912 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

rynluna wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...peoples sexual orientation is a fairly large part of who they are.

See this is why threads like these keep popping up as well as people rehashing the same arguments over and over again.  Many of you are uninformed or just have hang ups with stereotypes of gay people.  Not everyone's sexual orientation is part of who they are. 

Does every straight person declare to everyone that they are straight all the time and voice how proud they are of being heterosexually privileged?  Nope. Same goes for gay people, although their privileges are quite limited.

If all it takes for someone to be labeled as straight, is that they have been in hetero relationships and stumbled on their words around the opposite sex then a whole damn lot of us gays would be labeled straight too.

There's not going to be some huge "change" to a person's character if they are open to s/s romance. People can claim they are open minded and not homophobic all they want, but the truth is this change bothers some and it makes them uncomfortable.

you're taking what i said out of context. yes your sexual orientation is a large part of who you are. does that make all straight people the same? nope. does that make all gay people the same? nope. its just a large factor in self identity. therefore being a large part of who you are.

the change only bothers me because its retconning established characters. if shepard was able to be gay in the first game i'd have absolutely no problem with it. i didnt mind it in DA2, didnt mind it in DA:O. why? because those characters are established as being any sexual preference.

you're doing a whole lot of assuming of how i think and its alittle insulting actually.  breaking the integrity of the writing and its consistancy between the three games to allow gay relationships in the game is fairly dumb. its a minor thing to add into the game and it completely ruins the sense of consistancy between the three games.

you're pushing your agenda at the sacrifce of the games writing which is wrong. its the THIRD GAME IN THE SERIES, why would everyone suddenly come out at once? its ridiculous and horrible writing to cater to a specific group of people. its just bad writing. thats what i care about, i dont care about them being gay, i care about the characters being drastically changed for pure fanservice.

[Wittand25]

jeweledleah wrote...
its not exactly ended, if you stay faithful.  they say as much in their letters and you say as much by keeping their picture on your table and gazing at it before heading off for a suicidal assault.

When Shepard and the VS are reunited in ME3, they have barely spoken with each other for three years (from the point of view of the VS) so I am pretty certain that the VS will insist on taking it slow.

no, it will not be easy to write it as new, as either straight or gay.  why?  there is no history.  with VA being romanced, there's a hostory of the relationship, of loss, of trying to move on - and failing.  if you didn't romance them - it means you told them you weren't interested and they got over shepard long before /he/she died.  the dynamic is completely different.

That is not even true for the opposite sex VS since you could terminate a romance long before it came up. And even if you do not romance the VS you still have nearly the same history with them, sans the two times they slept with Shepard before the Normandy got blown up.

moreover - deaths.  variables.  people are having doubts that Bioware will manage to handle all the possible deaths and all the possible outcomes of plotlines in a satisfactory way, becasue there are just so many little differences. people are afraid that less popular characters will be relegated to cameos, as it is.

The VS is promised to be part of ME3 in some fashion. Most of the variables regarding the VS could be and probably must be swept under the carpet anyway since I doubt the import has even data on when and how the VS was rejected if you do not romance them. And so similar to Garrus a not romanced VS will default to being best buddy with Shepard.

it can be done.  its not impossible.  but it will require more time and resources then you think.  I'd say several extra months of development at least, since you really do need to concider all who lives or dies and make sure that LI avaialbility is about equal for either gender, and that's before even attempting to make sure that same sex availability is about equal - something that they already failed to manage ( you have 2 romantic options for each shepard in ME1, but straight males get 2 girls to chose from, gay males get squat, gay females get one option and straight females get one option - its even in that its 2 options per gender, but its not even in terms of sexuality.  ME2 has NO options for same sex romance, though it still sticks to same number of options for female vs male Shepard).  they need to make sure that new players aren't punished - remember the whole ME3 is a good point to start a thrilogy?  if they add an option to pick your virmire survivor in ME3 interactive comic, they now need to adress people, who started with ME2 and didn't use save edits or preexisting imports from masseffectsaves.com, and might want to keep their ME2 imported characters (and no matter what they do with a comic, it won't be able to adress every possible variable in ME1 and ME2 - just like playstation comic didn't adress a lot of the variables, including the outcome of a story specific mission on Feros)

We are only talking about the VS and not all NPCs of ME1 and 2 here. The ME2 crew left and most of them wont return (check the Belgian preview that is floating around). Regarding the VS there are only three variables (Who ?, Romanced ?, Cheated on ?) Addressing these three in the first dialog  and not bring them up later (as was done for Garrus in ME2)  would be hardly that time consuming. In fact making them bisexual and available even if you did not romance them before would safe resources since the romance arc would be available to many more players. Also neither ME1 or 2 had the equal amount of LIs for every Shepard so why should ME3 be required to have it. Allowing the VS to be pursued in an s/s romance would be no problem if there is at least one other s/s Li per gender.

edited to add - closeted homosexuality and don't ask don't tell in ME universe.. I hope to god this is not the case.  I honestly don't think it is the case. 

It does not need to be the case. All a not romanced VS would need to say is that they did not approach Shepard because they thought there would be time enough once Saren was caught. ( The inconsistencies caused from that are far smaller than any change in game mechanics or story that we already saw in the ME1 to 2 transition.

Modifié par Wittand25, 23 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
I should have used the word expanded in terms of his sexuality, although his personality in general was rewritten which is why I used that word to describe Anders in DA2.  he wasn't expanded, he wasn't developped, he was plain rewritten.

not showing atraction in terms of ME1 characters, at least, is important.  if they are shepard sexual, why do they only show atraction to oposite sex Shepard and not the same sex?  why are they so clumsy about it and cannot help BUT reveal it, and yet somehow they manage to keep it in and be fully professional and not uneasy at all with same sex shepard?  that atraction is not there from the start, sorry. while being bisexual might not be out of character, hiding atraction is NOT in character.  so you cannot just handwave it away and say - they always were, thye were just in a closet/hid it.  if that subplot is added, it has to be done differently and it cannot use the same dynamic as pre-existing relationships.

it was bad enough with Tali. 

You shouldn't have used the word "retcon." at all. Though yes his personality in general is very different (*that* could be seen as a retcon) his sexuality though? No. We didn't know enough about it to be claiming "retcon". 

Because the plot demands? Because Shepard never says anything?

They revealed it because the developers let them. It's as simple as that. 

Hiding attraction is not in character? For who? 

Please do tell me who hiding attraction wouldn't be in character for. All of them. With reasons why. Because I'm pretty sure they'll be at least 4 characters that it will be in character for. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 07:37 .

[jeweledleah]

Vormaerin wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

edited to add - as far as characters being expanded in general - in real life people don't fluctuate so wildly once they figure out who they are atracted to, they only fluctuate as they are figuring things out.  you can argue that ME characters haven't completely figured it out yet.  I'm personaly not seeing it, but it can be used as an argument.

Just when are they allowed to be "figuring it out", hmmm?   I know several people who "figured it out" after years of marriage.  I'm afraid that your views are overly simplistic.    There's no magical point where a person realizes who they are and stops growing and changing.

pretty sure they already knew on some level and just didnt want to admit it to themselves.  Modern society's attitute towards homosexuality is not helpful either

people are always growing and changing, but you don't just turn gay or straight or bi on a whim, its not as simple as that. 

edited @ Rizaki.  lets take Ashley, for example.  she starts flirting with male Shepard straight out of Eden prime.  she makes oops comments on the Citadel, she worries and waits for Shepard in medibay, she slips up in private conversation and then has to correct herself back into being professional.  only with male shepard. 
same with Kaidan and femshep actualy, the way their romances are written in ME1 is that they are atracted from the start and instead of hitting on them and starting the relationship?  you have to actively end it.  its a completely different mechanic from ME2 and in some ways its a more subtle, functional version of Anders always being in love with Hawke.  (who by the way even if you don't romance him, gives off hints that he still feels something)

that have zero ability to hide the way they feel unless you nip it in a bud.  but only with oposit sex Shepard.  handwaving it away is sloppy.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 23 avril 2011 - 07:37 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

The solution is simple here. Don't copy what DA does and stick with the ME formula. Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

[Dazaster Dellus]

ReconTeam wrote...

The solution is simple here. Don't copy what DA does and stick with the ME formula. Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

This.

[Vormaerin]

jeweledleah wrote...

pretty sure they already knew on some level and just didnt want to admit it to themselves.  Modern society's attitute towards homosexuality is not helpful either

people are always growing and changing, but you don't just turn gay or straight or bi on a whim, its not as simple as that. 

Okay, let's pretend you are right.   How does that stop Ashley from finally realizing she's been in denial or whatever after her reunion with femshep?

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
edited @ Rizaki.  lets take Ashley, for example.  she starts flirting with male Shepard straight out of Eden prime.  she makes oops comments on the Citadel, she worries and waits for Shepard in medibay, she slips up in private conversation and then has to correct herself back into being professional.  only with male shepard. 
same with Kaidan and femshep actualy, the way their romances are written in ME1 is that they are atracted from the start and instead of hitting on them and starting the relationship?  you have to actively end it.  its a completely different mechanic from ME2 and in some ways its a more subtle, functional version of Anders always being in love with Hawke.  (who by the way even if you don't romance him, gives off hints that he still feels something)

that have zero ability to hide the way they feel unless you nip it in a bud.  but only with oposit sex Shepard.  handwaving it away is sloppy.

And again...does Kaidan not do that in her place? Maybe she thought Kaidan was blocking her (And Shepard was more likely to be interested inhim over her) and didn't want to get in the way. [Vice Versa for Kaidan with the additional block of Liara!] 

So again...how does that stop them from being attracted to Shepard? 

Anders is obsessed. (Reminded me of Liara who seemed to like Shepard no matter what he/her did). 

One could argue she also shows signs of being attracted to Shepard even if he/she doesn't feel the same. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 07:42 .

[Vormaerin]

ReconTeam wrote...

The solution is simple here. Don't copy what DA does and stick with the ME formula. Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

Considering the ME formula is that no one who counts is apparently gay, I think that's at least as silly as the DA option.

[Ryzaki]

Vormaerin wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

The solution is simple here. Don't copy what DA does and stick with the ME formula. Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

Considering the ME formula is that no one who counts is apparently gay, I think that's at least as silly as the DA option.

It is in ME out of 9 LIs the only bisexuals aren't really "Female." and there are no gays at all. In DA2 out of 4 LIs they are all bisexual. 

At least DA2 acknowledges bisexuality without the cheap "they're not really females!" BS. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

Vormaerin wrote...
Considering the ME formula is that no one who counts is apparently gay, I think that's at least as silly as the DA option.

So you're saying we need some sort of quota for gay/bi party members in ME3?

I am offended by the lack of people from the great nation of Azerbaijan in Mass Effect, where are the Azerbaijanis?

[AlexMBrennan]

Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

In real life Bob is one specific person ("Bob"). Shepard, on the other hand, is not (Shepard could be "Alice" or "Bob" or "Charlie" or ...).

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
edited @ Rizaki.  lets take Ashley, for example.  she starts flirting with male Shepard straight out of Eden prime.  she makes oops comments on the Citadel, she worries and waits for Shepard in medibay, she slips up in private conversation and then has to correct herself back into being professional.  only with male shepard. 
same with Kaidan and femshep actualy, the way their romances are written in ME1 is that they are atracted from the start and instead of hitting on them and starting the relationship?  you have to actively end it.  its a completely different mechanic from ME2 and in some ways its a more subtle, functional version of Anders always being in love with Hawke.  (who by the way even if you don't romance him, gives off hints that he still feels something)

that have zero ability to hide the way they feel unless you nip it in a bud.  but only with oposit sex Shepard.  handwaving it away is sloppy.

And again...does Kaidan not do that in her place? Maybe she thought Kaidan was blocking her (And Shepard was more likely to be interested inhim over her) and didn't want to get in the way. [Vice Versa for Kaidan with the additional block of Liara!] 

So again...how does that stop them from being attracted to Shepard? 

except they ask when it comes to Liara.  actualy ask.  if you try to play them both - they force a confrontation. so why do they only do it when it comes to Liara? 

becasue it wasn't originaly written that way, and to add it in, just like that, and make frienships paths into even more of a joke then they already are?

I'm sorry, but of all the ways to expand existing characters as bisexual, making them suddently realize that they were so very wrong and they always loved shepard and be all pushy ala Anders?  its gotta be one of the worst.

[Vormaerin]

Ryzaki wrote...

It is in ME out of 9 LIs the only bisexuals aren't really "Female." and there are no gays at all. In DA2 out of 4 LIs they are all bisexual. 

At least DA2 acknowledges bisexuality without the cheap "they're not really females!" BS. 

There are five romances in DA2 and one of them is definitely pure straight (Sebastian).

And if you count the two love interests that don't get "achievements", you have an ME bisexual (Kelly Chambers) and another DA straight (Aveline, who has as fully developed a flirt conversation tree as anyone else, she just picks someone else in the end).

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
except they ask when it comes to Liara.  actualy ask.  if you try to play them both - they force a confrontation. so why do they only do it when it comes to Liara? 

becasue it wasn't originaly written that way, and to add it in, just like that, and make frienships paths into even more of a joke then they already are?

I'm sorry, but of all the ways to expand existing characters as bisexual, making them suddently realize that they were so very wrong and they always loved shepard and be all pushy ala Anders?  its gotta be one of the worst.

They ask because at that point Shepard has shown interest in *them* something you can't do as a same gendered Shepard. Shepard doesn't flirt with Ash as a female (or Kaidan as a male). 

*That's* why they do it when it comes to Liara. They have better chances over Liara than each other. (seeing as Ash only goes for dude shep who *cannot* express an interest in Kaidan, and Kaidan as a male who met Shepard first and talked with her and flirted with her (if you haven't shut him down) probably sees himself as having a better chance than Liara.) 

So yeah. I'm still not getting your point. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 07:55 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
In real life Bob is one specific person ("Bob"). Shepard, on the other hand, is not (Shepard could be "Alice" or "Bob" or "Charlie" or ...).

But many of Shepard's characteristics are pre-determined. What's wrong with this being one of them?

[Ryzaki]

Vormaerin wrote...
There are five romances in DA2 and one of them is definitely pure straight (Sebastian).

And if you count the two love interests that don't get "achievements", you have an ME bisexual (Kelly Chambers) and another DA straight (Aveline, who has as fully developed a flirt conversation tree as anyone else, she just picks someone else in the end).

I like to pretend Seb doesn't exist.  But yes I see your point. 

We can't count Varric? You can flirt with him.  (Unsuccessfully but hey I tried! I wanted that dwarven stallion.  ) 

So ME has one female bisexual and DA2 has 2 straight options (one male and one female). Though someone will try to say Aveline is bisexual because she gave female Shepard a kiss on the cheek in gratitude and dared to ask "what do you think we'd be like together?" that apparently makes someone bisexual now.  

[Vormaerin]

ReconTeam wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...
In real life Bob is one specific person ("Bob"). Shepard, on the other hand, is not (Shepard could be "Alice" or "Bob" or "Charlie" or ...).

But many of Shepard's characteristics are pre-determined. What's wrong with this being one of them?

Very little about Shepard is actually predetermined regarding his or her personality.   Just about his or her history.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

In real life Bob is one specific person ("Bob"). Shepard, on the other hand, is not (Shepard could be "Alice" or "Bob" or "Charlie" or ...).

And that's where you're wrong: Shepard, male or female, is for the most part an already defined character. You can make choices, sure, but only within already defined parameters.

E: Argh, ninja'd by Recon!

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 23 avril 2011 - 07:52 .

[Ryzaki]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

In real life Bob is one specific person ("Bob"). Shepard, on the other hand, is not (Shepard could be "Alice" or "Bob" or "Charlie" or ...).

And that's where you're wrong: Shepard, male or female, is for the most part an already defined character. You can make choices, sure, but only within already defined parameters.

Hello Hawke! 

So yah Shepard's female self can be bisexual but male self can't? Despite them being identical in everything else? Not buying it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 avril 2011 - 07:52 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ryzaki wrote...
Not buying it. 

What don't you buy about it? Seems pretty clear.

[Saeran]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Not buying it. 

What don't you buy about it? Seems pretty clear.

Double standard's bro, still banging those 7 gram rocks?

[Ryzaki]

ReconTeam wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Not buying it. 

What don't you buy about it? Seems pretty clear.

Shepard's sexuality isn't predefined. If it was Shepard would have a LI. 

And my asexual Shepard would be impossible to play. I'm playing him quite well though. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ryzaki wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Everybody isn't bisexual in real life either and there shouldn't be a quota for gay or bisexual party members.

In real life Bob is one specific person ("Bob"). Shepard, on the other hand, is not (Shepard could be "Alice" or "Bob" or "Charlie" or ...).

And that's where you're wrong: Shepard, male or female, is for the most part an already defined character. You can make choices, sure, but only within already defined parameters.

Hello Hawke! 

So yah Shepard's female self can be bisexual but male self can't? Despite them being identical in everything else? Not buying it. 

Asari don't really count and Kelly is just a small extra.

Also, the story goes that Mark van der Loo didn't want his likeness to be able to be gay, although I can't verify that.

[Vormaerin]

Ryzaki wrote...


So ME has one female bisexual and DA2 has 2 straight options (one male and one female). Though someone will try to say Aveline is bisexual because she gave female Shepard a kiss on the cheek in gratitude and dared to ask "what do you think we'd be like together?" that apparently makes someone bisexual now.  

Apparently, ME subscribes to the 'only girls can be gay' rule. 

And if anyone claims that Aveline being momentarily curious after you practically hurl yourself at her feet....which she completely misses with a "I know there was never anything there (except for the dozen blatant flirts tossed her way!)"....makes her bisexual is just being a doofus.