807 réponses à ce sujet

[wizardryforever]

ReinaHW wrote...

In the Thief DLC in ME2, if playing as female Shepard - which I do since the male Shepard is boring and has a horrible voice - there were a lot of breast shots in the opening part of that DLC while heading to the party.

After about the fifth shot or so I wondered if the developers badly needed to take a cold shower.

Throwing sex appeal in a game may sell, but I frankly feel it's tacky, unneeded and shows how much the industry, and the gamers who demand such things, need to grow up.

Those shots are in there as a male too, so don't be so quick to blame.  The camera shots focus on Shepard's chest, not the off chance that you're playing a female and have breasts.  Seriously, blaming every camera angle on sex appeal just makes you seem like a prude.  Sometimes a camera shot is just a camera shot..  Besides, as I recall there's only one or two of those in the whole game, and the scene during Kasumi's loyalty is the most memorable.

Also do note that sex appeal is grown up.  If it wasn't, we'd be restricted to flirting and kissing.  You know, G-rated.

And then there's skimpy armour, does armour that barely provides protection to a woman wearing it really sound like a logical move? Breasts don't make for additional protection, so skimpy armour is yet another prime example of how badly the industry needs to grow up.

Whatever next, crotch shots? Female leads and support characters should be respectfully done, feminine, but not done as sex appeal, but as well written characters with wonderful character development while still having their own personalities.
I quite liked Ashley, she was very much the kind of 'You anger me and I will kill you' aspect while having a sensitive side in regards to her family history and her clear love for her sister. And Tali in ME1 was nicely done, she came across as someone who was still very young, but she was learning about herself and what was in the universe.

Sex appeal might work for the kind of males who can't keep their hands out of their underwear, but it's tacky, unneeded. It only gives those who hate video games more fuel for the fire.

Oh, and skimpy armor on males is A-okay?  Jacob and Thane are just as sexualized as Miranda and Samara.  I just have to laugh at all of the people who only see sex appeal as appealing to guys.  It's more blatant, but the appeal for females (and gay guys) is there as well.  People seem quick to deplore any female in attractive clothing (regardless of environment) as being pure fanservice, even if it does not change her personality or even if it's a key part of her personality.  The thing is, when people do that, they're judging them on their looks.  The very thing that they say fanservice encourages.  I find that ironic.

[ReinaHW]

Large bulges/bumps don't determine the personality of a person, they're just body parts. The person within is what matters the most.
A well written character with a well defined personality can be more interesting than some character who simply looks great, but has all the personality of a dead fly.

Using sex appeal to make a character seem more interesting than they really are shows immaturity.

[FataliTensei]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

... but I need to get this out of my system.

The one thing that annoys me most is that game developers often assume the only people that play their games are young, horny males who have never had a girlfriend and probably will never get one.  Female characters, if present at all, are frequently given over-exaggerated "hot" bodies jammed into revealing and too-tight outfits.

Bioware is no exception, but to their credit they often made a joke out of it to mock their cheap pandering to a seventeen-year-old's erection and backed off on the whole boobies thing when it wasn't appropriate.  For example, take ME1: it had an entire race of sexy babes, but Bioware was able to get away with this because they poked fun at the trope and also gave the asari an interesting culture and deep characters.  There was only one case of extreme cleavage (Matriarch Boobnezia Benezia), and none of the female leads were overtly sexualized (FemShep and Ashley especially were pretty plain in their body-types and never wore anything incredibly revealing apart from certain types of armor that had a tendency to ride up the crack).  So I let them get away with it.

And then came ME2.  Suddenly, boobs, boobs everywhere (plus a few manly bits this go-round: check out Jacob and Thane.  Specifically, check out Jacob's butt, which really is as bad as Miranda's save for it got less screen time).  Now, I didn't complain too much because for the most part it fit the characters and again they mocked themselves for doing it (Miranda's buttshots and her encounter with a certain Eclipse commando).  It only really got stupid when people started running around with naught but a breather mask, and at the very least all the characters were interesting enough as people that I was able to look past the cleavage.  However, Tali's reduction into a "shrinking violet" type of character set off alarm bells in my head, and the presentation of all female characters in Genesis (the PS3 comic) would have made me punch Casey Hudson in the teeth had I not been able to transfer my blame to the Dark Horse team, who tend to kind of suck anyway.  At least they didn't try to sex up FemShep apart from some really agressive flirting which I usually avoided or skipped over anyway.  So again, Bioware got a pass.  A very shaky pass, but at least it wasn't Soul Calibur or Dead or Alive.

But now, looking at the new information trickling in about ME3, I am beginning to suspect things are going to get worse (perhaps better for those of you who play alone and with one hand).  I know we know next to nothing about ME3, but Ashley's new look (sans bun, bigger ******, and a tight body suit) plus their comment about Jack being softened and matured raised a few red flags.  The PS3M article, which I shouldn't pay attention to because it was written by a bunch of very randy morons who didn't bother to do their homework, only made matters worse by reminding everyone how hot and sexy all the female characters are.

Listen, fellas: Jack and Ashley were cool because they didn't conform to the role of typical female lead.  Now, I'm hopeful these two characters will retain their unique (albeit somewhat abrasive) personalities, but after Tali...  I really don't know.

Yeah, I know I'm complaining too much.  But honestly, one of the reasons I enjoy the Mass Effect series is that I can play it without feeling like the developers think I'm some sort of half-wit mouth-breather.  I mean, seriously Bioware, you don't have to objectify your characters when your fans do it for you.  Put what you do best--your characters--first, and save the energy wasted on over-abundant sex appeal for something more important.

And yeah, I know I probably shouldn't be worrying.  I'm sure ME3 will be an awesome game, but nonetheless, consider me mildly concerned.

EDIT: Fixed a typo.  Seriously, "Asley?"  Boy oh boy, I don't even...

I totally agree, the objectification of characters in ME2 was just tupid and immature, but it's the audience bioware is pandering to now so we had best get used to it.

[corporal doody]

OH I agree!!! cuz everyone that looks at breasts in ANY form is immature. Shame shame bioware! why you're no better than a fashion magazine!! add in the violence and you're no better than the local news or prime-time TV show on a broadcast network...with all that suggested sex and violence AND BRESSESSESSS!! SHAME!

Modifié par corporal doody, 24 avril 2011 - 05:59 .

[stu117]

i dont fully understand the negatives to having "the goods" be on display in a game? theres not alot supporting the arguement not having them from a buisness standpoint. While having them may attract more people to buy. I for one will never complain about to much cleavage/whatever.
makes sense from a buisness standpoint though i dont know of ppl that buy mass effect for the boob/donk appeal

[Saaziel]

If it was just This game or That game , it would be fine.

Much like junk food. Its great once in a while , every day though is an other question altogether. Taken in a vacuum, an emphasis on sex isn't bad in and of it self, however nothing is in a vacuum , ever , not even nothing.

Its hard nowdays to even open up a window without having ******, arses and 200 pound steroid addicts shoved in our faces. "Its only fantasy " you say ; Except people lost sight of reality and they come to idealize fantasies. "Its what people want!" ; No . Much like people want food but buy junk food, they've become addicted. "So what ?, its their choices." Again , in a vacuum ; No problem. You can be a big fat perv if that's what life means to you. But when your cholesterol clogged heart stops at 100 km/hour on the highway splattering your corpse on the pavement , or when you roid rage your way to the murder suicide of your wife and kids ; Then i get to pay for the forensics, police /fire-fighter reports , clean up & rehabilitations (If any), and it becomes my problem.

Mass effect started off as something that's "Down to earth" (Pun intended). Since then however ,its become too mainstream <Insert mainstream glasses here> , and its ****** & ass galore . Again , "junk food for thought" not an issue within some boundaries . If the storytelling keeps up , not an issue for me : But i can understand why people are upset /concerned when they'd thought Mass Effect would be something different.

Short version : Its EA's fault.

Modifié par Saaziel, 24 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[gosimmons]

stu117 wrote...

i dont fully understand the negatives to having "the goods" be on display in a game? theres not alot supporting the arguement not having them from a buisness standpoint. While having them may attract more people to buy. I for one will never complain about to much cleavage/whatever.
makes sense from a buisness standpoint though i dont know of ppl that buy mass effect for the boob/donk appeal

A problem about it is when they're displayed..
Most agree that there can be a time and a place for high heels and revealing outfits. But not in a hazardous environment.
And "the goods" shouldn't be the focus of the camera during emotional conversations.

Saaziel wrote...

Mass effect started off as something
that's "Down to earth" (Pun intended). Since then however ,its become
too mainstream <Insert mainstream glasses here>

Heh, I still hope they can cut back on the rule of of cool in ME3, and that the atmosphere ME1 established blends in well with the next game.

Modifié par gosimmons, 24 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[someguy1231]

laecraft wrote...

I disliked the "male gaze" camera myself. Each time I got a close-up of Miranda's body parts, I was reminded that I'm not the target audience for this game. It breaks the immersion somewhat badly.

And I suppose the camera angles on Jacob also broke your immersion? Funny how most people who complain about the depiction of Miranda or Samara conveniently fail to bring up Jacob or Thane. Double standard much? 

As for this topic as a whole, sexy outfits and sexualized characters don't bother me. I honestly think most people here are exaggerating or overreacting. A two-second ass shot in a 30 hour game is a deal-breaker for you?

Give Bioware credit for making the sexualized characters well-written with deep personalities. Anyone who dismisses Jack, Miranda, or Samara as nothing but fanservice characters solely because of how they look is being just as shallow as they accuse them of being, if not more so. And if you're familiar with their characterization, you'll see if makes sense for them to wear what they do. Miranda was genetically to engineered to be perfect and knows it, and given her narcissitic personality she won't hesitate to use that to her advantage. Samara is from an alien culture that doesn't have any of our hang ups about sex or modesty. Jack, well, she's badass enough that she doesn't need a shirt.

Regarding the whole "hazardous environments" objection, I never found myself in an environment during the game where exposed skin would automatically be hazardous. The closest was that geth space station, which only lacked air so breath masks sufficed, or that planet with the deadly sunlight, and that still affects Shepherd so armor wouldn't have helped. And for the last time, there's never a mission in which your squadmates are exposed to the vacuum of space! It seems everytime this subject comes up, someone claims that "these outfits wouldn't work in space!" Well, that's a moot point, because they're never IN space!

Anyway, I find that people's opinions on this depends alot on whether they look at it from an in-game perspective ("That's what the characters choose to wear.") or a meta-perspective ("That's what Bioware put them in"). People who take the latter viewpoint, it seems, are much more likely to dislike sexy outfits. Now, i'll freely admit that it's pretty obvious Miranda and Samara were designed with the intention of being sexually appealing. Jack too, for people with more "interesting" tastes. But how is that a bad thing? "Fanservice" is not a dirty word! And as I pointed out earlier, the male characters get this too, especially Jacob and Thane.

And please stop trying to equate titillation with immaturity or "13 year old boys". That just says far more about you than the people you're criticizing.

Modifié par someguy1231, 24 avril 2011 - 11:04 .

[Elvis_Mazur]

Slidell505 wrote...

Cool beans. Actually, to be completely honest, I read the first few sentences scrolled down to see how long it was, said "Yeah, **** that." and posted cool beans. Also I think I've read this thread before. Many times, actually.

Lol. Excatly what I did, except the beans part.

[gosimmons]

someguy1231 wrote...

And if you're familiar with their characterization, you'll see if makes sense for them to wear what they do. Miranda was genetically to engineered to be perfect and knows it, and given her narcissitic personality she won't hesitate to use that to her advantage. Samara is from an alien culture that doesn't have any of our hang ups about sex or modesty. Jack, well, she's badass enough that she doesn't need a shirt.

Not trying to bash the characters, just pointing out an aspect of the game that's bothered me. And I'm still not sure what people mean when they say Miranda uses her outfit to her advantage. She never tries seducing anyone, and skin tight spandex and heels actually look more restrictive than light armor.. And you have to admit there's no real reason Jack can't wear a shirt. ^^ And to be honest, I always thought just saying asari were a different culture is a bit of a cop-out.

Regarding the whole "hazardous environments" objection, I never found myself in an environment during the game where exposed skin would automatically be hazardous. The closest was that geth space station, which only lacked air so breath masks sufficed, or that planet with the deadly sunlight, and that still affects Shepherd so armor wouldn't have helped. And for the last time, there's never a mission in which your squadmates are exposed to the vacuum of space! It seems everytime this subject comes up, someone claims that "these outfits wouldn't work in space!" Well, that's a moot point, because they're never IN space!

I would of thought gunfights and the planet with the poisonous atmosphere were hazardous. And wasn't the Derelict Reaper in space when they jumped off of it? 

 "Fanservice" is not a dirty word! And as I pointed out earlier, the male characters get this too, especially Jacob and Thane.

Doesn't necesarrily make it a good thing.

Modifié par gosimmons, 24 avril 2011 - 11:46 .

[AdmiralCheez]

horvagab wrote...

Reduction? Maybe I'm wrong here, but in ME1 Tali's characterization (like that of Wrex and Liara) was about 60% defined by her race. Good with machines, hates the Geth. That was about 50% (IMO) of her charcter. BEsides this, she fought t he good fight, and.... can't remember much else from her in ME1, to be honest.

EDIT: So by becoming a badass leader of a Quarian team, she was reduced to a shrinking violet. I mean, almost any change to her character is an addition, methinks.

Yeah, she was a bit of a walking codex in that one, but one of her few defining traits was that she was self-sufficient.  I get a little annoyed when a formerly independent character goes all damsel-in-distress on me.  I liked all the other aspects of her character development, though.

I also cannot believe this thread is still going.

[jellobell]

someguy1231 wrote...

And I suppose the camera angles on Jacob also broke your immersion? Funny how most people who complain about the depiction of Miranda or Samara conveniently fail to bring up Jacob or Thane. Double standard much? 

Actually they did indeed, though it was more a problem with Shepard's creepy dialogue. It made talking to Jacob intensely uncomfortable, because my character was being railroaded into being attracted to someone I wasn't attracted to. I agree that the camera's fondness for Miranda is immersion-breaking for Femshep. It's the same for my malesheps who romance anyone other than Miranda. He just wouldn't be blatantly eyeing her ass like that. I don't have a problem with it, but only if it's done when you're romancing the character, no matter what gender they are.

[Legbiter]

someguy1231 wrote...

And I suppose the camera angles on Jacob also broke your immersion? Funny how most people who complain about the depiction of Miranda or Samara conveniently fail to bring up Jacob or Thane. Double standard much? 

As for this topic as a whole, sexy outfits and sexualized characters don't bother me. I honestly think most people here are exaggerating or overreacting. A two-second ass shot in a 30 hour game is a deal-breaker for you?

Agree. I think the dainty fair maidens here protest a little too much.

What we're seeing here is a nasty piece of chick logic/social dynamic where a group of women rally to bring down a fellow female transgressor who's overstepped the bounds of their little clique. In this case it's a pixelated character in a video game but this constant low-level sniping in any group of women can be absolutely brutal.

[AdmiralCheez]

Legbiter wrote...

Agree. I think the dainty fair maidens here protest a little too much.

Actually, the Jacob crotch shots and Thane's man-cleavage annoyed me as much as Miranda's booty.

What we're seeing here is a nasty piece of chick logic/social dynamic where a group of women rally to bring down a fellow female transgressor who's overstepped the bounds of their little clique. In this case it's a pixelated character in a video game but this constant low-level sniping in any group of women can be absolutely brutal.

What we're seeing here is a fellow proving he doesn't know sh*t about women.

[Legbiter]

someguy1231 wrote...

Anyway, I find that people's opinions on this depends alot on whether they look at it from an in-game perspective ("That's what the characters choose to wear.") or a meta-perspective ("That's what Bioware put them in"). People who take the latter viewpoint, it seems, are much more likely to dislike sexy outfits. Now, i'll freely admit that it's pretty obvious Miranda and Samara were designed with the intention of being sexually appealing. Jack too, for people with more "interesting" tastes. But how is that a bad thing? "Fanservice" is not a dirty word! And as I pointed out earlier, the male characters get this too, especially Jacob and Thane.

Another thing to add is that if you want a character to appeal to men in a sexual way then overt visual cues is how you do it. Especially in a medium like a video game. That's just how we're wired, so not a bug, but a feature. Why else do women spend hours on makeup and/or strategically padding various bits here and there (push-up bras for instance). Then they turn around and call what Bioware does "objectification", but if it gives them tingles then it's just tasteful erotica.

[AdmiralCheez]

Tasteful erotica = ME1 love scenes.

Immature pandering = Ass shots and dry-humping.

[jellobell]

Legbiter wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

Anyway, I find that people's opinions on this depends alot on whether they look at it from an in-game perspective ("That's what the characters choose to wear.") or a meta-perspective ("That's what Bioware put them in"). People who take the latter viewpoint, it seems, are much more likely to dislike sexy outfits. Now, i'll freely admit that it's pretty obvious Miranda and Samara were designed with the intention of being sexually appealing. Jack too, for people with more "interesting" tastes. But how is that a bad thing? "Fanservice" is not a dirty word! And as I pointed out earlier, the male characters get this too, especially Jacob and Thane.

Another thing to add is that if you want a character to appeal to men in a sexual way then overt visual cues is how you do it. Especially in a medium like a video game. That's just how we're wired, so not a bug, but a feature. Why else do women spend hours on makeup and/or strategically padding various bits here and there (push-up bras for instance). Then they turn around and call what Bioware does "objectification", but if it gives them tingles then it's just tasteful erotica.

And you've once again completely ignored both Cheez's and my posts. WE DON'T ENJOY SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION. PERIOD. Maybe other women feel differently. I dunno. I guarantee that other men do not share your views on how men are "wired", regardless of what you seem to think.

I'm not arguing that Bioware should put Miranda in a baggy turtleneck. All I'm saying is that the ass shots and the battle-spandex was a bit annoying. I get it, it's Miri's "thing" and as long as BW continue to write good characters I'm not going to be too troubled about it. This does not mean I enjoy Jacob's crotch shots, and being called a hypocrite gets on my nerves.

Modifié par jellobell, 25 avril 2011 - 12:59 .

[Dave666]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

Agree. I think the dainty fair maidens here protest a little too much.

Actually, the Jacob crotch shots and Thane's man-cleavage annoyed me as much as Miranda's booty.

What we're seeing here is a nasty piece of chick logic/social dynamic where a group of women rally to bring down a fellow female transgressor who's overstepped the bounds of their little clique. In this case it's a pixelated character in a video game but this constant low-level sniping in any group of women can be absolutely brutal.

What we're seeing here is a fellow proving he doesn't know sh*t about women and is going to spend a great deal of his life alone.

Fixed that for you Cheez. 

[Legbiter]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tasteful erotica = ME1 love scenes.

Immature pandering = Ass shots and dry-humping.

In other words if it gives you tingles it's the first, if not see number 2.

Personally I liked ME 2 better in this regard, in ME 1 the only thing missing from the romance scene was a guy with a ponytail playing the saxophone while you're getting it on.

[Legbiter]

jellobell wrote...

And you've once again completely ignored both Cheez's and my posts. WE DON'T ENJOY SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION. PERIOD.

Lighten up Francis.

[Dave666]

Legbiter wrote...

jellobell wrote...

And you've once again completely ignored both Cheez's and my posts. WE DON'T ENJOY SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION. PERIOD.

Lighten up Francis.

Grow up Nancy.

[AdmiralCheez]

Legbiter wrote...
In other words if it gives you tingles it's the first, if not see number 2.

Personally I liked ME 2 better in this regard, in ME 1 the only thing missing from the romance scene was a guy with a ponytail playing the saxophone while you're getting it on.

Okay, so you'd rather have a love scene that's about as gratifying as a normal conversation with the character anyway.  I get it.  Clearly, staring at a clothed ass for five hours is more satisfying than being rewarded with a bare one for being patient.

And yes, Liara's glorious blue ass turns me on.  Ashley's ass ain't bad, either, but Liara gets bonus points for being blue.  Miranda...  Well, I'd like it if it weren't forced on me, you know?

It's like the difference between being served cookies fresh from the oven and having someone pin you and cram them down your throat.

[gosimmons]

Legbiter wrote...

Agree. I think the dainty fair maidens here protest a little too much.

What we're seeing here is a nasty piece of chick logic/social dynamic where a group of women rally to bring down a fellow female transgressor who's overstepped the bounds of their little clique. In this case it's a pixelated character in a video game but this constant low-level sniping in any group of women can be absolutely brutal.

But.. I'm a guy...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

It's like the difference between
being served cookies fresh from the oven and having someone pin you and
cram them down your throat.

That's pretty accurate actually. lol

Modifié par gosimmons, 25 avril 2011 - 01:44 .

[CrispyFrog]

You people always way overreact to these types of things. 

Bioware is a video game company, its true not every gamer is a overly horny 17 year old male (such as myself), however, there are a LOT of gamers who are. Reducing cleavage isn't going to make the game any less badass to anyone, but a game has got to have sex appeal these days, and telling Bioware, the company that made Mass Effect and Dragon Age (two of the biggest franchises on Fox News' naughty list) that they need to tone down their sexuality is kind of ridiculous.

Also, Ashley's boobs aren't that much bigger, and I'm sure she'll be just as headstrong (same with Jack).

And another thing, I really hope Bioware will change the female model from the WAY overly arched back thing that persists in ME2.