618 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Joshd21 wrote...

I caved and bought the Witcher 2 today, hopefulley it will prvoide some hours of entertainment. I need something to do now that Rift is done and while I wait for SWTOR, which seems not to be released for another six months..

So I'm willing to try this game and hopefulley it kicks ass, or I'm going wish I bought the sims2.

How was Rift btw? Was there good end game content? Is it doing well for a MMO?

i didn't enjoy myself imo felt to much like WoW. After quitting WoW the last I want is more WoW.

[Carfax]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Then there should be no problem with having gender equality. Glad you agree with me!

I think I should have bolded Medieval influences and not Fantasy World

[Carfax]

Seagloom wrote...

What I *am* philosophically opposed to is the pretense that CD Projekt RED has no gender bias in its portrayal of women. Just because the Witcher takes place in a medieval dystopia does not mean those design choices, and the words their writer chose to describe the game's female characters, are above reproach.

Is there a pretense that CDPR has no gender bias?  Only for the blind and wilfully deluded perhaps.

It's patently obvious that the Witcher series is painfully gender biased.  Not only does it not allow you to play as a female (and there is plenty of sexism in the setting itself lets not forget), but as we've seen, there are plenty of attractive animated females in the game with scant clothing..

However, I don't think this bias is intentional on CDPR's part. It's merely a side effect of having (as far as I know) a completely male staff.

As I said before, it's normal and healthy for heterosexual men to desire and fantasize about attractive women..

More importantly however, this game isn't being marketed, or targeted towards people like you, therefore you shouldn't be surprised or angry that it is the way it is.

It's almost like becoming angry that playboy magazine doesn't feature pictures of nude men

[Travie]

Carfax wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

What I *am* philosophically opposed to is the pretense that CD Projekt RED has no gender bias in its portrayal of women. Just because the Witcher takes place in a medieval dystopia does not mean those design choices, and the words their writer chose to describe the game's female characters, are above reproach.

Is there a pretense that CDPR has no gender bias?  Only for the blind and wilfully deluded perhaps.

It's patently obvious that the Witcher series is painfully gender biased.  Not only does it not allow you to play as a female (and there is plenty of sexism in the setting itself lets not forget), but as we've seen, there are plenty of attractive animated females in the game with scant clothing..

However, I don't think this bias is intentional on CDPR's part. It's merely a side effect of having (as far as I know) a completely male staff.

As I said before, it's normal and healthy for heterosexual men to desire and fantasize about attractive women..

More importantly however, this game isn't being marketed, or targeted towards people like you, therefore you shouldn't be surprised or angry that it is the way it is.

It's almost like becoming angry that playboy magazine doesn't feature pictures of nude men

You should read the books the game is based on. 

They kept pretty close to the author's intent... so I guess he was sexist? meh

[Carfax]

I personally don't think that Sapkowski is sexist, anymore than George R Martin or any other dark fantasy author is. The most visceral and believable settings are typically the ones that have a firm basis in reality. Westeros itself is fashioned heavily from the Medieval period as well (and probably has even more sexism than the Witcher setting), and the Song of Ice and Fire series is perhaps the most popular modern day fantasy series in the World today, renowned (and acclaimed) and for its dark and gritty theme.

[orbit991]

Why is it always some touchy feely wanna be men that complain on behalf of the women, while the women go meh whatever. See women usually just think "what a dumb...." regarding another acting like a dits.
Somehow this is what I picture with some of you guys.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Dreadstruck]

Travie wrote...
They kept pretty close to the author's intent... so I guess he was sexist? meh

Not really. You got strong female lead and characters too. (some minor spoilers ahead)

Ciri - the would-be Witcher
Mistle - Ciri's lover(wooo lesbianism!) and a fellow hanza member
Yennefer - Geralt's lover and sorcereress
Maria "Milwa" Barring - The half-dryad archer (Damariel has a crush on her:lol:)
Toruviel - Elven fighter, self-explanatory
Rayla - The mercenary captain
Julia Abatemarco - A Free Company merc commander

You gotta admit it's just a slight exaggeration on CD Projekt's part with the women part. Not every of them should throw themselves at Geralt jusr for bringing them some flowers.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 07 mai 2011 - 11:20 .

[Seagloom]

Carfax wrote...

Is there a pretense that CDPR has no gender bias?  Only for the blind and wilfully deluded perhaps.

It's patently obvious that the Witcher series is painfully gender biased.  Not only does it not allow you to play as a female (and there is plenty of sexism in the setting itself lets not forget), but as we've seen, there are plenty of attractive animated females in the game with scant clothing..

However, I don't think this bias is intentional on CDPR's part. It's merely a side effect of having (as far as I know) a completely male staff.

As I said before, it's normal and healthy for heterosexual men to desire and fantasize about attractive women..

More importantly however, this game isn't being marketed, or targeted towards people like you, therefore you shouldn't be surprised or angry that it is the way it is.

It's almost like becoming angry that playboy magazine doesn't feature pictures of nude men

My point flew right over your head. Of course "the Witcher" setting is a sexist, misogynist hellhole. I already established my awareness of that several times. What you are not understanding is that it is possible to convey those aspects of a setting without meta-gender bias. If a woman in "the Witcher" universe dresses down because it befits her personality or station in life, I would not bat an eyelash. It makes sense a prostitute is shown dressing provocatively, for example.

What does not make sense is an experienced soldier such as Saskia not covering up her chest with armor. There is no logical reason for it. There is also no logical reason to make special mention of how each woman is hot. I am a big fan of GRRM's "A Song of Ice and Fire" books and love the new HBO series too. His portrayal of a medieval dystopia maintains internal consistency. Further to the point, there are credibly strong and influentional female characters that do not constantly fall prey to tired storytelling clichés.

Most games are marketed toward men. Bringing that up is utterly pointless. If people waited until something was marketed specifically toward them to comment, most of us would never get to say anything. The "Witcher 2" article was obviously trying to explain how those women are capable exceptions to that world's otherwise marginalized female populace. It went so far as to include a meta-note by Triss explaining how she justified her "Playboy" appearance. CD Projekt RED invited scrutiny with that article. They are clearly trying to come across as egalitarian in their portrayal of women; while simultaneously upholding their marketing toward men. What their marketing team and character designer does not seem to realize is the latter harms the former's credibility.

This sort of critique (from men too, as not everyone shares your views) can only help CDPR design better female characters in the future. I do not believe their staff is comprised of misogynists. Nor do I expect them to lead a crusade against sexually charged marketing in the games industry. That is unlikely to change in my lifetime, if ever. I do think CDPR could do better. If getting rid of "the Witcher's" sex cards is any indication, they might even want to.

It is normal and healthy for women to want equitable treatment in their entertainment; and feel as if they are portrayed as people rather than sexual objects for men's amusement.

Modifié par Seagloom, 07 mai 2011 - 12:22 .

[slimgrin]

I'm going to wait and see how women are portrayed in the game before I get too carried away with conclusions.

[Carfax]

Seagloom wrote...

My point flew right over your head. Of course "the Witcher" setting is a sexist, misogynist hellhole. I already established my awareness of that several times. What you are not understanding is that it is possible to convey those aspects of a setting without meta-gender bias. If a woman in "the Witcher" universe dresses down because it befits her personality or station in life, I would not bat an eyelash. It makes sense a prostitute is shown dressing provocatively, for example.

Meta-gender bias?  LOL, please remember I didn't take a womens' studies class will you

What does not make sense is an experienced soldier such as Saskia not covering up her chest with armor. There is no logical reason for it. There is also no logical reason to make special mention of how each woman is hot. I am a big fan of GRRM's "A Song of Ice and Fire" books and love the new HBO series too. His portrayal of a medieval dystopia maintains internal consistency. Further to the point, there are credibly strong and influentional female characters that do not constantly fall prey to tired storytelling clichés.

I agree, it doesn't make sense for Saskia's chest to be uncovered, much like it didn't make sense for Miranda to wear skin tight outfits and knee high boots; or a hundred other female characters in video games that wear skimpy clothing..

Logic flies out of the window when lust is a concern it seems......as I've been saying all a long.

This should hardly come as a revelation, looking at the way women (and females in general) have been depicted in fantasy/Sci-Fi settings throughout the years; particularly in visual mediums like comic books and video games.

Is it fair?  No....but as a consequence of male fixation on attractive females, it's fairly harmless..  And men aren't exactly immune to this phenomenon either seeing as male characters are typically portrayed as alpha males with bulging muscles..

Most games are marketed toward men. Bringing that up is utterly pointless.

It's not pointless.  It's a crucial part of the equation.  If you and your feminist friends don't buy the Witcher 2, CDPR won't give a sh!t, because you weren't the primary audience to begin with, nor the secondary, nor the tertiary LOL.  CDPR obviously didn't make the Witcher around your sensibilities, and if the Witcher 2 is any indication, they don't seem to be embracing the feminist mantra at all.

CD Projekt RED invited scrutiny with that article. They are clearly trying to come across as egalitarian in their portrayal of women; while simultaneously upholding their marketing toward men. What their marketing team and character designer does not seem to realize is the latter harms the former's credibility.

I'd hardly say they were trying to come across as egalitarian.  Until I see Geralt posing for Playgirl, I'm not prepared to go that far just yet.  It seems to me they were taking advantage of another male fantasy; women that are not only incredibly sexually alluring, but powerful as well.

Wonder woman syndrome. 

This sort of critique (from men too, as not everyone shares your views) can only help CDPR design better female characters in the future.

Better female characters to you probably means more realistic ones am I right?  Instead of Saskia being a doe eyed beauty, she would be like Brienne of Tarth, because only a woman like Brienne of Tarth could do such things.

And instead of being young and beautiful, Fillipa Eilhart could be a white haired crone, a more idealistic vessel for dread knowledge and wisdom, similar to Gandalf or any other male Sorcerer.

Thanks but no thanks!  I want the sexy babes! 
 

I do not believe their staff is comprised of misogynists.

You use that word with far too little care you know..  Preferring to see attractive women hardly makes a man a mysogynist.
 

It is normal and healthy for women to want equitable treatment in their entertainment; and feel as if they are portrayed as people rather than sexual objects for men's amusement.

Well, on the contrary, lots of women will play the Witcher 2, and they probably won't care about whether Saskia's chest is bare or not as their focus will most likely be on Geralt.

Modifié par Carfax, 07 mai 2011 - 01:44 .

[Damariel]

Avalla'ch wrote...

Travie wrote...
They kept pretty close to the author's intent... so I guess he was sexist? meh

Not really. You got strong female lead and characters too. (some minor spoilers ahead)

Ciri - the would-be Witcher
Mistle - Ciri's lover(wooo lesbianism!) and a fellow hanza member
Yennefer - Geralt's lover and sorcereress
Maria "Milwa" Barring - The half-dryad archer (Damariel has a crush on her:lol:)
Toruviel - Elven fighter, self-explanatory
Rayla - The mercenary captain
Julia Abatemarco - A Free Company merc commander

You gotta admit it's just a slight exaggeration on CD Projekt's part with the women part. Not every of them should throw themselves at Geralt jusr for bringing them some flowers.

Thanks dad....  ... hmmm Milwa :innocent:
but seriously Witcher saga have some strong female characters.

Modifié par Damariel, 07 mai 2011 - 01:52 .

[Mihura]

Avalla'ch wrote...

Not really. You got strong female lead and characters too. (some minor spoilers ahead)

Ciri - the would-be Witcher
Mistle - Ciri's lover(wooo lesbianism!) and a fellow hanza member
Yennefer - Geralt's lover and sorcereress
Maria "Milwa" Barring - The half-dryad archer (Damariel has a crush on her[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie])
Toruviel - Elven fighter, self-explanatory
Rayla - The mercenary captain
Julia Abatemarco - A Free Company merc commander

You
gotta admit it's just a slight exaggeration on CD Projekt's part with
the women part. Not every of them should throw themselves at Geralt jusr
for bringing them some flowers.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

That is why Andrzej Sapkowski does a good job, even if the world is sexist.

The problem is that the game makes a experience soldier with a face of a princess and that is impossible. Yes she can be beautiful but how about scars and a fullplata armor?

If a remember correctly Rayla has a nasty scar on the face, where was this in the first game? and Triss is suppose to have a scar in the neck, where is this in the second game? I remember people complaining about Geralt being to beautiful and handsome because he was not like that in the lore. So why aren't people complaining about this? forget it, I already know the answer.

slimgrin wrote...

I'm going to wait and see how women are portrayed in the game before I get too carried away with conclusions.

Like I said the design kinda of fails but I have to see their personalty to really judge.

Carfax wrote...

Well, on the contrary, lots of women will
play the Witcher 2, and they probably won't care about whether Saskia's
chest is bare or not as their focus will most likely be on
Geralt.

Who? I care about her design and I believe they can do better. The same goes to a lot of people and not only woman.

[Damariel]

Mihura wrote...

Avalla'ch wrote...

Not really. You got strong female lead and characters too. (some minor spoilers ahead)

Ciri - the would-be Witcher
Mistle - Ciri's lover(wooo lesbianism!) and a fellow hanza member
Yennefer - Geralt's lover and sorcereress
Maria "Milwa" Barring - The half-dryad archer (Damariel has a crush on her[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie])
Toruviel - Elven fighter, self-explanatory
Rayla - The mercenary captain
Julia Abatemarco - A Free Company merc commander

You
gotta admit it's just a slight exaggeration on CD Projekt's part with
the women part. Not every of them should throw themselves at Geralt jusr
for bringing them some flowers.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

That is why Andrzej Sapkowski does a good job, even if the world is sexist.

The problem is that the game makes a experience soldier with a face of a princess and that is impossible. Yes she can be beautiful but how about scars and a fullplata armor?

If a remember correctly Rayla has a nasty scar on the face, where was this in the first game? and Triss is suppose to have a scar in the neck, where is this in the second game? I remember people complaining about Geralt being to beautiful and handsome because he was not like that in the lore. So why aren't people complaining about this? forget it, I already know the answer.

slimgrin wrote...

I'm going to wait and see how women are portrayed in the game before I get too carried away with conclusions.

Like I said the design kinda of fails but I have to see their personalty to really judge.

Carfax wrote...

Well, on the contrary, lots of women will
play the Witcher 2, and they probably won't care about whether Saskia's
chest is bare or not as their focus will most likely be on
Geralt.

Who? I care about her design and I believe they can do better. The same goes to a lot of people and not only woman.

About Rayla... I don't think that Rayla in books and Rayla in first game is the same person.
About Triss... she's got magic I think... and it wouldn't be first time when sorceress changes own appearance.

Modifié par Damariel, 07 mai 2011 - 02:39 .

[Brockololly]

slimgrin wrote...

I'm going to wait and see how women are portrayed in the game before I get too carried away with conclusions.

^This.

Although, the article in question is just plain painful to read with lines like this:

She also grew into the kind of beauty men will follow into battle without hesitation no matter the odds - smooth-skinned with shining hair, dark brows, a compelling gaze, shapely lips and full breasts that perfectly complement her gently rounded hips and shapely legs.

I mean, really? Really? You're going to follow a soldier lady into battle cause she's a hottie? The sexualized look of all the women in that article is a bit much, but at the same time better than a good chunk of games. Perhaps the moral of the story is to ignore crappy marketing?

Modifié par Brockololly, 07 mai 2011 - 02:40 .

[Khayness]

Brockololly wrote...

I mean, really? Really? You're going to follow a soldier lady into battle cause she's a hottie?

Femine viles can be used as mind control IRL aswell, what's the problem with that?

[Mihura]

Damariel wrote...

About Rayla... I don't think that Rayla in books and Rayla in first game is the same person.
About Triss... she's got magic I think... and it wouldn't be first time when sorceress changes own appearance.

Rayla is the same I think and Triss cannot heal the scar according to the lore, she is even allergic to magic.

Brockololly wrote...

She also grew into the kind of beauty men will follow into battle without hesitation no matter the odds - smooth-skinned with shining hair, dark brows, a compelling gaze, shapely lips and full breasts that perfectly complement her gently rounded hips and shapely legs.

I mean, really? Really? You're going to follow a soldier lady into battle cause she's a hottie? The sexualized look of all the women in that article is a bit much, but at the same time better than a good chunk of games. Perhaps the moral of the story is to ignore crappy marketing?

That part is so baddddd, I decide to ignore the dumb marketing but they like to poke people. <_<

[k177sh0t]

New video just came out



enjoy

Day one buy for me on steam

[slimgrin]

"She also grew into the kind of beauty men will follow into battle without hesitation no matter the odds - smooth-skinned with shining hair, dark brows, a compelling gaze, shapely lips and full breasts that perfectly complement her gently rounded hips and shapely legs, a nubile torso with gleaming white skin like alabaster, firm and rounded buttocks, full dimpled cheeks, slender calves and dainty knees below voluptuous, tender thighs, silky hair and..."

Fixed. 

I'd follow that into battle.

Seriously though, I don't begrudge the artists an opportunity to embelish. And yes, their marketing leaves much to be desired, but I don't think people should assume it accurately represents the game. We should recognize by now they have a nonchalant attitiude toward sex.

Modifié par slimgrin, 07 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[Archaven]

@k177sh0t
already watched that much earlier.. you should look at the latest information about women in witcher 2

[Zjarcal]

Brockololly wrote...

She also grew into the kind of beauty men will follow into battle without hesitation no matter the odds - smooth-skinned with shining hair, dark brows, a compelling gaze, shapely lips and full breasts that perfectly complement her gently rounded hips and shapely legs.

I mean, really? Really? You're going to follow a soldier lady into battle cause she's a hottie? The sexualized look of all the women in that article is a bit much, but at the same time better than a good chunk of games. Perhaps the moral of the story is to ignore crappy marketing?

That is painful indeed. All those descriptions are pretty painful to read.

I should point that admiring hot women isn't something I have a problem with (that should be pretty obvious to anyone who knows me... ), but treating them like this does seem quite bad.

Crappy marketing should always be ignored though. How far that marketing is from the game itself, well, we don't know.

[Chromie]

Zjarcal wrote...
Crappy marketing should always be ignored though.

Someone clearly didn't ignore CDProjekt's crappy marketing is seems.

Modifié par Ringo12, 07 mai 2011 - 05:58 .

[Addai]

NKKKK wrote...

Don't like, don't play, this series doesn't have to cater to your particular brand if it didn't promise so, which can't be said about Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

Damn fan girls...

Heh.  Women are so pesky when they're doing something other than baring their cleavage.  :innocent:

[Addai]

Pups_of_war_76 wrote...

Pretty environments alone do not a quality RPG make.

No, but they don't hurt.  Stuff like the fact that they thought about weather, terrain and humidity in placing trees and plants and generating the interactivity of the world, that's frackin cool.  You should want to spend hours in a place, if you're going to spend hours in a place.

I had no doubt about this re TW2, though.  The art in their first game was so beautiful.

[Addai]

Travie wrote...

You should read the books the game is based on. 

They kept pretty close to the author's intent... so I guess he was sexist? meh

I read The Last Wish, and actually yes, I didn't like his portrayal of women, either.  Can't really put my finger on it.  There are just times you know that you're seeing/ reading about women as men see them, rather than as they really are.

It's not a gamebreaker for me, though obviously operating in a man's vision is alienating to an extent.  Was it really necessary to have the cleavage plate armor?  That's so junior high.

[gastovski]

i wish every woman would be naked in this game .it would be much more entertaining.