85 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

- Archangel - wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

wth kind of rpg players are you guys? every rpg since the beginning of time was based on numbers. wth kind of carebear island crap is this?

Oh you used the term carebear...your e-peen just grew 5 inches.

Yeah, well, you called people that play MMO's and/or people that min/max "kiddies" (all those 11-year-olds who studied math and statistics in college, I guess). So, how much does calling someone a "kiddie" make YOUR e-peen grow?  Hypocrisy much?

[Wolff Laarcen]

soteria wrote...
Hypocrisy much?

its the new black; everybody's wearing it.

[Viz79]

What is your problem - combat logs will likely be togglable. If you dont want it, keep it off!

[Blessed Silence]

Wow so much blowhard crap and no reasons behind it ...



And why don't you want one? Besides saying you just don't?

[Mark5477]

- Archangel - wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

wth kind of rpg players are you guys? every rpg since the beginning of time was based on numbers. wth kind of carebear island crap is this?

Oh you used the term carebear...your e-peen just grew 5 inches.

With all due respect. You started by insulting everyone who likes to min/max and then you could not take an insult yourself. This, i believe, is called bigotry and is just plain funny because min/maxing is the farthest thing from "childlike" behaviour that you can have.

A child would not care about any of the technical or analytical aspects of a game. The fact that someone can min/max a complex system means that they are somewhat mature and aparently some actually enjoy squeezing the most of their hobby be it games, cars, or legos. The key here is that people do it because they find it fun and this is after all, a game.

What really funny about your original post is that most people dont like RPG's for the simple reason that they do not have the intelligence or patience to read, analyze and process an RPG type gameplay. Yet, you think that someone who likes to technically analyze a game is somehow more childish than the guy who only plays the surface aspects of the game. Riiiight.

A combat log would be great. I dont plan to use it for playing the normal game because the game is too easy but it could be very useful for anyone modding and testing.

[Osprey39]

GhoXen wrote...

- Archangel - wrote...

I'm not interested in being one of the MMO kiddies who want to turn their character into a walking spreadsheet.

Not every RPG character needs to go through the MMO Min/Max process.

DnD has walking spreadsheets for characters. Dragon Age plans on making a pen&paper RPG based on the game. Min/Max is hardly exclusive to MMOs, nor were MMOs the first.

Yeah, actually MMOs did bring this crap to us.  I don't know how old you are but there was nothing to min/max in D&D back in the day.  There weren't that many variables.  For a melee character, you had armor class, to hit bonus and damage bonus.  That was it.  There were no secret formulae to dissect.  No talents to consider.  You rolled d20 to hit, if you hit you rolled the appropriate damage die for your weapon and added your bonus damage.  You also didn't have 20 different stats on items to consider.  Casters were the same way.  You cast a spell, the target got a saving throw (maybe) and then you rolled for damage.  It was pretty damn simple.

Even in EQ1, there was no min/maxing because Verant didn't tell anybody squat about the game mechanics.  It was all guesswork and I read forums back then as much as I do now and I cannot recall any conversations about what the optimal build was because there were no builds.  Every character of every class was basically the same except for their starting stats which were pretty insignificant and their equipment.  As far as the equipment went, it was more about what you could get than what you should equip because gear was pretty hard to come by relative to the MMOs of today.  Hell, people used to camp a mob spawn for days at a time hoping for the named mob to spawn so that they MIGHT get a certain item.

The first place I remember people talking about things that could be called min/maxing was AC1.  That was the first game where there was enough character customization options to do it.  DAoC also had it but it didn't really get cranked up there until they introduced spellcrafting.

So yeah, I have to say that min/maxing did start with MMOs.  I never got too heavily into playing D&D in my younger days but I played enough to know that the 2nd edition game didn't lend itself to that.  People didn't make characters based strictly on performance.  It was a roleplaying game and people made the kind of characters that they wanted to play or roleplay if you will.  They didn't  play to be more uber than the guy sitting next to them at the table.

[Recycled Human]

It's already been said, but in a game like this where skills and abilities are kinda vague it would be nice to know what the exact effects of your choices at lvl. In nightmre, I'm having to weigh the pros and cons of every choice in order to make sure I don't suddenly miss all the time or do poor damage.



I'm not great at this game but that's what it takes for me to get by; and I'm thrilled with the challenge, I just want to know some specifics...

[Schyzm]

Osprey39 wrote...

GhoXen wrote...

- Archangel - wrote...

I'm not interested in being one of the MMO kiddies who want to turn their character into a walking spreadsheet.

Not every RPG character needs to go through the MMO Min/Max process.

DnD has walking spreadsheets for characters. Dragon Age plans on making a pen&paper RPG based on the game. Min/Max is hardly exclusive to MMOs, nor were MMOs the first.

Yeah, actually MMOs did bring this crap to us.  I don't know how old you are but there was nothing to min/max in D&D back in the day.  There weren't that many variables.  For a melee character, you had armor class, to hit bonus and damage bonus.  That was it.  There were no secret formulae to dissect.  No talents to consider.  You rolled d20 to hit, if you hit you rolled the appropriate damage die for your weapon and added your bonus damage.  You also didn't have 20 different stats on items to consider.  Casters were the same way.  You cast a spell, the target got a saving throw (maybe) and then you rolled for damage.  It was pretty damn simple.

Even in EQ1, there was no min/maxing because Verant didn't tell anybody squat about the game mechanics.  It was all guesswork and I read forums back then as much as I do now and I cannot recall any conversations about what the optimal build was because there were no builds.  Every character of every class was basically the same except for their starting stats which were pretty insignificant and their equipment.  As far as the equipment went, it was more about what you could get than what you should equip because gear was pretty hard to come by relative to the MMOs of today.  Hell, people used to camp a mob spawn for days at a time hoping for the named mob to spawn so that they MIGHT get a certain item.

The first place I remember people talking about things that could be called min/maxing was AC1.  That was the first game where there was enough character customization options to do it.  DAoC also had it but it didn't really get cranked up there until they introduced spellcrafting.

So yeah, I have to say that min/maxing did start with MMOs.  I never got too heavily into playing D&D in my younger days but I played enough to know that the 2nd edition game didn't lend itself to that.  People didn't make characters based strictly on performance.  It was a roleplaying game and people made the kind of characters that they wanted to play or roleplay if you will.  They didn't  play to be more uber than the guy sitting next to them at the table.

thaco called, it says you're a lying son of a ****.

http://www.ugcs.calt...KDD/THAC0.shtml

[Ninjaphrog]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

GhoXen wrote...

I disagree.

AARRRRGHH!  Trollish rage response for no good reason!  RArAARRGHH!  No opionions for you!  RAAAAARRRGHHH!

I hate you....

Be nice to us trolls

b....

[Ninjaphrog]

Osprey39 wrote...

GhoXen wrote...

- Archangel - wrote...

I'm not interested in being one of the MMO kiddies who want to turn their character into a walking spreadsheet.

Not every RPG character needs to go through the MMO Min/Max process.

DnD has walking spreadsheets for characters. Dragon Age plans on making a pen&paper RPG based on the game. Min/Max is hardly exclusive to MMOs, nor were MMOs the first.

Yeah, actually MMOs did bring this crap to us.  I don't know how old you are but there was nothing to min/max in D&D back in the day.  There weren't that many variables.  For a melee character, you had armor class, to hit bonus and damage bonus.  That was it.  There were no secret formulae to dissect.  No talents to consider.  You rolled d20 to hit, if you hit you rolled the appropriate damage die for your weapon and added your bonus damage.  You also didn't have 20 different stats on items to consider.  Casters were the same way.  You cast a spell, the target got a saving throw (maybe) and then you rolled for damage.  It was pretty damn simple.

Even in EQ1, there was no min/maxing because Verant didn't tell anybody squat about the game mechanics.  It was all guesswork and I read forums back then as much as I do now and I cannot recall any conversations about what the optimal build was because there were no builds.  Every character of every class was basically the same except for their starting stats which were pretty insignificant and their equipment.  As far as the equipment went, it was more about what you could get than what you should equip because gear was pretty hard to come by relative to the MMOs of today.  Hell, people used to camp a mob spawn for days at a time hoping for the named mob to spawn so that they MIGHT get a certain item.

The first place I remember people talking about things that could be called min/maxing was AC1.  That was the first game where there was enough character customization options to do it.  DAoC also had it but it didn't really get cranked up there until they introduced spellcrafting.

So yeah, I have to say that min/maxing did start with MMOs.  I never got too heavily into playing D&D in my younger days but I played enough to know that the 2nd edition game didn't lend itself to that.  People didn't make characters based strictly on performance.  It was a roleplaying game and people made the kind of characters that they wanted to play or roleplay if you will.  They didn't  play to be more uber than the guy sitting next to them at the table.

##_Insert_Long_Pointless_Wall_Off_Text_Here_##

[Mark5477]

Osprey39 wrote...

GhoXen wrote...

- Archangel - wrote...

I'm not interested in being one of the MMO kiddies who want to turn their character into a walking spreadsheet.

Not every RPG character needs to go through the MMO Min/Max process.

DnD has walking spreadsheets for characters. Dragon Age plans on making a pen&paper RPG based on the game. Min/Max is hardly exclusive to MMOs, nor were MMOs the first.

Yeah, actually MMOs did bring this crap to us.  I don't know how old you are but there was nothing to min/max in D&D back in the day.  There weren't that many variables.  For a melee character, you had armor class, to hit bonus and damage bonus.  That was it.  There were no secret formulae to dissect.  No talents to consider.  You rolled d20 to hit, if you hit you rolled the appropriate damage die for your weapon and added your bonus damage.  You also didn't have 20 different stats on items to consider.  Casters were the same way.  You cast a spell, the target got a saving throw (maybe) and then you rolled for damage.  It was pretty damn simple.

Even in EQ1, there was no min/maxing because Verant didn't tell anybody squat about the game mechanics.  It was all guesswork and I read forums back then as much as I do now and I cannot recall any conversations about what the optimal build was because there were no builds.  Every character of every class was basically the same except for their starting stats which were pretty insignificant and their equipment.  As far as the equipment went, it was more about what you could get than what you should equip because gear was pretty hard to come by relative to the MMOs of today.  Hell, people used to camp a mob spawn for days at a time hoping for the named mob to spawn so that they MIGHT get a certain item.

The first place I remember people talking about things that could be called min/maxing was AC1.  That was the first game where there was enough character customization options to do it.  DAoC also had it but it didn't really get cranked up there until they introduced spellcrafting.

So yeah, I have to say that min/maxing did start with MMOs.  I never got too heavily into playing D&D in my younger days but I played enough to know that the 2nd edition game didn't lend itself to that.  People didn't make characters based strictly on performance.  It was a roleplaying game and people made the kind of characters that they wanted to play or roleplay if you will.  They didn't  play to be more uber than the guy sitting next to them at the table.

Min/Max began the minute multiclassing was introduced to various games such as DnD, FF (forget which one it was back in the NES days). Honestly, does it matter? If someone finds it fun, then why not let them have it? I am sure the devs already have it.

[Aether99]

- Archangel - wrote...

I'm not interested in being one of the MMO kiddies who want to turn their character into a walking spreadsheet.

Not every RPG character needs to go through the MMO Min/Max process.

this is a sad misrepresentation.

combat logs came BEFORE mmo's.  If I remember right they cropped up from the DnD style games.  This is not a mmo kiddie thing, and you saying so only serves to highlight your lack of understanding on this subject.

[ladydesire]

Aether99 wrote...

- Archangel - wrote...

I'm not interested in being one of the MMO kiddies who want to turn their character into a walking spreadsheet.

Not every RPG character needs to go through the MMO Min/Max process.

this is a sad misrepresentation.

combat logs came BEFORE mmo's.  If I remember right they cropped up from the DnD style games.  This is not a mmo kiddie thing, and you saying so only serves to highlight your lack of understanding on this subject.

Combat logs probably share the same general interface that the conversation log and chat logs do; without a need for a chat log display and conversation log (the last 25 conversations in DA are stored in your character journal) it probably wasn't cost effective to put in a system like the old-style combat log. Not only that, in the character sheet there is a section that displays your Heroic Exploits (or something like that) that gives your overall damage done and lists the most powerful enemy you have defeated so far; Bioware could easily add a combat log in the character sheet that lists the combat stats for the last 25 battles if we ask them nicely for something like it.

[soteria]

Osprey39 wrote...

GhoXen wrote...

- Archangel - wrote...

I'm not interested in being one of the MMO kiddies who want to turn their character into a walking spreadsheet.

Not every RPG character needs to go through the MMO Min/Max process.

DnD has walking spreadsheets for characters. Dragon Age plans on making a pen&paper RPG based on the game. Min/Max is hardly exclusive to MMOs, nor were MMOs the first.

Yeah, actually MMOs did bring this crap to us.  I don't know how old you are but there was nothing to min/max in D&D back in the day.  There weren't that many variables.  For a melee character, you had armor class, to hit bonus and damage bonus.  That was it.  There were no secret formulae to dissect.  No talents to consider.  You rolled d20 to hit, if you hit you rolled the appropriate damage die for your weapon and added your bonus damage.  You also didn't have 20 different stats on items to consider.  Casters were the same way.  You cast a spell, the target got a saving throw (maybe) and then you rolled for damage.  It was pretty damn simple.

Even in EQ1, there was no min/maxing because Verant didn't tell anybody squat about the game mechanics.  It was all guesswork and I read forums back then as much as I do now and I cannot recall any conversations about what the optimal build was because there were no builds.  Every character of every class was basically the same except for their starting stats which were pretty insignificant and their equipment.  As far as the equipment went, it was more about what you could get than what you should equip because gear was pretty hard to come by relative to the MMOs of today.  Hell, people used to camp a mob spawn for days at a time hoping for the named mob to spawn so that they MIGHT get a certain item.

The first place I remember people talking about things that could be called min/maxing was AC1.  That was the first game where there was enough character customization options to do it.  DAoC also had it but it didn't really get cranked up there until they introduced spellcrafting.

So yeah, I have to say that min/maxing did start with MMOs.  I never got too heavily into playing D&D in my younger days but I played enough to know that the 2nd edition game didn't lend itself to that.  People didn't make characters based strictly on performance.  It was a roleplaying game and people made the kind of characters that they wanted to play or roleplay if you will.  They didn't  play to be more uber than the guy sitting next to them at the table.

I'm really not sure where your logic is in comparing a tabletop game with a GM right there to the PC version... are you really trying to say that because the tabletop RPers you used to play with didn't powergame, it didn't happen?

[MrFish]

I'm not even remotely sure why the "it's effort to add" argument even crept out of the woodwork. It's Already There, its just a debug system with no UI for players. It needs a UI..and..eerr, thats it.



Seeing as this dates back to Aurora, which is another maths based game simulation engine which also had a combat log to debug maths, then well, this one has one too. Dead clever, that.



Seeing as this game has had the maths moved from +1, +2 etc of DnD, which is easier to fiddle around with in your head, to 1.25%, +0.5 this +15% that, something tells me that its not as neat to do a quick decision whether something is better than something else. The summary comments in game aren't even remotely accurate sometimes. How much is A Little Bit, in game terms? is it something worth using, or does the talent need rebalancing because it has zero scaling?



This game is NOT just about the OC. When mods start rolling through the door you'll be wanting to know what the **** is going on with your abilities.

[Hurrrr]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

adastrum wrote...

Because there are more important things Bioware can be working on.

This

Dude...come on, this would be NOTHING in terms of workload. Just filtering data thats already there. Christ even KOTOR had a bloody log.

AND YES THEORYCRAFTING IS A ****ING LUDICROUS CHARGE TO PUSH AT PEOPLE WHO WANT IT!

How much theorycrafting went on in Kotor?

[MrFish]

Some people are dead smart, I tell you that.

[Dex1701]

So, they can add the log for those who want it, and the others can disable it. Done and done.

[cpip]

Osprey39 wrote...

Yeah, actually MMOs did bring this crap to us.  I don't know how old you are but there was nothing to min/max in D&D back in the day...

So yeah, I have to say that min/maxing did start with MMOs.  I never got too heavily into playing D&D in my younger days but I played enough to know that the 2nd edition game didn't lend itself to that.  People didn't make characters based strictly on performance.  It was a roleplaying game and people made the kind of characters that they wanted to play or roleplay if you will.  They didn't  play to be more uber than the guy sitting next to them at the table.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, laughs this hoary old grognard who remembers minmaxers in 1st Ed AD&D (Barbarians!  Thief-Acrobats!  If I combine this spell with this magic item and that strange equipment, plus the item in that Dragon magazine article...).

2nd Ed took Proficiencies and Weapon Specialization and threw on Magical School specialization, Priest Sphere selection, Kits, etc, etc...

Oh yes.  Oh, yes, there was Min-Maxing, and "exploits," and everything that we curse and lament now.  It was most certainly there! 

[Georg Zoeller]

It will never happen.

[cpip]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

It will never happen.

Well, that pretty well closes the book on it, don't it?

[Aether99]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

It will never happen.

I dont suppose there is a "why" answer in there somewhere?

While im not as for or against it as some.  combat logs were a nice little treat to have around.  Id just like to know the why behind the never.

[Samurai Pumpkin]

It would take away from the atmosphere of the game for me.

[F-C]

Aether99 wrote...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

It will never happen.

I dont suppose there is a "why" answer in there somewhere?

While im not as for or against it as some.  combat logs were a nice little treat to have around.  Id just like to know the why behind the never.

he explained it in as much detail as was needed here :

http://social.biowar.../9/index/245995




i really almost feel sorry for Georg because even though this is a masterpiece of a game and they should be getting tons of praise for it, this forum is just the same as all the others.

all you ever see is complaints and whines from a vocal minority who will troll endlessly.

i mean sit back and look at these forums for a while and think about it. this game has sold what? over a million copies? yet the forums are just covered in a couple dozen or so whiners.

the hundreds of thousands of people who love the game dont bother to come thank them because they are happily playing the game and enjoying their purchase.

it truly is a thankless job.

Modifié par F-C, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:41 .

[jadedjim]

i agree to disagree. floating numbers are not enough.