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[Statulos]

Is it just me or the unexplanied content of DA2 is not as effectively used as in DA:O?

I think the elements that were very dubious or directly weird were better employed in the plot of DA:O than in DA2. I´ll give examples.

In DA:O we have the Sacred Ashes and it´s not very clear what are they, how they work and why they art miracles. The only clear fact is that they cured Arl Eamon but we don´t know exactly how and why.
On the other hand, we don´t have a very clear idea of what the Dark Ritual is but it deffinetly worked. We don´t even know if it was used before, how was developed or what kind of magic was involved. Morover, the ritual also connects with the nature of Flemeth that is still undisclosed and that is fine too.

In DA2 I have only tracked two completely "WTF" elements in plot terms: the idol and the primaveal thaig in one hand and the experiments in Kirkwall. The first felt like an excuse to turn the villian into Son Goku and the second is not even played in the game, only refeered to.

While DA:O left me wondering, DA2 left me simply dissapointed in that regard.

[DemonLord4lf]

um... the sacred ashes were explained. They are the ashes of Andraste. So its holy magic or whatever you prefer that healed the Arl.

You are correct with the Dark Ritual.

[Riona45]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

um... the sacred ashes were explained. They are the ashes of Andraste. So its holy magic or whatever you prefer that healed the Arl.

If you take Oghren with you, he'll mention that there is a ton of lyrium in the chamber, so it is ambiguous about whether or not it's "holiness" or the influence of the lyrium.

[Statulos]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

um... the sacred ashes were explained. They are the ashes of Andraste. So its holy magic or whatever you prefer that healed the Arl.

You are correct with the Dark Ritual.

You can take a completely atheist approach to the DA franchise and it will be perfectly coherent. As stated, the Sacred Ashes are in a temple full of lyrium.

[DemonLord4lf]

Never heard that part. That does make sense then.

[Statulos]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

Never heard that part. That does make sense then.

I think DA:O is a quite coherent game with the lore. At no point you´re given a clear answer to the question about the Maker´s existence, so logicaly, the ashes will not be explained to work only because they´re divine.

[Big I]

I found the Enigma of Kirkwall intriguing, and was actually a little disappointed that one of the last Band of Three codex entries in Act 3 has the Band of Three chickening out and abandoning their quest to work out what was going on.

As for the Lyrium Idol, it made no sense. The Ashes were just as much a plot device, but what they did was very specific (heal people) and why they were used was logical (to heal Eamon). What does the idol do? It animates statues, drives people crazy, or essentially anything the writers want to happen without rhyme or reason. And why would Meredith even want a sword made of lyrium in the first place? Furthermore, she spent most of her time around mages and templars, people who are very familiar with lyrium. How come none of them sensed what the sword was made of?

[DemonLord4lf]

well, until i heard the part about lyrium, i always thought that that was the proof of the maker

[Icy Magebane]

The idol doesn't leave much room for interpretation. Whatever it actually is, it makes people insane. That's really the only thing that matters. And Kirkwall's enigma? Well, it's a decent underlying plot, but the only real purpose seems to be to justify the number of abominations and demons in the game (and the fact that abominations and mages can somehow summon abominations from nothing).

I'd say there are some decent mysteries in DA2 though... I wasn't impressed by the idol, but I'd like to know more about the Primeval Thaig itself... what kind of race actually lived there, and why the lyrium is corrupted. Etc.

[Big I]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

well, until i heard the part about lyrium, i always thought that that was the proof of the maker

The only proof for the Maker I know about is the talking statue who sees the future in the mage origin. She says "stone I am and stone I shall remain until the Maker returns to light their fires again."

If Leliana's not crazy, her vision might also count as proof.

[DemonLord4lf]

Yea... but i do believe she is insane , Perhaps Lyrium is the maker's power?

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, the way the Maker sounds in DA depicts Him as kind of a dick.

It says multiple times that he turned his back on humanity and wrote them off as a lost cause, just like he wrote of his first creations, the spirits. So... he's kind of fickle for an all powerful omnipotent being.

[Rifneno]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well, the way the Maker sounds in DA depicts Him as kind of a dick.

It says multiple times that he turned his back on humanity and wrote them off as a lost cause, just like he wrote of his first creations, the spirits. So... he's kind of fickle for an all powerful omnipotent being.

That's very true.  If the Maker is omniscient (which kind of goes along with omnipotent if for no other reason than if you're omnipotent, you can make yourself omniscient), why is he surprised that people do bad stuff?  He'd have known from the moment he made them that they were gonna do it.  But no, the Maker turns into Cartman and tells us "Screw you guys, I'm going home!"

DemonLord4lf wrote...

um... the sacred ashes were explained. They are the ashes of Andraste. So its holy magic or whatever you prefer that healed the Arl.

Actually I'm 99% sure that a dev (probably DG) went on record saying they haven't provided any official explanation for Leliana at this time.  The ashes explanation is just a popular community theory at the moment.  It seems like whatever reason they're going to give for Leliana it's going to be tied into a future plot that they don't want to reveal yet.  If it was just a matter of a retcon needing an explanation I'm sure they'd go with the ashes thing.  It's a lot more plausible than some of the other retcon explanations we've gotten.

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I found the Enigma of Kirkwall intriguing, and was actually a little disappointed that one of the last Band of Three codex entries in Act 3 has the Band of Three chickening out and abandoning their quest to work out what was going on.

I don't think they "chickened out."  If I remember right, two of the three were already dead and the last one was writing the final entry shortly before whatever they found claimed his life as well.

Icy Magebane wrote...

The idol doesn't leave much room for interpretation. Whatever it actually is, it makes people insane. That's really the only thing that matters. And Kirkwall's enigma? Well, it's a decent underlying plot, but the only real purpose seems to be to justify the number of abominations and demons in the game (and the fact that abominations and mages can somehow summon abominations from nothing).

I'd say there are some decent mysteries in DA2 though... I wasn't impressed by the idol, but I'd like to know more about the Primeval Thaig itself... what kind of race actually lived there, and why the lyrium is corrupted. Etc.

- It makes people insane, but in different ways.  Bartrand was... I don't really know any words to describe what madness claimed Bartrand.  But Meredith was a completely different kind of crazy.  It was mostly extreme paranoia.  But for instance Bartrand was totally gone, he didn't even seem to know you were there at the end whereas Meredith was quite lucid.  Extremely paranoid but lucid.  I still maintain that the idol is sentient.  Bartrand claimed it was telling him to worship it, and people were hearing Meredith talking to someone in her office but when they went in she was alone.

- The Enigma storyline has to serve a bigger purpose than explaining away the crazy mages.  Just saying Tevinter's atrocities weakened the veil could've accomplished that.  But they went beyond that, showing that the Tevinters were trying to do some magical feat far beyond anything we've seen.  Some theorize that Kirkwall is where they actually went into the Fade physically and tainted the Golden City.  From the stories about that incident vs. what the Enigma says... I'm not sure even that would explain what they were doing in Kirkwall.

[DemonLord4lf]

i think he's really a woman :-O

Sorry... couldn't resist <.<

[TJPags]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well, the way the Maker sounds in DA depicts Him as kind of a dick.

It says multiple times that he turned his back on humanity and wrote them off as a lost cause, just like he wrote of his first creations, the spirits. So... he's kind of fickle for an all powerful omnipotent being.

Most gods, fictional or otherwise, tend to be.

[DemonLord4lf]

TJPags wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well, the way the Maker sounds in DA depicts Him as kind of a dick.

It says multiple times that he turned his back on humanity and wrote them off as a lost cause, just like he wrote of his first creations, the spirits. So... he's kind of fickle for an all powerful omnipotent being.

Most gods, fictional or otherwise, tend to be.

But that's the chantry's belief. Leliana doesn't accept that idea, and neither do a few others. Leliana believes the Maker never left his children and is helping them as he see's fit to.

[Riona45]

DemonLord4lf wrote...
But that's the chantry's belief. Leliana doesn't accept that idea, and neither do a few others. Leliana believes the Maker never left his children and is helping them as he see's fit to.

And that's just her belief. 

[TJPags]

DemonLord4lf wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well, the way the Maker sounds in DA depicts Him as kind of a dick.

It says multiple times that he turned his back on humanity and wrote them off as a lost cause, just like he wrote of his first creations, the spirits. So... he's kind of fickle for an all powerful omnipotent being.

Most gods, fictional or otherwise, tend to be.

But that's the chantry's belief. Leliana doesn't accept that idea, and neither do a few others. Leliana believes the Maker never left his children and is helping them as he see's fit to.

Yes, well, some people believe Leliana is playing with less than a full deck . . .

[Maria Caliban]

Rifneno wrote...

If the Maker is omniscient (which kind of goes along with omnipotent if for no other reason than if you're omnipotent, you can make yourself omniscient), why is he surprised that people do bad stuff?

There's nothing to suggest the Maker is omniscient or omnipotent. Given that's a pretty rare combination within religions, I'd want evidence of it before assuming that was the case.

The Maker appears to be a creator god. After he makes something, twice he sits back to see what it would do. In the care of his first children, it didn't occur to him that if he wanted them to be like him, they required imagination.

[Statulos]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

If the Maker is omniscient (which kind of goes along with omnipotent if for no other reason than if you're omnipotent, you can make yourself omniscient), why is he surprised that people do bad stuff?

There's nothing to suggest the Maker is omniscient or omnipotent. Given that's a pretty rare combination within religions, I'd want evidence of it before assuming that was the case.

The Maker appears to be a creator god. After he makes something, twice he sits back to see what it would do. In the care of his first children, it didn't occur to him that if he wanted them to be like him, they required imagination.

I consider the Maker more of a demiurgic figure than an actual creator. The Lore never states that he created the cosmos, but only put "life" on it.

But yeah, you´re right: it´s way to easy to consider that the chantry and its beliefs can be equated 100% with christianism.

[Rifneno]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

If the Maker is omniscient (which kind of goes along with omnipotent if for no other reason than if you're omnipotent, you can make yourself omniscient), why is he surprised that people do bad stuff?

There's nothing to suggest the Maker is omniscient or omnipotent. Given that's a pretty rare combination within religions, I'd want evidence of it before assuming that was the case.

The Maker appears to be a creator god. After he makes something, twice he sits back to see what it would do. In the care of his first children, it didn't occur to him that if he wanted them to be like him, they required imagination.

Hmm.  You're right, I guess I'm assuming too much based on the obvious parallel.