111 réponses à ce sujet

[TridentWhisper]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Krogans are valued on the danger of the enemies they fight. You cannot find a more dangerous enemy in the galaxy than the incomming reaper invasion.

If they somehow decline to fight the reapers, their social lore alone will scream "retcon" more than anything else will say 'plothole'.

No, it would stay consistent with the lore. Krogan live for thousands of years, and they only need to go one or two generations back to remember the Rachni Wars. Would you suddenly agree to fight together with the same people that killed your family?

Not to mention last time the Krogan saved the galaxy they got rewarded with the Genophage. So it would be logical that they are reluctant to fight besides Rachni, Turians and Salarians. I'm not saying Wrex wouldn't agree to help, but there are a lot of Krogan besides Wrex.

Modifié par TridentWhisper, 22 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[omgodzilla]

TridentWhisper wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Krogans are valued on the danger of the enemies they fight. You cannot find a more dangerous enemy in the galaxy than the incomming reaper invasion.

If they somehow decline to fight the reapers, their social lore alone will scream "retcon" more than anything else will say 'plothole'.

No, it would stay consistent with the lore. Krogan live for thousands of years, and they only need to go one or two generations back to remember the Rachni Wars. Would you suddenly agree to fight together with the same people that killed your family?

Not to mention last time the Krogan saved the galaxy they got rewarded with the Genophage. So it would be logical that they are reluctant to fight besides Rachni, Turians and Salarians. I'm not saying Wrex wouldn't agree to help, but there are a lot of Krogan besides Wrex.

This

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Devs have stated that ME3 will have impact on the decisions that you've made in the two games alot more than Me2 did because ME2 was a bridging game like DA2 was. So what major choices are made in the game?

Council, Rachni, Rewrite Geth, Genophage, Collector base, Tali's trial (Possibly). Now if we have a game that is unchanged on all these factors no matter what your choice was than I'd say that is a DA2. Both games call themselves RPGs but if choice doesn't change anything than it never mattered. I'm not saying that the results should go the way I want I"m just saying that the choices you made should affect how one side reacts. If you saved the Genophage data that shuld drastically change the way the Krogan react vs. if you destroyed it. To not have that is a poor decision.

That being said I'm sure that there will be significant outcomes in all the branches based on choice and in game actions

No, that's exactly what you're saying.

The developers can make any relationship between choices they want, whether you agree with their reasoning or not, and it will still be a choice-driven RPG. Simply because you want Paragon Action B to mitigate the blowback from Paragon Action A does not mean that, if it doesn't, it is a railroaded decision.

Forget the fact that preserving the genophage cure data is about the fastest way to ruin Wrex's reforms by undermining the entire basis of them: the only source implying that saving the data should make the Krogan happy to follow you despite hypothetical other choices making them disinclined is you.

[ExtremeOne]

If the Krogan do not want to join in the war then fine. But if they refuse because I saved the genophage info. then they can rot in the genophage hell .

[aimlessgun]

thatguy212 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Er...how exactly do they know you saved the Rachni? Did one of your crew sell you out?

Wrex would have told the krogan probably

And if Wrex wasn't around, like in my playthrough?


RE: Saving genophage data. I was more interested in using to blackmail the Turians/Salarians/Asari. Keeping the genophage data is renegade to the core. Just like saving the Rachni is easily seen as being ultrarenegade.

Very tempting for Krogan though, esp. Wreav I would imagine.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 22 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[KotorEffect3]

I think getting the quarians to work with the geth will be the hard alliance. The Krogan might need some convincing but in the end when you look at krogan culture what could be more glorious for them than fighting the reapers? That is about as big a fight as they are going to find.

[nevar00]

omgodzilla wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

omgodzilla wrote...

Vanaer wrote...

A true paragon still has the genophage data as a leverage.

in that case, maybe it becomes harder for you to recruit the Salarians or the Turians?

Peronally, I think it would be utterly rediculous for most species to give you a hard time about cooperating when facing galactic extinction.

The Krogan are an exception as I could certainly see most of them be stubborn like that.  And no I wouldn't be "mad", it would be a legitamate consequence to a decision I made.

Well the whole point of ME3 is to gather allies and save humanity. The gameinformer article said that gaining the loyalty of all the other races will depend on more than just completing missions. Which means that your desicions in the past will have dire consequences. There has to be some kind of difficulty with getting all those species to help you out otherwise it doesn't seem like your choices in the past games actually mattered.

Which is fine.  They just better not make it completely rediculous in the process of dragging out the "bringing everyone together" part of the game.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Devs have stated that ME3 will have impact on the decisions that you've made in the two games alot more than Me2 did because ME2 was a bridging game like DA2 was. So what major choices are made in the game?

Council, Rachni, Rewrite Geth, Genophage, Collector base, Tali's trial (Possibly). Now if we have a game that is unchanged on all these factors no matter what your choice was than I'd say that is a DA2. Both games call themselves RPGs but if choice doesn't change anything than it never mattered. I'm not saying that the results should go the way I want I"m just saying that the choices you made should affect how one side reacts. If you saved the Genophage data that shuld drastically change the way the Krogan react vs. if you destroyed it. To not have that is a poor decision.

That being said I'm sure that there will be significant outcomes in all the branches based on choice and in game actions

No, that's exactly what you're saying.

The developers can make any relationship between choices they want, whether you agree with their reasoning or not, and it will still be a choice-driven RPG. Simply because you want Paragon Action B to mitigate the blowback from Paragon Action A does not mean that, if it doesn't, it is a railroaded decision.

Forget the fact that preserving the genophage cure data is about the fastest way to ruin Wrex's reforms by undermining the entire basis of them: the only source implying that saving the data should make the Krogan happy to follow you despite hypothetical other choices making them disinclined is you.

Actually I'm not, try to stick with me on this one.

I realy don't care if keeping the genophage research makes things easier or harder to get Krogan support or if saving the Rachni will make it harder or easier to get other people to join me what I do care about is that there's a difference. If saving the research changes nothing about how hard or easy it is to recruit the Krogan than thats a bad thing because it makes the choice you made in the previous game meaningless which is also bad.

If you have your buddy Wrex as the clan leader instead of his brother who has no allegence to you that I would expect recruiting the Krogan to be alot different than recruiting them with Wrex's brother. If the research changes how hard or easy said scenario will be than alright but I don't want it to be the same regardless.

If saving the Rachni changes virtually nothing than saving or killing them makes no difference because it changes nothing in the game which is bad. Like DA2 it didn't matter whoose side you were on because in the end you fought everyone anyway and I don't want that kind of a game where my choices changed nothing.

So I hope my position is clear now.

[omgodzilla]

aimlessgun wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Er...how exactly do they know you saved the Rachni? Did one of your crew sell you out?

Wrex would have told the krogan probably

And if Wrex wasn't around, like in my playthrough?


RE: Saving genophage data. I was more interested in using to blackmail the Turians/Salarians/Asari. Keeping the genophage data is renegade to the core. Just like saving the Rachni is easily seen as being ultrarenegade.

Very tempting for Krogan though, esp. Wreav I would imagine.

Well if the Rachni are a part of the army which you use the fight the Reapers then why wouldn't the Krogan find out about them?

[omgodzilla]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I think getting the quarians to work with the geth will be the hard alliance. The Krogan might need some convincing but in the end when you look at krogan culture what could be more glorious for them than fighting the reapers? That is about as big a fight as they are going to find.

They can still fight the Reapers and refuse to ally with you or the Rachni. The only difference is that they would get their asses kicked since they would be fighting on their own. Doesn't seem too unlikely considering how proud and stubborn they are. I am not saying that all Krogan are like that but there are definitely a good number of them that are. Some grudges are just too deep to be cast aside.

[SalsaDMA]

TridentWhisper wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Krogans are valued on the danger of the enemies they fight. You cannot find a more dangerous enemy in the galaxy than the incomming reaper invasion.

If they somehow decline to fight the reapers, their social lore alone will scream "retcon" more than anything else will say 'plothole'.

No, it would stay consistent with the lore. Krogan live for thousands of years, and they only need to go one or two generations back to remember the Rachni Wars. Would you suddenly agree to fight together with the same people that killed your family?

Not to mention last time the Krogan saved the galaxy they got rewarded with the Genophage. So it would be logical that they are reluctant to fight besides Rachni, Turians and Salarians. I'm not saying Wrex wouldn't agree to help, but there are a lot of Krogan besides Wrex.

You're not thinking like a krogan.

[jbadm04]

anything can happen, but why should the Krogan be pissed because of the Rachni? As I understand the Krogan, they dont care. Heck, the Rachni were good enemies, something the Krogan value. The Salarians invented the genophage, but the Krogan are mostly pissed at Turians.

Im prepared for anything in ME3, but I realy dont see why Krogans should turn on my Shep, because she saved the Rachni.

[rolson00]

omgodzilla wrote...

Obviously Bioware has to balance the pros and cons of being Paragon or Renegade. One cannot be more benificial than the other. So would you be pissed if most of the Krogan clans refuse to help you out in the fight against the Reapers IF you saved the Rachni? Wrex and Clan Urdnot would still fight for you but I don't see how you could convince the rest of them to cooperate with the Rachni. There is just too much bad blood between them. Even Wrex was against the idea of letting the Queen live and he is one of the most open minded Krogan out there. So Paragons would get the Rachni and Clan Urdnot in their army whereas Renegades would get all of the Krogan clans. Seems like a fair trade to me. What do you think?

nah if you put the time in you should be able to get all like with the upgrades on the normadey

[thatguy212]

aimlessgun wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Er...how exactly do they know you saved the Rachni? Did one of your crew sell you out?

Wrex would have told the krogan probably

And if Wrex wasn't around, like in my playthrough?


RE: Saving genophage data. I was more interested in using to blackmail the Turians/Salarians/Asari. Keeping the genophage data is renegade to the core. Just like saving the Rachni is easily seen as being ultrarenegade.

Very tempting for Krogan though, esp. Wreav I would imagine.

Well Okeer knew you destroyed saren's cure, and Wreav knew you killed Wrex, So someone is telling the krogan what you've done

[omgodzilla]

jbadm04 wrote...

anything can happen, but why should the Krogan be pissed because of the Rachni? As I understand the Krogan, they dont care. Heck, the Rachni were good enemies, something the Krogan value. The Salarians invented the genophage, but the Krogan are mostly pissed at Turians.

Im prepared for anything in ME3, but I realy dont see why Krogans should turn on my Shep, because she saved the Rachni.

If you bring Wrex with you when you talk to the Rachni Queen, he says this:

"Millions of my ancestors died to put those things down. Don't let them come back!".

That implies that they actually do care. They care alot.

Modifié par omgodzilla, 22 avril 2011 - 10:49 .

[omgodzilla]

rolson00 wrote...

omgodzilla wrote...

Obviously Bioware has to balance the pros and cons of being Paragon or Renegade. One cannot be more benificial than the other. So would you be pissed if most of the Krogan clans refuse to help you out in the fight against the Reapers IF you saved the Rachni? Wrex and Clan Urdnot would still fight for you but I don't see how you could convince the rest of them to cooperate with the Rachni. There is just too much bad blood between them. Even Wrex was against the idea of letting the Queen live and he is one of the most open minded Krogan out there. So Paragons would get the Rachni and Clan Urdnot in their army whereas Renegades would get all of the Krogan clans. Seems like a fair trade to me. What do you think?

nah if you put the time in you should be able to get all like with the upgrades on the normadey

Which would result in Renegades having a much smaller and possibly weaker army. Saving the Rachni should result in more than just you having more soldiers at your command. It should cause a political ****storm.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

That means that Wrex cares it doesn't by default mean that the whole of Krogan society would. Both the Rachni and the Council ened up killing millions of Krogan but the only reason the Krogan fought the Rachni was because the Salarians said to then once they did that they were sterilized and nearly made extinct. Something tells me that Krogan society would look on the Rachni as an honorable war that was one on one. They are both resilient specie that thrive in harsh worlds and they both had their lives changed by the Salarians.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Krogan reaction was more positive than negative. The Rachni were afterall the a worthy enemy and that means alot to them.

[Akizora]

Wrex is Shepards spacebro along with Garrus, Wrex would not go ape**** over the Rachni being back..I'm sure he would relish the opportunity to fight them again if they became enemies. Krogans do not fear battle, they seek it out, the more enemies there are to fight - the happier they are. We do them a favor by giving them more to shoot.

[Almostfaceman]

omgodzilla wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...

anything can happen, but why should the Krogan be pissed because of the Rachni? As I understand the Krogan, they dont care. Heck, the Rachni were good enemies, something the Krogan value. The Salarians invented the genophage, but the Krogan are mostly pissed at Turians.

Im prepared for anything in ME3, but I realy dont see why Krogans should turn on my Shep, because she saved the Rachni.

If you bring Wrex with you when you talk to the Rachni Queen, he says this:

"Millions of my ancestors died to put those things down. Don't let them come back!".

That implies that they actually do care. They care alot.

Wrex also said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Reaper threat > Rachni

[omgodzilla]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

That means that Wrex cares it doesn't by default mean that the whole of Krogan society would. Both the Rachni and the Council ened up killing millions of Krogan but the only reason the Krogan fought the Rachni was because the Salarians said to then once they did that they were sterilized and nearly made extinct. Something tells me that Krogan society would look on the Rachni as an honorable war that was one on one. They are both resilient specie that thrive in harsh worlds and they both had their lives changed by the Salarians.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Krogan reaction was more positive than negative. The Rachni were afterall the a worthy enemy and that means alot to them.

But how do we know that alot of other Krogan don't feel the same as Wrex did? Why can't there be groups of Krogan out there who would hate you for saving the Rachni? If saving the Rachni doesn't make recruiting the Krogan harder then it should atleast make recruiting some of the council races more difficult. There has to be some kind of  negative consequence.

[omgodzilla]

Akizora wrote...

Wrex is Shepards spacebro along with Garrus, Wrex would not go ape**** over the Rachni being back..I'm sure he would relish the opportunity to fight them again if they became enemies. Krogans do not fear battle, they seek it out, the more enemies there are to fight - the happier they are. We do them a favor by giving them more to shoot.

I said that Wrex would join you no matter what. The only people going ape**** would be some of the Krogan clans.

[omgodzilla]

Almostfaceman wrote...

omgodzilla wrote...

jbadm04 wrote...

anything can happen, but why should the Krogan be pissed because of the Rachni? As I understand the Krogan, they dont care. Heck, the Rachni were good enemies, something the Krogan value. The Salarians invented the genophage, but the Krogan are mostly pissed at Turians.

Im prepared for anything in ME3, but I realy dont see why Krogans should turn on my Shep, because she saved the Rachni.

If you bring Wrex with you when you talk to the Rachni Queen, he says this:

"Millions of my ancestors died to put those things down. Don't let them come back!".

That implies that they actually do care. They care alot.

Wrex also said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Reaper threat > Rachni

Which makes Wrex a hypocrite. If you bring Liara along with you during the conversation with the Queen, she says "She could be a possible ally!" or something like that but Wrex doesn't give a crap. He still wants the Queen dead.

[TridentWhisper]

SalsaDMA wrote...

TridentWhisper wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Krogans are valued on the danger of the enemies they fight. You cannot find a more dangerous enemy in the galaxy than the incomming reaper invasion.

If they somehow decline to fight the reapers, their social lore alone will scream "retcon" more than anything else will say 'plothole'.

No, it would stay consistent with the lore. Krogan live for thousands of years, and they only need to go one or two generations back to remember the Rachni Wars. Would you suddenly agree to fight together with the same people that killed your family?

Not to mention last time the Krogan saved the galaxy they got rewarded with the Genophage. So it would be logical that they are reluctant to fight besides Rachni, Turians and Salarians. I'm not saying Wrex wouldn't agree to help, but there are a lot of Krogan besides Wrex.

You're not thinking like a krogan.

It's you who's not paying enough attention. If you listened to the Krogan dialogs through the games, especially on Tuchanka, you will understand that the Krogan aren't just a battle-hungry race who only cares about fighting strong enemies. Most of them hate how the other races have treated them and think that it was unjust.
This shows that Krogan can hold grudges that can last for millennia, ergo they will also probably refuse to ally themselves with the Rachni.

[SalsaDMA]

TridentWhisper wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

TridentWhisper wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Krogans are valued on the danger of the enemies they fight. You cannot find a more dangerous enemy in the galaxy than the incomming reaper invasion.

If they somehow decline to fight the reapers, their social lore alone will scream "retcon" more than anything else will say 'plothole'.

No, it would stay consistent with the lore. Krogan live for thousands of years, and they only need to go one or two generations back to remember the Rachni Wars. Would you suddenly agree to fight together with the same people that killed your family?

Not to mention last time the Krogan saved the galaxy they got rewarded with the Genophage. So it would be logical that they are reluctant to fight besides Rachni, Turians and Salarians. I'm not saying Wrex wouldn't agree to help, but there are a lot of Krogan besides Wrex.

You're not thinking like a krogan.

It's you who's not paying enough attention. If you listened to the Krogan dialogs through the games, especially on Tuchanka, you will understand that the Krogan aren't just a battle-hungry race who only cares about fighting strong enemies. Most of them hate how the other races have treated them and think that it was unjust.
This shows that Krogan can hold grudges that can last for millennia, ergo they will also probably refuse to ally themselves with the Rachni.

I'm curious what grudge you think they should hold against the Rachnii.

[Clonedzero]

personally i hope saving the rachni backfires.

their "song" was apparently twisted once by the reapers, why not a second time?