 - 09:21 .

[Mercannis]

TUHD wrote...


. Note to David Gaider: next time you tell me 'to suck it up, princess', check back whether your collague hasn't already complied with an request. I don't take kindly to such PMs.

TUHD

I read your post and while i agree with many of your points, any commentary that i had was washed away when i read this.  I almost choked on my beer.

[Rockworm503]

TUHD wrote...

Alright - I likely won't be reading this thread back later on, since there's about 99% chance fanboys/girls will start to flame this up, like they do with the most threads that are a bit negative.

This right there negates anything you had to say afterwards.
Why whould anyone bother reading anything you say if your not even going to take us seriously?
Since we're all just fanboys are gonna flame you then this thread has no meaning.
Don't start your thread by insulting the reader's intelligence nothing good will come of it.

[MorrigansLove]

DRAGON AGE 2 IZ BEST! YOU IZ GAI TO NAT LYK IT!

[TUHD]

/facepalm
I'll be editing my post then I guess. Didn't mean to insult anyone Rockworm503 (edit: also edited the title).
@ML: LOL

Modifié par TUHD, 22 avril 2011 - 11:29 .

[zeejay21]

TUHD wrote...

Activision did that too with Assassin's Creed 1, and that caused an similar massive lashback.

(wall of text)

Uh, it's Ubisoft who both developed and published AC1 and I didn't hear any backlash. It was a great game. Otherwise, the official forums would be filled with hate - it has been nothing but praises.

And don't worry about BioWare, they've been in business longer than I remembered. They can handle any PR disaster.

[TUHD]

zeejay21 wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Activision did that too with Assassin's Creed 1, and that caused an similar massive lashback.

(wall of text)

Uh, it's Ubisoft who both developed and published AC1 and I didn't hear any backlash. It was a great game. Otherwise, the official forums would be filled with hate - it has been nothing but praises.

And don't worry about BioWare, they've been in business longer than I remembered. They can handle any PR disaster.

My fault o.O And strange.... I heard and read some backlash about AC1 about the map/mission reusal etc. Hm - note to self, memory may be faulty. Check back with GLaDoS.

[Iwasdrunkbro]

You could type up new threads, paragraph after paragraph. until you're blue in the face. They're not listening. The simple fact is, Bioware doesnt care about you or I or any of it's original fans. All they see when you create a new thread is MONEY MONEY MONEY as a shadowy man with an EA badge stands in the corner nodding his head.

Its not about making quality games anymore its about making games based on what the current trend is and that is FPS mindless 'bash head on controller' nonsense. Its sad, but its fact. They dont care about you.

Modifié par Iwasdrunkbro, 22 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[KLUME777]

What i would like to know is what the average Bioware employee really thinks, under the company's fake smiles and nods. Assuming that they worked on previous Bioware games.

[Elhanan]

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

You could type up new threads, paragraph after paragraph. until you're blue in the face. They're not listening. The simple fact is, Bioware doesnt care about you or I or any of it's original fans. All they see when you create a new thread is MONEY MONEY MONEY as a shadowy man with an EA badge stands in the corner nodding his head.

Its not about making quality games anymore its about making games based on what the current trend is and that is FPS mindless 'bash head on controller' nonsense. Its sad, but its fact. They dont care about you.

Seen this before, but it was funnier earlier: "She turned me into a newt! *pause* I got better...."

[Dragonslayr09]

Damn that was a long intro post. I didn't bother even to try reading it. No wonder this isn't a hot topic. No one is on it.

[zeejay21]

TUHD wrote...

And strange.... I heard and read some backlash about AC1 about the map/mission reusal etc.

Nope. The only critic that was very vocal was the 'wait for the enemy to attack and just counter' combat mechanics, other than the PC lags when it was released using DX10. Other than that, people are just mesmerized by the game.

Modifié par zeejay21, 22 avril 2011 - 12:03 .

[Iwasdrunkbro]

Elhanan wrote...

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

You could type up new threads, paragraph after paragraph. until you're blue in the face. They're not listening. The simple fact is, Bioware doesnt care about you or I or any of it's original fans. All they see when you create a new thread is MONEY MONEY MONEY as a shadowy man with an EA badge stands in the corner nodding his head.

Its not about making quality games anymore its about making games based on what the current trend is and that is FPS mindless 'bash head on controller' nonsense. Its sad, but its fact. They dont care about you.

Seen this before, but it was funnier earlier: "She turned me into a newt! *pause* I got better...."

How do we tell if Bioware is made of wood...

[MorrigansLove]

FedericoV wrote...

I have not read your post and I wont since it's a wall of text. But I must point out that reading the title and seeing the content (especially the I wont' read any reply disclaimer) is really comical. I mean, you put a lot of effort to show your "lack of interest". Very emo. Thanks for the good laugh.

How extremely immature. <_<

[zeejay21]

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

How do we tell if Bioware is made of wood...

Um, knock on it?

[Kajan451]

I agree with the Original Post

Shadowbanner wrote...

I'd wager that they have no experience in damage control

In my opinion they have no experiance in dealing with any kind of negative feedback.

In the past Months i have seen many fine examples on this board which just left me with the opinion some of the Devs are either incredibly arrogant or just plain d***s. I won't name names, because i do not want to turn this into a personal insult, but that "suck it up, princess" sounds believable. Even if it is made up, which is beyond my ability to judge, it sounds authentic enough.

If not for  Luke Barrett, who has restored my faith in at least some members of the team, i would most likely have accepted the Team responsible for DA as beyond hope.

But i make no mistake, its not like my opinion would matter either way. All i can hope for is that someone is still reading these threads and maybe has a word with some members of the Team.

After all, adding insult to injury is never the way to go.

And as Artist, i simply have to say: If you can't deal with ignoring people bad mouthing your work, and still remain a civil and smiling facade, no matter how much it hurts that your work is considered bad by people, then you should be looking for a different profession.

Not even Rockstars and Movie Celebrities can get away with being a total ass insulting, unless they are Charlie Sheen (it seems).

[Elhanan]

Yes; all this negativity is new, and nobody in the Great White North has ever seen the like before. Well, maybe a little....

*any title since the days of NWN1*

Modifié par Elhanan, 22 avril 2011 - 12:02 .

[Nasabe]

I do think an artist ultimately should do what he loves and wants without the concern of what others want from him.

Say, would you bash a painter because he painted a different picture than what his fans wanted? Or a writer who writes a book which is not what is expected from her? this goes on.. Michelangelo, Tolkien all have been bashed in their time because what was expected of them and what they did.

Although it might seem like a far-fetched comparison, the principle is the same for artists in Bioware and what is expected of them. There are certainly elements that I do not like in DA2, the way classes work and how players are pushed to pre-determined paths with their chosen classes, and many other things.. But I cannot claim an artist should do what others think they should.

With that in mind I certainly respect Bioware for trying something different, taking most dice-rolls out of the equation, engaging the players in companion-quests rather than conversation-based reveals. Even pushing players in certain paths (Melee or Range, can't do a bit of both, no jack of all trades etc.) is a bold decision.

Some of those I certainly not agree with and some of them I do. But it is clear to me that the artists have done what they wanted to do and not what was expected of them. Such an attitude is so rare in an industry-based artform these days I feel we must give them credit for it.

so, if I am allowed the illusion of reaching a Bioware artist through these forums:

Be proud of DA2, recognize how fortunate you are to be allowed these decisions, and please oh please do not limit the players' class choices even further =)

[FedericoV]

TUHD wrote...

zeejay21 wrote...

TUHD wrote...

Activision did that too with Assassin's Creed 1, and that caused an similar massive lashback.

(wall of text)

Uh, it's Ubisoft who both developed and published AC1 and I didn't hear any backlash. It was a great game. Otherwise, the official forums would be filled with hate - it has been nothing but praises.

And don't worry about BioWare, they've been in business longer than I remembered. They can handle any PR disaster.

My fault o.O And strange.... I heard and read some backlash about AC1 about the map/mission reusal etc. Hm - note to self, memory may be faulty. Check back with GLaDoS.

Being a huge AC fan, it was more a reviewer thing that become popular between people who have not really played the game. There was no negative thread in the forums. AC1 was received very well and created a huge, supportive and dedicated fanbase that was very happy with AC2 and ACB too. It was not map recycle. Simply put, the side quest were repetitive but they were very optional content for completists. The core of the game was really varied and fun.

[Sabriana]

Kajan451 wrote...

I agree with the Original Post

Shadowbanner wrote...

I'd wager that they have no experience in damage control

In my opinion they have no experiance in dealing with any kind of negative feedback.

In the past Months i have seen many fine examples on this board which just left me with the opinion some of the Devs are either incredibly arrogant or just plain d***s. I won't name names, because i do not want to turn this into a personal insult, but that "suck it up, princess" sounds believable. Even if it is made up, which is beyond my ability to judge, it sounds authentic enough.

If not for  Luke Barrett, who has restored my faith in at least some members of the team, i would most likely have accepted the Team responsible for DA as beyond hope.

But i make no mistake, its not like my opinion would matter either way. All i can hope for is that someone is still reading these threads and maybe has a word with some members of the Team.

After all, adding insult to injury is never the way to go.

And as Artist, i simply have to say: If you can't deal with ignoring people bad mouthing your work, and still remain a civil and smiling facade, no matter how much it hurts that your work is considered bad by people, then you should be looking for a different profession.

Not even Rockstars and Movie Celebrities can get away with being a total ass insulting, unless they are Charlie Sheen (it seems).

Sadly, this seems to be true. They appear arrogant and dismissive, with a few notable exceptions. For example, many, many posts I have read include the complaint:

"There is not enough companion interaction and/or character growth. "

This includes postings from people who like DA 2 equally/more than DA:O. However, I just found out that David Gaider posted this:

=====================================================================================

"If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There
could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone
feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party
camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see
front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly
introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in
Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of
returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for
character development anytime soon"

Full text at:

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/305/index/7154827/1


=====================================================================================

I'm sorry, but dimissing a major, standing out like a sore thumb concern and complaint of people with arrogance is not a good thing to do. "Too bad?" Yes, indeed it is. Too bad for them. There are others, and I can spend my money there quite easily.

"Long, rambling conversations?" I see. I guess that makes those of us who actually like talking to our companions a lot and in-depth idiotic old fogeys who like "ramblings".  In the spirit of the post, I find that remark derogatory. Personally, I get the feeling of being pat-patted on the head, and send out to play and "grow up."

Sorry, but this just doesn't cut it. Not for me. If this is truly the direction they're heading in, then I wish them a pleasant journey. I'll be waving good-bye, with a few tears in my eye. It has been a great ride, but now we must part.

No, losing my piddly little euros won't bother them. But I'll feel great, and I will spend them on creators who do cater to my personal preferences. It's a simple as that.

---> sarcasm:
Heaven's forbid they actually listen to one of the major complaints about DA 2. Why, they might even apease people. And what's worse, they might even increase sales. And they certainly can't have that. They rather be "right", and look down their noses at all those whose opinion differs. /sarcasm

Modifié par Sabriana, 22 avril 2011 - 12:32 .