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(Edited) Why BW would need to try hard to convince me (and others?) to buy a new DA-game


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#76
JaegerBane

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Shamajotsi wrote...
It's the way the rest of the criticism has been voiced that concerns me. The battle system has been changed and DA2 has undergone a new art direction. Alright, maybe you don't like it, maybe I don't like it, maybe nobody likes it. Why should we word our criticism as a demand to Bioware of what they should do next, though? Isn't it up to them to decide whether they want to maintain artistic integrity or listen to the popular criticism? Why do they have to admit that they have messed up the game, if they themselves do not think this is the case? I am almost convinced that the writers would never state that they did anything wrong with DA2 by the many replies they have given that show they actually loved what they've done.


Yours is probably one of the more well thought-out posts on the matter, but there are a few issues which I'm not convinced are truly valid considering the situation.

The general gist above implies that Bioware should be given credit, and a lot of it, purely for trying something new. It's worth pointing out that there isn't any inherent value in trying something new, when it comes to game development - whatever they try, it's only a good thing if it makes sense and works, which can't really be said of many things in DA2. If it's a bad idea that was clearly not going to work from the outset - like creating a story that was virtually divorced from the players actions, or reusing levels for the entirety of the game, or setting a 60+ hour game in a location no larger than Denerim or Neverwinter, it's a little difficult to justify as being credit-worthy purely because it's new. If Bioware created an ability to leave turds all over Kirkwall, that would certainly be new, but I doubt it would be considered positive.

However, there are aspects of the game of ambiguous quality. I doubt that there are too many of the people working for Bioware, apart from Brent Knowles, who didn't like the new gameplay approach. I doubt that there is anyone in the writing team who doesn't like the idea of a framed narrative, who doesn't like the new characters, or who disagrees with the newest additions to the Thedas lore.

If I am right, well, the community has made certain points quite clear and the latest attempts to restate them in a more and more sarcastic manner are getting out of hand. It is up to Bioware to decide the path they will take with the DA franchise from now on - whether it will be what they have had in their minds since they began working on DA2, or it will be what the most vocal people on those forums demand from them. Both options seem fair in their own way.


I think it's pretty clear that Bioware consider themselves artists and the development of computer games an art form, no doubt about that - but I don't really see how this is relevant to the issue at hand. *They* may think they've done an amazing job and are willing to lecture anyone who says otherwise about how awesome they are, but unless the idea is that the game is marketed purely at the people who made it, and all sales are going to come from purchases made by the dev team, it stands to reason that the developers should at least take into account some of the viewpoints of their audience. There's plenty of ambiguity about the relative level of quality of DA2 but one thing that isn't ambiguous is the fact that, to paraphrase one reviewer, DA2 is probably Bioware's most critically-mixed major release.

Clearly, while the dev team may have had their reasons for all the new introductions, they've badly misjudged what the fans were after.... and obviously didn't think through some of their changes.

Who knows what the motivations for so much unwanted changes. At the end of the day, though, they're making these games to sell, and if they aren't up to scratch, they won't sell. We don't really have a clear idea whether DA2 has met it's targets or not, but judging from the mixed reviews and general word-of-mouth, many of the changes introduced in DA2 have damaged the validity of the Dragon Age franchise. Regardless of artistic merit, such damage isn't going to do anyone any good.

I think there is plenty of justifcation to say that dev team really need to have a long, hard think about what they add and what they change in future. Clearly, the approach of just modding and changing anything they want without regards to whether it works or is what the players want isn't really working.

#77
Rockpopple

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TUHD, you and I both know that isn't true. I've seen you attack Persephone multiple times when she wasn't trolling at all. She was having a conversation with people who were conversating with her. And if that was trolling, why didn't you call the other people trolls too? You only singled her out. In fact, you never single out people who agree with you who insult other people, only people who disagree with you.

Come on. You have an agenda, dude.

Anyway, I'm not gonna belabour the point. I'll leave your topic to you, now.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 22 avril 2011 - 06:14 .


#78
Sabriana

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Curlain wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

<snip>

"If you felt less connected to your followers, that's too bad. There
could be many reasons for that, but if the requirement to someone
feeling connected is having long, rambling conversations in the party
camp... I can safely say that's unlikely to happen again. I could see
front-loading the characters a bit more so players are more thoroughly
introduced (as it was, a lot of the character interaction ended up in
Act 2 quite by accident) but I have absolutely no intention of
returning to the reams of expository dialogue as a replacement for
character development anytime soon"

Full text at:

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/305/index/7154827/1


<snipped for a clutter free environment ;)



I have been wondering having played DA2 whether I will still be part of the audience that DA3 will cater to.  Seems like I have my answer on the whole here, abate in a rather condecending and insulting manner.  And since liking building relationship through conversations in this manner is deemed rambling it seems indicative that the series is truly parting ways with my personal preferences.  It's sad, but like you say, there are other developers out there, so it looks like I'll have to wish the DA world a sad goodbye (it would have been nice though if some of BioWare's responses were not quite so condecending to players who enjoyed their older style of doing things)


Yes, and that makes me rather sad. I've been a bioware customer for a long time, and I always gave them preferential treatment when their games went agains other AAA titles.

However, what I'm hearing and reading in the forums and in interviews gives me, personally, the feeling that the direction of DA 2 is the way they will go, criticism be damned. I'm afraid they will continue to not listen to constructive criticism.

I get annoyed when people find it necessary to insult me, patronize me, or behave in condescending ways toward me. Merchants who indulge in that behavior toward me or mine usually do not see me again. My money is welcome elsewhere, of that I'm sure.

I am not in the habit of spending my "fun" money on things I don't enjoy, and I most definitely won't buy titles simply because of the company name/label on it. That would be simply unthinkable. I am not a charity, after all.

I do not wish them ill. I wish them luck in whatever direction they wish to go, but if it's not the direction I prefer, then I go elsewhere. I wish that SW:TOR will be smashing and continued success. I avoid MMOs, I dislike them, and I'll never play one, but I also know that many do, and more power to them.

Bioware and its fine creators have been good to me for a long time, and I enjoyed their creations immensely. For that I will always be grateful. But if they no longer produce what I consider an enjoyable game, then I will look elsewhere. It's mature consumer behavior, it's educated consumer behavior, and it's logical behavior.

#79
Huntress

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One question: did this comment from the writer was in a private message or in the forum? Link the post.

Please lets be clear if it was a private message btw this 2 people, then it should stay in there, the only thing I see is someone trying to suck up/get points, sadly not enough for a dlc and reporting a fellow player for having a different view of the game, the answer to his message was: wake the frack up, everyone has an opinion, learn to live with it... now you can all /wrist,/cry or better yet, insult me but this is what I see.

Was the best way of an answer to the OP? no, do I really care if OP is unhappy that persephone is not satisfied with DA2, not a bit.

Modifié par Huntress, 22 avril 2011 - 06:27 .


#80
TUHD

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Hello Huntress, it was in an PM. Yes, I know the meaning of 'PM' (before anyone attempts to point at that again), but in my opinion it makes a whole lot of difference whether the PM is with an fellow regular user or with someone working at Bioware.
As for the your last line, you misinterprent my stance on that - but that's no problem if it's up to me, since you reply in a good manner.
Edit: I noticed you edited your post - I already sent an PM to Rockpopple about it who came up with the same, I'll sent you an copy of it if you want.

Modifié par TUHD, 22 avril 2011 - 06:29 .


#81
JaegerBane

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Huntress wrote...

One question: did this comment from the writer was in a private message or in the forum? Link the post.

Please lets be clear if it was a private message btw this 2 people, then it should stay in there, the only thing I see is someone trying to suck up/get points, sadly not enough for a dlc and reporting a fellow player for having a different view of the game, the answer to his message was: wake the frack up, everyone has an opinion, learn to live with it... now you can all /wrist,/cry or better yet, insult me but this is what I see.

Was the best way of an answer to the OP? no, do I really care if OP is unhappy that persephone is not satisfied with DA2, not a bit.


I don't really understand the logic of the above. If the guy spoke like this to a customer I can't see what relevance it has as to whether it was a public or private post. If a waiter pulled you aside and told you that he thought you looked like a leper in a dress in private rather than saying so in front of the rest of the customers, would you be willing to simply let it slide?

Gaider has got a reputation for being blunt and, for what it worth, I personally thought some of the vitriol he got for his writing in DA:O was bang out of order. But tat like 'suck it up', regardless of how it was delivered, doesn't speak highly of the professionalism (or mindset) of the dev team.

#82
Dormiglione

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@THUD
I have read your edited main post and i agree in most of the points you have.

Lets look at the situation from the perspective and view of a software programmer. You need a lot of programmer for such a product. Some write the gore, some collision detection, other grafic and environment and so on.

Decision where the product goes and how it looks like were made from a few people like lead designer, lead developer and so on. This doesnt mean that the programmer shares the opinion of the lead team, but the programmer makes his job, the task that was assigned to him.
But even if the programmer does agree or not with the lead decisions, he/she is proud of his/her work, the contribution to the final product that goes to the customer. You can be sure that every programmer of DA2 is aware of the situation, the critics because they want to know how does the product sell/perform on which they worked for so long.

So as programmer you feel disappointed with so much critic. Now it depends on his position, on the weight of his opinion within the team, if he agree that some points of critic are valid and many more factors. Im pretty sure that the critics all over the web, the sales are discussed between all the involved people at Bioware. We will never hear how its discussed, but there will be changes for DA3.

Look at it from the economic sight. You made a product. The production needed a certain investment. Now the product doesnt sell well. On the other hand you have an older product, that sold well and had for more good reviews than bad reviews.

I mean, i can deny that the critized points are valid, i can pretend that the customer dont know what he wants but in the end only one thing matters. Is DA2 a success, did it sell good or extraordinary. Simple math, how much did the development cost and how much did i earn with the product. If the ratio isnt as expected ...

#83
Gamer Ftw

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But if there are people who buy the games no matter what are they even going to care what the rest of us think?
I take my gaming pretty seriously and I am really conflicted on some of the choices they have made I'm not made of money after all.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 22 avril 2011 - 06:46 .


#84
TUHD

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Gamer Ftw wrote...

But if there are people who buy the games no matter what are they even going to care what the rest of us think?


That's their pregorative (hm, is that spelling right? Since I am no native speaker of English...) to decide whether or not they accept the criticism. If you decide to ignore it, you'll lose customers - but customers who are critical about things made. If you decide to listen to it and act on largely heard criticism - if it's fair criticism - you'll likely keep both the customers and the criticism. Their choice. Albeit I might be a bit rash at times, I admit I don't envy Bioware at the moment - they've got a hell of a choice to make what to do with Dragon Age in the future.

#85
Dormiglione

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Gamer Ftw wrote...

But if there are people who buy the games no matter what are they even going to care what the rest of us think?

There will always be people who buy a game. Question is: will there be enough sales or not.

I mean, i have the choice to do what i want. I preordered DA2 because im addicted to DAO. What do you think? Will i preorder DA3?

#86
spacepopeadventures

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That comment by David Gaider (re: narrative, not the PM which has wasted far too many people's time already) still floors me. Did anyone actually complain about the "rambling" fireside chats in DA:O? Did anyone really say "I don't want to hear Morrigan explain myths about her mum to me; I just want to read it in tiny text on the screen and get on with the killing"? "No, don't have me attend a good friend's wedding, or talk to her about it; just chuck it in a recap codex"? I think there's a saying about things that aren't broken, and what one shouldn't do with them. . . .

#87
JaegerBane

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spacepopeadventures wrote...
I think there's a saying about things that aren't broken, and what one shouldn't do with them. . . .


This has been a recurring thing with Bioware sequels/expansions for a while. The only difference in DA2's case is that the good stuff was outweighed by 'fixes' to stuff that wasn't broken, instead of the other way around.

#88
Gamer Ftw

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Also i get the feeling if we do complain they see us as trolls or whiners and just ignore it.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 22 avril 2011 - 07:04 .


#89
drvaughn1999

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Gamer Ftw wrote...

Also i get the feeling if we do complain they see us as trolls or whiners and just ignore it.


Then they will lose fans that have been with them for years.

#90
RinpocheSchnozberry

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TUHD wrote...

How are you calling the following then? Looks like an post only meant as an insult to me (aka trolling)


There were no insults in my posts, at all.  You're either very, very thin skinned, in which case I'm sorry you discovered the internet, or you're not reading them.  :P:P:P  Or something else...


Also, I let my original post speak for itself, as it should be.


Ok, man, if you're ok with having drawn a misinformed conclusion because the things you've assumed are wrong, then go ahead and let your post speak for itself.  You might as well just keep it to yourself though, maybe write it on a notebook and then read it over and over again.  You'll experience less annoyance that way.

#91
RinpocheSchnozberry

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jds1bio wrote...

"Suck it up, Princess.", while it might be considered hilarious by some, is not a statement of truth. 

Now go start a company, tell your customers this, and then try to sell a million units.  That's what John Romero did.  I guess you don't remember John Romero telling his customers to "suck it down", then trying to sell Daikatana.  It didn't work out well for him.  At all.


It didn't work out for him because the game catered to an audience that had long since passed it by.  By the time it came out, all the interesting features were available in other games.  That's why Romero's reputation went to crap.  That and the legendary mismanagement of his office.

I think you intentionally misquoted DG's reply though.  :D:D:D

#92
zeejay21

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Gamer Ftw wrote...

Also i get the feeling if we do complain they see us as trolls or whiners and just ignore it.


You really can't expect officials to respond to just about every post in every thread. If they really want to address concerns, they'll announce it via threads or their websites.

Do remember that officials do have works - it's best to focus and refine work, consider and reconsider ideas rather than chatting with people; unless it's urgent or connecting to their work.

drvaughn1999 wrote...

Then they will lose fans that have been with them for years.


A necessary risk. I've seen companies lose and regain customers over the years. If BioWare improves their games in the future, they either get new customers or regain old ones or both.

One look at EA , the parent company of BioWare and how it was criticized over the years but they persevered and became one of the largest game company in the US.

Modifié par zeejay21, 22 avril 2011 - 07:22 .


#93
Huntress

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TUHD wrote...

Hello Huntress, it was in an PM. Yes, I know the meaning of 'PM' (before anyone attempts to point at that again), but in my opinion it makes a whole lot of difference whether the PM is with an fellow regular user or with someone working at Bioware.
As for the your last line, you misinterprent my stance on that - but that's no problem if it's up to me, since you reply in a good manner.
Edit: I noticed you edited your post - I already sent an PM to Rockpopple about it who came up with the same, I'll sent you an copy of it if you want.


Look I understand what happened, you don't have to convince me, I can read.

You sended a PRIVATE message, you got an answer, wasn't what you expected, so you post it in the forum, yes i got that already.

Like i said before and again, it was wrong way to answer to you, yes it was, did you win anything for posting a private post in here? yes my opinion!

I have recived many PM myself some people not likeing how I described DA2 after the demo was out, did you read any of them? NO? why? it was send to me privately and I am a grown woman! I either sux it up or, respond to them, that were my options. Have I probably been reported for all my post to bioware? i bet 99.9% that I have been reported, the same way you did to Persephone* ( sorry sp)

I do not want to be rude to you OR anyone also, just please don't ask for others opinion about a private matter.

good luck to you!=]

#94
Sabriana

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Gamer Ftw wrote...

Also i get the feeling if we do complain they see us as trolls or whiners and just ignore it.


Well, sure they can do that. It's their decision to choose the direction they wish to go in. Time will tell if it was smart. I do believe that the niche marked for RPGs is highly underestimated. DA:O did very well for being RPG centric. It is still selling well given its age.

However, it is also my right to decide where my money goes, and shooter/action/anime hybrids are not the place I will spend my *fun* money on. Someone will come along and scoop up an abandoned niche. I've even seen some Eastern producers trying to incorporate more of the Western RPG into their games. Now would be a good time.

Then there are studios like Bethsoft and Obsidian who are doing their thing, and are looking good doing it. FO:NV seems to still have bugs and issues, that's why I haven't purchased it. Skyrim looks interesting, I'll keep my eyes on it, and when/if they fix the inevitable bugs, I'll buy it.

Then there are the small RPG centric European studios who took hold of the RPG niche very successfully. So there's always hope ;)

#95
Gamer Ftw

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zeejay21 wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Also i get the feeling if we do complain they see us as trolls or whiners and just ignore it.


You really can't expect officials to respond to just about every post in every thread. If they really want to address concerns, they'll announce it via threads or their websites.

Do remember that officials do have works - it's best to focus and refine work, consider and reconsider ideas rather than chatting with people; unless it's urgent or connecting to their work.

With all due respect bull****.
I have been playing bioware games since Baldur's Gate and now they decide to cater to these superfans who would buy games regardless of quality.
Does my opinion suddenly not matter because they will buy anything Bioware sells and all praise Gaider?

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 22 avril 2011 - 07:23 .


#96
JaegerBane

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RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
It didn't work out for him because the game catered to an audience that had long since passed it by.  By the time it came out, all the interesting features were available in other games.  That's why Romero's reputation went to crap.  That and the legendary mismanagement of his office.


That isn't totally correct. Daikatana failed more to do with poorly implemented features (like the squadmates and the AI) rather than being aimed at an audience that had moved on. I mean, the shooter crowd was still there at Daikatana's release and still around now. They just don't like games with crap AI, frustrating design and limited content.

#97
spacepopeadventures

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JaegerBane wrote...

This has been a recurring thing with Bioware sequels/expansions for a while. The only difference in DA2's case is that the good stuff was outweighed by 'fixes' to stuff that wasn't broken, instead of the other way around.


I wouldn't know; the only other Bioware games I've played are Jade Empire (no sequel :() and ME. I don't quite agree that Bioware tried to fix stuff that wasn't broken in ME2--every change, as far as I can see, was aimed at improving an actual problem area. For instance, the inventory system wasn't simplified just for ****s and giggles; everyone complained about how clunky ME's was, and ME2 solved that in a radical way. Too radical for some, to be sure, but even detractors can see why it was done.

DA2, on the other hand, messes with a bunch of stuff most everyone agreed was strong. Which review of DA:O ever complained that there was too much talking in it? By and large, players liked those "rambling" conversations, and thought they served to advance character development quite nicely. It's a pity DG didn't.

I'm not quite prepared to accept this unnecessary tinkering as par for the course for Bioware.

#98
zeejay21

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Gamer Ftw wrote...

With all due respect bull****.
I have been playing bioware games since Baldur's Gate and now they decide to cater to these superfans who would buy games regardless of quality.
Does my opinion suddenly not matter because they will buy anything Bioware sells and all praise Gaider?


Harsh truth: Yes.

It's purely a business matter. History shows even dedicated gamers/customers can't save a company from shutting down. There's many good game companies I've seen over the years shut down despite having healthy sales (numbers) and critical acclaimed games/products.

#99
Curlain

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Sabriana wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Also i get the feeling if we do complain they see us as trolls or whiners and just ignore it.


Well, sure they can do that. It's their decision to choose the direction they wish to go in. Time will tell if it was smart. I do believe that the niche marked for RPGs is highly underestimated. DA:O did very well for being RPG centric. It is still selling well given its age.

However, it is also my right to decide where my money goes, and shooter/action/anime hybrids are not the place I will spend my *fun* money on. Someone will come along and scoop up an abandoned niche. I've even seen some Eastern producers trying to incorporate more of the Western RPG into their games. Now would be a good time.

Then there are studios like Bethsoft and Obsidian who are doing their thing, and are looking good doing it. FO:NV seems to still have bugs and issues, that's why I haven't purchased it. Skyrim looks interesting, I'll keep my eyes on it, and when/if they fix the inevitable bugs, I'll buy it.

Then there are the small RPG centric European studios who took hold of the RPG niche very successfully. So there's always hope ;)


Good points, and if BioWare is shifting their focus towards a new market of players and away from the catering to the RPG niche on the whole, there are hopes that there are those who will have the opportunity to come in and fill that niche (I for one, would love to see what CDProject would do with a party-based RPG with non pregenerated PC after they have released TW2, as I think they could produce an amazing party-based cRPG game) B)

#100
Addai

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- I am a worried fan/customer. I understand that if I were about the
only one worried, I'd have no say in it. But come on, if only already
over half of the posters on the Internet aren't satisfied with the way
DA2 went, that should tell you SOMETHING how to approach your customers?



(husband)

All I can say is.... my expectations were set very low for DA2 based on what happened with Awakening and DLC.  And I was actually pleasantly suprised by 90% of it.   (I really expected something like a double sized Awakening type game with a voiced PC.    And fared much better than that).

Am I alone in that reaction?