244 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

spacepopeadventures wrote...

That comment by David Gaider (re: narrative, not the PM which has wasted far too many people's time already) still floors me. Did anyone actually complain about the "rambling" fireside chats in DA:O? Did anyone really say "I don't want to hear Morrigan explain myths about her mum to me; I just want to read it in tiny text on the screen and get on with the killing"? "No, don't have me attend a good friend's wedding, or talk to her about it; just chuck it in a recap codex"? I think there's a saying about things that aren't broken, and what one shouldn't do with them. . . .

 I would suggest reading all of his responses in the thread in question. As usual they are  not even half as offensive as the usual complainers on the board make them sound and contain quite more explanation on his view on this topic and the limitations of dialog.

Also am I the only one whom the companions of DA:O stopped talking to? Except empty dialog loops along the lines of
Me: "Let´s talk"
NPC:" What about"
Me:"Let´s stopp talking"
Which for me was not really better than the way DA2 handles it if  the NPC in question has nothing new to say.

[TUHD]

Wittand25 wrote...

spacepopeadventures wrote...

That comment by David Gaider (re: narrative, not the PM which has wasted far too many people's time already) still floors me. Did anyone actually complain about the "rambling" fireside chats in DA:O? Did anyone really say "I don't want to hear Morrigan explain myths about her mum to me; I just want to read it in tiny text on the screen and get on with the killing"? "No, don't have me attend a good friend's wedding, or talk to her about it; just chuck it in a recap codex"? I think there's a saying about things that aren't broken, and what one shouldn't do with them. . . .

 I would suggest reading all of his responses in the thread in question. As usual they are  not even half as offensive as the usual complainers on the board make them sound and contain quite more explanation on his view on this topic and the limitations of dialog.

Also am I the only one whom the companions of DA:O stopped talking to? Except empty dialog loops along the lines of
Me: "Let´s talk"
NPC:" What about"
Me:"Let´s stopp talking"
Which for me was not really better than the way DA2 handles it if  the NPC in question has nothing new to say.

That's one of the flaws of DA:O - but it isn't new. Also ME2 handles it a bit that way, and other previous BioWare-games. Not that I blame them.... I never see an system which is both responsive and flexible enough to replace the current system, since it requires generating lines - so in other words... don't see it changing soon.

Modifié par TUHD, 22 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[JaegerBane]

spacepopeadventures wrote...
I wouldn't know; the only other Bioware games I've played are Jade Empire (no sequel ) and ME. I don't quite agree that Bioware tried to fix stuff that wasn't broken in ME2--every change, as far as I can see, was aimed at improving an actual problem area. For instance, the inventory system wasn't simplified just for ****s and giggles; everyone complained about how clunky ME's was, and ME2 solved that in a radical way. Too radical for some, to be sure, but even detractors can see why it was done.

True, the majority of changes made were for good reason and done well. That's kind what I was getting at when I mentioned that, in DA2, the bad outweighed the good rather than vice versa. There were still elements of fixing stuff that wasn't broken in ME2, though - notably, the OTT focus added on things like the Vanguard, to the point where it became a one-trick-pony, the inability to remove helmets on the fly, leading to weird things like Shep drinking and kissing though his faceplate, the attempt at cover-based mechanics for vehicles resulting in a hovertank that was more fragile than Shepard himself etc. Granted, these were side issues that didn't interfere with the core game itself, but that's my point - in DA2, the stuff being fixed that wasn't broken affected the most basic aspects of the game.

DA2, on the other hand, messes with a bunch of stuff most everyone agreed was strong. Which review of DA:O ever complained that there was too much talking in it? By and large, players liked those "rambling" conversations, and thought they served to advance character development quite nicely. It's a pity DG didn't.

I'm not quite prepared to accept this unnecessary tinkering as par for the course for Bioware.

We saw similar stuff in Awakening aswell. Of course the reviews of Awakening was very hit and miss, yeah, but there were plenty of things in Awakening that were changed for no good reason. It didn't sink the game altogether, though - it was still fun. Not as good as it could be, but you can't fault it's ambition.

This wasn;t the case with DA2. It's a lot easier to accept oversights when they occur on minor parts of the game rther than at the very core.... such as seeing the same damn cave being used to represent the location of several main quests.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 22 avril 2011 - 07:38 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Yeah but at least you have a clear idea if a romance is active.
have more realistic jealousy dialogues and get more indepth with them.

[spacepopeadventures]

Wittand25 wrote...

 I would suggest reading all of his responses in the thread in question. As usual they are  not even half as offensive as the usual complainers on the board make them sound and contain quite more explanation on his view on this topic and the limitations of dialog.

Got a link? (If it was posted earlier, I missed it.)

I'm interested in what he has to say, but I don't think any of it will change the fact that I liked what was on offer in DA:O much more than in DA2--not because of what was added (and to be sure, there are some cool additions), but what was taken away.

Also am I the only one whom the companions of DA:O stopped talking to? Except empty dialog loops along the lines of
Me: "Let´s talk"
NPC:" What about"
Me:"Let´s stopp talking"
Which for me was not really better than the way DA2 handles it if  the NPC in question has nothing new to say.

I think that's normal.

I have no problems with "the way DA2 handles it if  the NPC in question has nothing new to say"; in fact, it's much better. The problem is simply that they have rather less to say this time around, and so much of what they do have is just a string of propositions you can agree with for friendship or disagree with for rivalry. That's not what I consider a conversation to be.

Modifié par spacepopeadventures, 22 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[Sabriana]

@ spacepopeadventures

I provided the link to the thread in question in this very thread. First page, last post

[Cutlass Jack]

Addai67 wrote...
(husband)

All I can say is.... my expectations were set very low for DA2 based on what happened with Awakening and DLC.  And I was actually pleasantly suprised by 90% of it.   (I really expected something like a double sized Awakening type game with a voiced PC.    And fared much better than that).

Am I alone in that reaction? 

Your (husband) is not alone. Awakening and the DLC were pretty bad and wasn't that thrilled with what I originally heard about this game either. My expectations were quite low. But I enjoyed it quite a bit.

[Wittand25]

spacepopeadventures wrote...


Got a link? (If it was posted earlier, I missed it.)

I'm interested in what he has to say, but I don't think any of it will change the fact that I liked what was on offer in DA:O much more than in DA2--not because of what was added (and to be sure, there are some cool additions), but what was taken away.

http://social.biowar...ex/7154827&lf=8
Here that is the link from before, now with a filter that only shows posts by Bioware employees.

[spacepopeadventures]

JaegerBane wrote...

True, the majority of changes made were for good reason and done well. That's kind what I was getting at when I mentioned that, in DA2, the bad outweighed the good rather than vice versa. There were still elements of fixing stuff that wasn't broken in ME2, though - notably, the OTT focus added on things like the Vanguard, to the point where it became a one-trick-pony, the inability to remove helmets on the fly, leading to weird things like Shep drinking and kissing though his faceplate, the attempt at cover-based mechanics for vehicles resulting in a hovertank that was more fragile than Shepard himself etc. Granted, these were side issues that didn't interfere with the core game itself, but that's my point - in DA2, the stuff being fixed that wasn't broken affected the most basic aspects of the game.

None of that stuff sounds like "fixing" to me. The helmet thing is a pure brain fart, oversight, or laziness; I can't see a dev claiming it's actually better for Shepard to kiss and drink through a helmet. One-dimensional classes also don't seem like an attempt to fix anything--it's just poor class design. And Mako combat was just as cover-based, if not more so (at least against Thresher Maws, the only enemies that mattered).

Still, I do take your point, in general.

We saw similar stuff in Awakening aswell. Of course the reviews of Awakening was very hit and miss, yeah, but there were plenty of things in Awakening that were changed for no good reason. It didn't sink the game altogether, though - it was still fun. Not as good as it could be, but you can't fault it's ambition.

This wasn;t the case with DA2. It's a lot easier to accept oversights when they occur on minor parts of the game rther than at the very core.... such as seeing the same damn cave being used to represent the location of several main quests.

Like you, I liked Awakening just fine. Not just because the bothersome bits were relatively minor, but because a lot of the less satisfying changes, like the dialogue system, seemed to be shortcuts that required less effort than the alternative (though maybe we're talking about different oversights here). I can excuse shortcuts--especially in an expansion--if they're necessary and sensible ones. The problem I have with bits of DA2 is that it seems like it wouldn't have been any more time-consuming or expensive to get it right, or the shortcut taken isn't a sensible one.

[spacepopeadventures]

Wittand25 wrote...

http://social.biowar...ex/7154827&lf=8
Here that is the link from before, now with a filter that only shows posts by Bioware employees.

Thanks.

Meh, it doesn't change my mind. The bit that shocked me--re: connection to followers and rambling conversations--is pretty much free-standing. He seems to mean exactly what he says there.

[Night Prowler76]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

The tone and wording of DG's response, no matter who you feel deserved it, was unprofessional and a poor decision on his part.

The truth is never unprofessional and never a poor choice.  Additionaly, it was hilarious.

Telling someone "too bad" after you have purchased their product is UNPROFESSIONAL, and it is a POOR CHOICE of words if you intend to keep them as a customer, you arent even good at being a BioDrone, please take some lessons from Persephone or something.

There was nothing hilarious about it, or you.

[Night Prowler76]

Oh btw anyone looking to buy DA2 on the PC, its 33% off this weekend, I just got the email from EA lol, its so good, why wouldnt they just keep charging full price for it?

[Stardusk78]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Oh btw anyone looking to buy DA2 on the PC, its 33% off this weekend, I just got the email from EA lol, its so good, why wouldnt they just keep charging full price for it?

33%?

Do you have a link?

[Wittand25]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Oh btw anyone looking to buy DA2 on the PC, its 33% off this weekend, I just got the email from EA lol, its so good, why wouldnt they just keep charging full price for it?

Doesn't Valve quite regularly have half price weekends even for some of their brand new releases ?

Modifié par Wittand25, 22 avril 2011 - 08:28 .

[JaegerBane]

spacepopeadventures wrote...
None of that stuff sounds like "fixing" to me. The helmet thing is a pure brain fart, oversight, or laziness; I can't see a dev claiming it's actually better for Shepard to kiss and drink through a helmet. One-dimensional classes also don't seem like an attempt to fix anything--it's just poor class design. And Mako combat was just as cover-based, if not more so (at least against Thresher Maws, the only enemies that mattered).

Still, I do take your point, in general.

By 'fixing stuff that isn't broke', I mean anything that worked just fine previously - that is, no-one complained about it and it didn't frustrate - that was replaced by something new that actually made it worse. So in the case of helmets, I'm more talking about the armour system in general. Let's face it, I don't recall anyone disliking the fact Shep wore armour suits, or his squadmates, for that matter. Regarding classes, I believe the idea was to make them more distinct.... but the achieved this in a substandard way, by forcing more restrictions on the classes. And the Mako combat felt more like controlling a tank - cover was an element but not to the extent where getting shot out of cover was virtually prelude to reload.

The general theme is that they're changes that no-one actually asked for but enacted anyway. That's the situation that seems to the recurring feature.

Like you, I liked Awakening just fine. Not just because the bothersome bits were relatively minor, but because a lot of the less satisfying changes, like the dialogue system, seemed to be shortcuts that required less effort than the alternative (though maybe we're talking about different oversights here). I can excuse shortcuts--especially in an expansion--if they're necessary and sensible ones. The problem I have with bits of DA2 is that it seems like it wouldn't have been any more time-consuming or expensive to get it right, or the shortcut taken isn't a sensible one.

Good point - Awakening's duff changes seemed to be made for expediency. On the other hand, many of DA2's issues also seemed to be made out of expediency. The massive re-use of maps - to the extent that the entire game takes place over an area that was no larger than Denerim - was presumably made because the resources simply weren't there to do more. Same goes for lesser interactions, generic loot and storyline that effectively didn't vary. I can't think of that many rubbish changes made that actually needed more time to implement than the former.

Of course, there was that Act 3 Varric companion quest, which starts like it's a mix of FEAR 2's high school level and VTM: Bloodlines' Haunted Hotel sidequest... and ended with a singularly daft boss encounter that didn't make sense and was never properly explained. They could just as easily used other assets in the game and made it far better. In that case, it was just poorly thought-out.

[Alex Kershaw]

Why would it take a miracle for me to buy future DA games? Because DA2 was rubbish and Laidlaw thinks it's vastly superior to Origins. No wall of text necessary.

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 22 avril 2011 - 09:25 .

[toggled]

Well, I agree with a lot of the OP's points. Specifically, I believe that the only thing more disheartening than Dragon Age 2 has been Bioware's reaction to the legions of disappointed fans. Long time Bioware fans were horrified when certain Bioware employees (you know who you are) engaged in groupthink and denial and proceeded to blame the fans for not liking the game.

[Lumikki]

TUHD wrote...

My points now...
- I am a worried fan/customer. I understand that if I were about the only one worried, I'd have no say in it. But come on, if only already over half of the posters on the Internet aren't satisfied with the way DA2 went, that should tell you SOMETHING how to approach your customers?

I'm not worried at all. Some customers allways whine like a pig.

- Those forums. I know that different kinds of people come here - but my personal golden rule is 'Live and let live'. Flamers on both sides ('pro' and 'anti') are personally attacking people because of their valid opinions....

Yeah, people seem to have hard time to accept peoples different taste of games. They seem to assume that they own taste is the only valid one.

- Interviews. (Indirectly) Insulting customers is a great way to ****** people off and drive them away from your company. Laidlaw, I am mostly looking at you - but also Zeschuk and others.

Hehe, I agree, it's bad for business.

- Replies on PMs and emails. I've had several interactions with Bioware-staff now on those forums, and while some were pretty neutral (John Epler, I might not like what you say and what you mod from time to time, but at least when requested to look at certain threads you look neutral at it), some are overtly hostile. Note to David Gaider: next time you tell me 'to suck it up, princess', check back whether your collague hasn't already complied with an request. I don't take kindly to such PMs.

What you gonna do, do more this kind of posts in they forum untill you get banned. You get my point.
If you want more interaction and directly with people, you need to suck it up and take the bad too.

My point is, every human is just human. If they get hostile treatment, they usually response same way. Companies employees tries to avoid been hostile, but they are still just humans, not robots who smile to you while you ****** on they face.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 avril 2011 - 12:49 .

[Ariella]

David's listed as a mod because he's a Bioware employee and immediately gets mod privilages, however he's always acted on these forums less like a moderator and more like the head writer of Dragon Age.

Reading his ENTIRE post as to why he didn't writer Anders and why Anders was written in a different direction the context makes sense, and he's make it clear since Awakenings that we're not going back to the same kind of camp dialogue in there was in Origins. After being asked why the 350th time I think I'd be a little pissy too.

Interestingly enough in the same thread Mr. Gaider revisits the concept originally quoted about not feeling connected to NPC party members:

Considering, however, that a game like BG2 where people still felt plenty connected to party members even though you couldn't click on them at all and had no control over when they spoke to you, I'm not certain the issue here isn't one of expectation rather than execution. Not that execution couldn't improve, sure, but some people seem to equate lots of dialogue to emotional connection... and I'm not sure they're as connected as they seem to think.

http://social.biowar...index/7154827/1
Warning this is in the spoiler sections

Anyway, David is Ser Pounce A Lot compared to some writers I know being protective. You think you were insulted TUHD try this kind of thing with JMS or Harlen Ellison, Then you'll know what insulted is.

[John Epler]

Half dozen or so bans and warnings handed out. Perhaps some of you are of the impression that these discussion forums are designed so that you can score points off of your fellow posters through insults, ad hominems and strawmanning.

They are not. They are designed to foster and encourage discussion and feedback, to allow fans and critics of the game alike to discuss their points, talk about Dragon Age 2 and other BioWare games and to act as an informal conduit of information to the developers.

Those of you who wish to discuss and debate with your fellow posters, will, as always, be welcome, so long as you remain respectful towards each other and follow the Terms of Service. And once again, this applies regardless of what your feelings are on DA2.

[Kajan451]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

All I can say is.... my expectations were set very low for DA2 based on what happened with Awakening and DLC.  And I was actually pleasantly suprised by 90% of it.   (I really expected something like a double sized Awakening type game with a voiced PC.    And fared much better than that).

Am I alone in that reaction?

Actually Awakenings was pretty bad, but i had hopes they just put out some half a... hearted Addon and would save they good stuff for DA2.

DA2 is better than Awakenings was, but i can't say DA2 was meeting my expectations as i expected them to bring their A game for DA2.

Ariella wrote...

David's listed as a mod because he's a Bioware employee and immediately gets mod privilages, however he's always acted on these forums less like a moderator and more like the head writer of Dragon Age.

Reading his ENTIRE post as to why he didn't writer Anders and why Anders was written in a different direction the context makes sense, and he's make it clear since Awakenings that we're not going back to the same kind of camp dialogue in there was in Origins. After being asked why the 350th time I think I'd be a little pissy too.

No offense, i worked for AOL as Forum Scout and i was a Mod for a couple big Roleplay Forums. Being asked the same thing over and over again, is NORMAL. And yes, even i got pissy at times, but then i would get up go for a walk and then return and post a Link to another reply already.

And do you know why? Because as Mod i represent the Company / Forum.. and i am not a private person who can be pissy and ****y about stuff. People see those Fancy Nametags and see you are a representive. They take what you say more seriously because you are kind of speaking from an elevated point.

In Gaiders Case... he even flaunts his title as Lead Writer. Which means he does not only represent the Forum as Mod, but he does Represent those who made the decisions in this games. He represents the core team. Not the poor programmers who have no influence on it... or some writer who is hired to write some character... and who does have only a minor voice in how things are done. No he flaunts the title of LEAD Writer.

And as such his words are measured much more and valuded more. In such a position you don't go around and insult people or act pissy at them. Because it represents the Team, the Company  badly. Noone cares that he might claims he is posting as a private person. Because he isn't on this forum, as long as he goes around telling everyone who is, what his position was and how much influence he had on things.

You can't go around and expect people to listen to you and sunbath in their praise and at the same time claim you are your own person and not an official when you decided to be pissy at people.

Thats not how it works. People see both and judge them as both. And acts like that just serve to make people see how the Lead Writer is rude to people. They don't care if there were 350 similar questions. They don't track down every post of the Lead Writer to see how he behaved in the last 20 threads. They come to this board and see that ONE post and thats the one that sticks with them.

Thats why you walk away if you flaunt an official position and take a breath, suck it up and swallow it down.. and then smile into their faces while you think your part.


You just can't go around and insult people as long as they know who you are. Its why i would have other accounts to be a private person. Some people would know who i was when i posted with them, but those people were so much around they would see why i acted the way i acted. They weren't some strangers who wouldn't read every thread on the board and would come to this one thread finding someone with official credentials to be pissy and rude.

There is a reason why people say you shouldn't mix Buisness with Private.

[neppakyo]

JohnEpler wrote...

Half dozen or so bans and warnings handed out. Perhaps some of you are of the impression that these discussion forums are designed so that you can score points off of your fellow posters through insults, ad hominems and strawmanning.
.

I'm not up on my internet lingo, but what exactly is strawmanning? Just a bit curious is all.

And not to take up too much text space, pretty much agree with the OP points, and quite dissappointed with DG's comment on the party camp. I loved that, it added a lot to the game. Also, no matter the context of a message, someone representing a company should never be insulting to the customer (unless said customer is extremely rude to them first, then I can see a comment like that)

So far with me, ME3 may be the last bioware game I purchase. I am not buy any DLC's whatso ever (DA2,ME3), as I am sick and tired of the low low quality stuff being released. For every Lair of the Shadow Broker released, theres 100 crap DLC's.

I will be very leery with the next installment of a game in the DA universe, will wait a few weeks to check out the general consensus and reviews before I consider dropping money down.

As to the 33% off weekend, I received the same email. Also at futureshop DA2 is now $49.99CDN for the PC, and they're having a weekend sale of $10 off, so its now $39. xbox/ps3 is still full price there, but $49.99 with the $10 off.

[Kajan451]

neppakyo wrote...

I'm not up on my internet lingo, but what exactly is strawmanning? Just a bit curious is all.

Not an Internet Lingo at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Everwarden]

neppakyo wrote...

I'm not up on my internet lingo, but what exactly is strawmanning? Just a bit curious is all.

Not internet lingo. It's a logical fallacy wherein one tackles the opponent's position by misrepresenting it and building a ridiculous, false version (the straw man) and then soundly defeating the straw man of their own construction without actually addressing the true meat of the opposing argument. 

[neppakyo]

Everwarden wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

I'm not up on my internet lingo, but what exactly is strawmanning? Just a bit curious is all.

Not internet lingo. It's a logical fallacy wherein one tackles the opponent's position by misrepresenting it and building a ridiculous, false version (the straw man) and then soundly defeating the straw man of their own construction without actually addressing the true meat of the opposing argument. 

Ahh, makes sense. Heh, thought it was one of those silly internet things. Too much IRC, so i tend to ignore people who cant fathom a completely worded sentence.